[TheForge] Re: reducing fuel costs by improving forge efficiency.
K Donahoe
flyinpig at go-concepts.com
Sat Jul 31 10:34:10 EDT 2004
Jerry,
A slight dome would help a lot to keeping the kaowool in place. Perhaps if
the blanket is too flimsy, using the board, cut to interlock with a
key"stone" would work, especially with the rammable liner. I have no idea
how much of a curve would be prime, but I bet a slight one would do.
Kevin Donahoe
Flying Pig Forge
Morrow, OH 45152
flyinpig at go-concepts.com
------Original Message-----
-From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
-[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Jerry Frost
-Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 2:17 PM
-To: Sponsored by ABANA
-Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: reducing fuel costs by improving forge
-efficiency.
-
-
-I have no doubt you can get welding heat, I'm counting on it
-in fact, it's
-just a burner size / forge volume ratio equation after all.
-This type forge
-is basically a brick pile forge with all the advantages and few of the
-disadvantages.
-
-Still, nothing wrong with trying to improve burner efficiency with a
-recuperative system. I'm designing a heat exchanger into the
-heat shielding
-on my forge and it'll serve as a windbreak for the burner
-intakes. My design
-differs from yours in that I'm going to place the burners horizontally
-through the jack side, sidewall. To help keep the jack, fuel
-lines, valves,
-gages, etc. cool I'll use a double wall sheet metal shield.
-It's double wall
-so the burner intakes can be inside to take advantage of air
-preheated by
-waste heat.
-
-The utility in this type forge is the adaptability so things
-like casters,
-shelves, helpers, built in tool racks and whatever else can be
-added without
-getting in the way is a plus. My problem will probably be in
-trying NOT to
-pack too many bells and whistles on it. <grin>
-
-Durability is also an issue. Seeing as these forges have the
-capacity for
-large, heavy items, facing the firebox with something tough is
-essential.
-The table is easy, the lid is another matter. Generally, tough
-is heavy and
-I'd like to keep the lid as light as practical.
-
-I've had good, REALLY good luck with double liners in propane forges.
-Specifically a high phosphate rammable refractory inner liner and an
-insulating outer liner of Kaowool. This works really well in
-the pipe forge
-but I'm not sure how well it'll work for the large flat
-hanging structure of
-the forge's lid. In the pipe forge the inner linner, being
-tubular is pretty
-much self supporting and simply beds in the Kaowool. The flat
-lid of the
-planned forge however, will require internal support as the
-hard refractory
-isn't likely to support itself on a flat span. Another factor is heat
-expansion over a 24" x 36" flat expanse so using Kaowool for
-the insulation
-may not be the best bet. Not because it doesn't insulate well
-enough but
-because it has no tensile strength and will do nothing to help the hard
-liner. I'm thinking of making up a batch of perlite/fireclay/cement
-insulating refractory and tieing the hard refractory inner
-liner through it
-to the steel lid shell shell with SS screws. Another option
-would be to use
-the Kaowool hardboard (don't recall the name) and ramming the hard
-refractory inner liner, with screws, to it. It'd be expensive
-though and I
-have more than a bit of the Scott in me. <grin>
-
-Frosty
-------------------------
-If it ain't forged
-it ain't real.
-Wrought iron is.
-The FrostWorks
-
-Meadow Lakes, AK.
-
-
------ Original Message -----
-From: "Ralph Sproul" <brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com>
-To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
-Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 3:22 AM
-Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: reducing fuel costs by improving forge
-efficiency.
-
-
-> Frosty,
-> Doug claims he can place two bricks six inches apart from the
-center
-> of the burner and forge weld with it. I haven't tried that
-- but it works
-> for him. I guess that covers the topic of improving forge
-> efficiency.........We move bricks......not try to suck hot air upon
-intake.
->
-> For the size space it will heat compared to what I
-use it for most
-> of the time, this works well on one burner with the idle
-incorperated when
-> talking, phone, layout, etc.
