[TheForge] Re: reducing fuel costs by improving forge efficiency.
David E. Smucker
davesmucker at hotmail.com
Sat Jul 31 13:14:45 EDT 2004
Following up on Kevin's comment, some large industrial melting furnaces have
removable tops, which are almost always domed. The have a "belly band"
around the outside which acts to load the dome and keep it in place. I
would think you could do something like that with rammable liner and tighten
a band around the outside after it has dried and while baking out the
refractory.
On other industrial melting furnace a precast refractory roof hanger was
used. It was like a double "Tee", the bottom in the rammable liner and the
top "loose" in the support steel. (Maybe it would be better to call it a
capital I -- but with longer top and bottom like a T) The loose was
important for thermal expansion and contraction. We had a bad batch of
these one time and lost severl furnace roofs -- expensive problem when the
furnaces is full of molten aluminum.
Dave Smucker
----- Original Message -----
From: "K Donahoe" <flyinpig at go-concepts.com>
To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Re: reducing fuel costs by improving forge
efficiency.
> Jerry,
>
> A slight dome would help a lot to keeping the kaowool in place. Perhaps if
> the blanket is too flimsy, using the board, cut to interlock with a
> key"stone" would work, especially with the rammable liner. I have no idea
> how much of a curve would be prime, but I bet a slight one would do.
>
> Kevin Donahoe
> Flying Pig Forge
> Morrow, OH 45152
> flyinpig at go-concepts.com
>
> ------Original Message-----
> -From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> -[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Jerry Frost
> -Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 2:17 PM
> -To: Sponsored by ABANA
> -Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: reducing fuel costs by improving forge
> -efficiency.
> -
> -
> -I have no doubt you can get welding heat, I'm counting on it
> -in fact, it's
> -just a burner size / forge volume ratio equation after all.
> -This type forge
> -is basically a brick pile forge with all the advantages and few of
the
> -disadvantages.
> -
> -Still, nothing wrong with trying to improve burner efficiency with a
> -recuperative system. I'm designing a heat exchanger into the
> -heat shielding
> -on my forge and it'll serve as a windbreak for the burner
> -intakes. My design
> -differs from yours in that I'm going to place the burners
horizontally
> -through the jack side, sidewall. To help keep the jack, fuel
> -lines, valves,
> -gages, etc. cool I'll use a double wall sheet metal shield.
> -It's double wall
> -so the burner intakes can be inside to take advantage of air
> -preheated by
> -waste heat.
> -
> -The utility in this type forge is the adaptability so things
> -like casters,
> -shelves, helpers, built in tool racks and whatever else can be
> -added without
> -getting in the way is a plus. My problem will probably be in
> -trying NOT to
> -pack too many bells and whistles on it. <grin>
> -
> -Durability is also an issue. Seeing as these forges have the
> -capacity for
> -large, heavy items, facing the firebox with something tough is
> -essential.
> -The table is easy, the lid is another matter. Generally, tough
> -is heavy and
> -I'd like to keep the lid as light as practical.
> -
> -I've had good, REALLY good luck with double liners in propane forges.
> -Specifically a high phosphate rammable refractory inner liner and an
> -insulating outer liner of Kaowool. This works really well in
> -the pipe forge
> -but I'm not sure how well it'll work for the large flat
> -hanging structure of
> -the forge's lid. In the pipe forge the inner linner, being
> -tubular is pretty
> -much self supporting and simply beds in the Kaowool. The flat
> -lid of the
> -planned forge however, will require internal support as the
> -hard refractory
> -isn't likely to support itself on a flat span. Another factor is heat
> -expansion over a 24" x 36" flat expanse so using Kaowool for
> -the insulation
> -may not be the best bet. Not because it doesn't insulate well
> -enough but
> -because it has no tensile strength and will do nothing to help the
hard
> -liner. I'm thinking of making up a batch of perlite/fireclay/cement
> -insulating refractory and tieing the hard refractory inner
> -liner through it
> -to the steel lid shell shell with SS screws. Another option
> -would be to use
> -the Kaowool hardboard (don't recall the name) and ramming the hard
> -refractory inner liner, with screws, to it. It'd be expensive
> -though and I
> -have more than a bit of the Scott in me. <grin>
> -
> -Frosty
> -------------------------
> -If it ain't forged
> -it ain't real.
> -Wrought iron is.
> -The FrostWorks
> -
> -Meadow Lakes, AK.
> -
> -
> ------ Original Message -----
> -From: "Ralph Sproul" <brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com>
> -To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> -Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 3:22 AM
> -Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: reducing fuel costs by improving forge
> -efficiency.
> -
> -
> -> Frosty,
> -> Doug claims he can place two bricks six inches apart from
the
> -center
> -> of the burner and forge weld with it. I haven't tried that
> -- but it works
> -> for him. I guess that covers the topic of improving forge
> -> efficiency.........We move bricks......not try to suck hot air upon
> -intake.
