[TheForge] Triangles

Thu May 6 15:48:00 2004

Oh heck NO Dan!

The thread probably died because you answered the question so well. Doesn't
mean there won't be more questions after folk get a chance to research and
think on it though. <grin>

Frosty
------------------------
If it ain't forged
it ain't real.
Wrought iron is.
The FrostWorks

Meadow Lakes, AK.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Hayes" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:39 PM
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Triangles

> Didactic and pedagogical? Sorry I came off that way. And I apologize if I
> offended anyone, which I think I might have since I seemed to have killed
> the thread. I really didn't mean to do that.
>
> Anyway, if you want something more entertaining, try this link:
> http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc98/10_10_98/bob2.htm
> It's about the metallurgy of Caribbean steel drums, and it does address
the
> effect of carbon content and heat treatment on the sound of the drum.
>
> Dan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]
> On Behalf Of Michael H. Murphy
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 6:03 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [TheForge] Triangles
>
> Dang! I though I was getting didactic and pedagogical.  But he's right;
> different steels have different qualities -- in malleability, hardness,
and
> acoustics.
>
> I agree with researching it on the Web, for all kinds of ideas and
> techniques.  But it still doesn't count until you've actually put it
> together and listened to it.
>
> Mike Murphy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]
> On Behalf Of Daniel T. Hayes
> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 8:37 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [TheForge] Triangles
>
> Bob,
>
> The acoustic properties of steels are affected by many factors, and
> "scientific proof", along with a lot of specific data is available if you
> know where to look. You might want to consider looking into a
metallurgical
> reference book such as Metals Handbook or a text on ultrasonic inspection.
>
> The two acoustic properties that come to mind as major players in
> determining the sound of a triangle or bell are acoustic velocity
> (longitudinal/compression, transverse/shear and surface)and acoustic
> impedance. You can find this kind of data tabulated in metallurgical
texts,
> and if you do a web search, I'm sure you could come up with a number of
> narrowly focused research papers on the subject. In any event, you'll find
> that carbon content, alloying elements, heat treatment and
deformation/work
> (both cold and hot) all play significant roles. In each case, you'll find
> that the answer lies in how each of these factors affects the crystalline
> structure(s) of the metal. An FCC lattice can be expected to transmit
sound
> differently from a BCC lattice or a highly strained martensitic structure,
> for example. Throw in the fact that most steels are a mixture of phases
and
> the problem gets really complex. Acoustic impedance is probably the most
> complicated acoustic property of all. You're best bet is probably to
> research metallurgical texts for information on acoustic properties.
>
> Dan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]
> On Behalf Of [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 7:48 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Triangles
>
> Thanks for the reply Steve. But what I am really
> interested in is the scientific proof that says that
> using higher carbon steel produces a different
> ring than lower carbon steel and also why quenching
> would affect the ring. These thoughts are often
> presented as a given. If the proof is that common
> it should be easy to show. Listening to various samples
> is  subjective.
>
> Bob
> ____
>
>
> On May 4, 2004, at 5:55 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> > Bob, I think you have a very good point (in the absence of data at
> > this end also). Hardening the steel affects yield point, not elastic
> > bending.
> >
> > This should be pretty simple to try. I'd do it myself, but I'm still
> > trying to get my chimney up on the new shop--still no forge here. If
> > someone trys it, the listening test should be blind: a helper does the
> > ringing of the triangles, and the listener doesn't know whether it is
> > a hardened triangle or a soft one. Several (random) trials of each.
> > Who's going to volunteer?
> >
> > Steve Smith
> >
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> Is it really the hardness or carbon content of the steel that changes
> >> the tone or is it the shape?
> >> I think the shape. Small differences between one triangle and another
> >> may change the tone but I think the tone is not affected by the carbon
> >> content or the quenching. Super or otherwise.
> >> This opinion is just an opinion. I have no actual data to confirm or
> >> deny.
> >> If you do have actual data (not anecdotal) I would like to see it.
> >> Bob
> >> ___________
> >>> At 15:57 05/03/04, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Made a few triangles - I found that mild steel works
> >>>> fine, but you get a much better ring if you quench the
> >>>> corners in superquench. Really improves the tone and
> >>>> intensity.
> >>>>
> >>>> FWFaller
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