-> When you need to heat six to eight items with a 20 inch
-> heat.........then your talking heavy gas consumption(about
-$60-100 per
-> month) for the work I do - which is mostly railings. I just
-consider this
-a
-> cost I take in stride with the business of making iron work.
->
-> Adaptability is where these unit really shines. One
-burner or
-> two.......the side walls changed from any
-configuration..........(as long
-as
-> the side towards the burners is left in). I love being able
-to work on a 4
-> foot radius to an arch of a gazebo or rose trellis
-arch...........just try
-> that in a pipe forge! The pile of bricks on a table is an
-idea which you
-> just can't argue with (Thanks again for those tapes Clifton).
->
-> The nice thing about those side arm burners you suggested I
-make( a
-> couple years ago).......is they tend to be somewhat
-windproof. I like
-just
-> puting large parts on the Acorn table and heating them with
-a firebrick
-> under them............that takes away the handling of heavy
-objects while
-> hot..........you just do it where it sits, by prying it up
-and sliding the
-> bricks out to use the jig table it's on. Beats trying to
-muscle a 3/4 x 1
-> 1/2 flat that's 5-10 foot long for a railing section in and
-out of the
-forge
-> to get the work done. My goal was to work on large projects without
-needing
-> to hire help - it works. I think it's a good stopping point
-as compared
-to
-> going to huge rosebuds with high oxygen inputs required to move large
-stock.
-> There is a point working by yourself, that you have to stop
-- on size of
-> material and cost of heating.
->
-> After looking at Marc Godbout's forge site with the
-light weight
-> refractory in the domed top.........I can see this would be
-a really nice
-> option for another version of his and my lift top sytle
-forge. I would
-like
-> something more durable than the Kaowool board for a ceiling,
-and the domed
-> shape may have some added benefits. I'd keep the caster
-table I've got,
-> allow it to still pivot, the hard brick floor for durability, and
-insulating
-> high temp bricks for the sides, and then put the formed lid with
-refractory
-> on as a top.
-> The caster table and jack post become really handy
-sections of the
-> forge as a tool rack. The base not only allows the unit to
-be stowed away
-> and come out when needed, but the storage off all size
-bricks (and broken
-> bricks to act as diverters and heat shields) is great to aim
-and localize
-> heat. The jack post has a rack to hold the reach in poker,
-the small pick
-> up tongs, and the larger two radius pick up tongs for moving
-any object
-> around or flipping them to get the heat to soak into large
-items, and the
-> handle on the side is where I keep the brick tongs for moving the hot
-> bricks. So it's a totally self contained tool, with all the
-accessories
-> rolling around with it - when it's needed. I see Marc went
-with what he
-> had, and incorportated the ideas of rolling cabinet and
-lifting the lid
-with
-> a mechanical mechanism (scissor jack) to change the firebox
-when it's hot.
-> When you do your clamshell (if you have a cement floor in
-your shop, that
-> is) - I'd keep casters, pivoting tower, and mechanical
-lifting top on the
-> list of priorities for your design.
-> This sounds like a winning combination for your
-clamshell. Right
-> now I'm so loaded with work that my spare time is going to working on
-> rebuilding the 3B I picked up last summer. If you get a
-chance to make up
-> your clamshell this year, I'd love to see the results you get. Your
-designs
-> have always impressed me, and led me to some of the
-completed projects
-I've
-> got now. ( I've still got that swage stand drawing I want
-to get to some
-> day!)
->
-> Marc and I have talked with a fellow in Rhode Island
-who wants to
-do
-> a workshop on burners and gas forges later this
-fall.......this might be a
-> nice time to make one "experimental unit" while there are 8 - 10 guys
-> looking to keep busy on a group participation project.
-> After making 9 different style (trial and error)
-burners to get to
-> the one's I like now.........I can see why I get all the
-e-mails and phone
-> calls from members of our club experimenting with which burner to run
-with.
-> I think a workshop and newsletter article will clear up a
-lot of questions
-> for the folks working on gas forges.......besides being a
-great way to
-spend
-> the day with a bunch of good folks. :-)
->
-> Ralph
->
->
-
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