> ->
> -> For the size space it will heat compared to what I
> -use it for most
> -> of the time, this works well on one burner with the idle
> -incorperated when
> -> talking, phone, layout, etc.
> -> When you need to heat six to eight items with a 20 inch
> -> heat.........then your talking heavy gas consumption(about
> -$60-100 per
> -> month) for the work I do - which is mostly railings. I just
> -consider this
> -a
> -> cost I take in stride with the business of making iron work.
> ->
> -> Adaptability is where these unit really shines. One
> -burner or
> -> two.......the side walls changed from any
> -configuration..........(as long
> -as
> -> the side towards the burners is left in). I love being able
> -to work on a 4
> -> foot radius to an arch of a gazebo or rose trellis
> -arch...........just try
> -> that in a pipe forge! The pile of bricks on a table is an
> -idea which you
> -> just can't argue with (Thanks again for those tapes Clifton).
> ->
> -> The nice thing about those side arm burners you suggested I
> -make( a
> -> couple years ago).......is they tend to be somewhat
> -windproof. I like
> -just
> -> puting large parts on the Acorn table and heating them with
> -a firebrick
> -> under them............that takes away the handling of heavy
> -objects while
> -> hot..........you just do it where it sits, by prying it up
> -and sliding the
> -> bricks out to use the jig table it's on. Beats trying to
> -muscle a 3/4 x 1
> -> 1/2 flat that's 5-10 foot long for a railing section in and
> -out of the
> -forge
> -> to get the work done. My goal was to work on large projects
without
> -needing
> -> to hire help - it works. I think it's a good stopping point
> -as compared
> -to
> -> going to huge rosebuds with high oxygen inputs required to move
large
> -stock.
> -> There is a point working by yourself, that you have to stop
> -- on size of
> -> material and cost of heating.
> ->
> -> After looking at Marc Godbout's forge site with the
> -light weight
> -> refractory in the domed top.........I can see this would be
> -a really nice
> -> option for another version of his and my lift top sytle
> -forge. I would
> -like
> -> something more durable than the Kaowool board for a ceiling,
> -and the domed
> -> shape may have some added benefits. I'd keep the caster
> -table I've got,
> -> allow it to still pivot, the hard brick floor for durability, and
> -insulating
> -> high temp bricks for the sides, and then put the formed lid with
> -refractory
> -> on as a top.
> -> The caster table and jack post become really handy
> -sections of the
> -> forge as a tool rack. The base not only allows the unit to
> -be stowed away
> -> and come out when needed, but the storage off all size
> -bricks (and broken
> -> bricks to act as diverters and heat shields) is great to aim
> -and localize
> -> heat. The jack post has a rack to hold the reach in poker,
> -the small pick
> -> up tongs, and the larger two radius pick up tongs for moving
> -any object
> -> around or flipping them to get the heat to soak into large
> -items, and the
> -> handle on the side is where I keep the brick tongs for moving the
hot
> -> bricks. So it's a totally self contained tool, with all the
> -accessories
> -> rolling around with it - when it's needed. I see Marc went
> -with what he
> -> had, and incorportated the ideas of rolling cabinet and
> -lifting the lid
> -with
> -> a mechanical mechanism (scissor jack) to change the firebox
> -when it's hot.
> -> When you do your clamshell (if you have a cement floor in
> -your shop, that
> -> is) - I'd keep casters, pivoting tower, and mechanical
> -lifting top on the
> -> list of priorities for your design.
> -> This sounds like a winning combination for your
> -clamshell. Right
> -> now I'm so loaded with work that my spare time is going to working
on
> -> rebuilding the 3B I picked up last summer. If you get a
> -chance to make up
> -> your clamshell this year, I'd love to see the results you get.
Your
> -designs
> -> have always impressed me, and led me to some of the
> -completed projects
> -I've
> -> got now. ( I've still got that swage stand drawing I want
> -to get to some
> -> day!)
> ->
> -> Marc and I have talked with a fellow in Rhode Island
> -who wants to
> -do
> -> a workshop on burners and gas forges later this
> -fall.......this might be a
> -> nice time to make one "experimental unit" while there are 8 - 10
guys
> -> looking to keep busy on a group participation project.
> -> After making 9 different style (trial and error)
> -burners to get to
> -> the one's I like now.........I can see why I get all the
> -e-mails and phone
> -> calls from members of our club experimenting with which burner to
run
> -with.
> -> I think a workshop and newsletter article will clear up a
> -lot of questions
> -> for the folks working on gas forges.......besides being a
> -great way to
> -spend
> -> the day with a bunch of good folks. :-)
> ->
> -> Ralph
> ->
> ->
> -
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