[TheForge] Propane supply problem

Thu Jul 8 19:20:48 EDT 2004

I'm not familiar with the code but I did note that there is a very big "AND"
in what Terry wrote.  It takes one or more of the conditions noted "AND" the
approval of the local jurisdiction.

That means you have to win over the regulatory official so I would suggest
you ask him to "help" you find a way around your problem.

Good luck.

-----Original Message-----
From: terry l. ridder <terrylr at blauedonau.com>
To: Sponsored by ABANA <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Date: Thursday, July 08, 2004 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Propane supply problem

>On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 marc at ironringforge.com wrote:
>
>marc> My interspersions (did I just invent a new word???) below:
>marc>
>Quoting "terry l. ridder" <terrylr at blauedonau.com>:
>marc> >
>marc> > On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 marc at ironringforge.com wrote:
>marc> >
>marc> > marc>
>marc> > marc> My propane supplier won't give me more than 5psi to my new
shop.
>marc>
>marc> > which company is your propane service company?
>marc>
>marc> I'm going with Amerigas. I was going to try others in the area, but
Amerigas'
>marc> propane prices are significantly lower than everyone else. Since I
also heat
>marc> the house and water with propane, switching to another would cost at
least
>marc> $170/year.
>marc>
>
>okay, same company i have.
>
>marc>
>marc> >
>marc> > also ask him for the specific chapter and paragraph he is going by.
>marc>
>marc> He mentioned 2.5.1.
>marc>
>
>well he is correct there:
>
><begin quote>
>2.5 piping system operating pressure limitations
>
>2.5.1 maximum design operating pressure
>the maximum design operating pressure for a piping system located inside
>buildings shall not exceed 5 psig ( 34 kpa gauge ) unless approved by
>the authority having juridiction and one or more of the following
>conditions are met:
>
>(a) the piping system is welded. (<--- notice )
>(b) the piping system is located in a ventilated chase or otherwise
>enclosed for protection against accidental gas accumulation.
>(c) the piping is located inside buildings or separate areas of
>buildings used exclusively for:
>    1. industrial processing or heating.
>    2. research
>    3. warehousing, or
>    4. boiler or mechancial equipment rooms.
>(d) the piping is a temporary installation for buildings under
>construction.
><end   quote>
>
>my piping system is black pipe and welded.
>
>marc>
>marc> >
>marc> > the national fire prevention association code allows for greater
than 5
>marc> > psig if the piping meets certain criteria. the main criteria is
that the
>marc> > piping system is welding or brazed.
>marc> >
>marc> > my piping system is running at 20psig propane.
>marc>
>marc> He never mentioned that. But I'm running copper tubing with flared
connections,
>marc> so I would probably be out there. He did mention that they could go
to 20psi
>marc> for a liquid delivery. That's about it.
>marc>
>
>i would not trust flared connections pass 5 psig.
>
>marc> >
>marc> > i would suggest visiting the library and checkout the latest nfpa
for
>marc> > fuel gas and the lpg.
>marc> > NFPA 54   National Fuel Gas Code
>marc> > NFPA 58   Liquefied Petroleum Gas Code
>marc> >
>marc> > also checkout the book,  NFPA 58: LP-Gas Code Handbook, 2004
Edition
>marc> >
>marc> > http://www.nfpa.org
>marc>
>marc> Thanks, I think I'll do that.
>marc>
>marc> >
>marc> > marc>
>marc> > marc> So what to do? I'd like to keep using a non-blown burner. I
know that I
>marc> > can
>marc> > marc> forge at 5psi right now, but not weld.
>marc> >
>marc> > this really depends on the burner you are using.
>marc> > 5psig of propane should be able to reach welding temps.
>marc>
>marc> I'm real flexible with burners right now. I was about to try out the
side-arm.
>marc> but if there's a design that works better at lower pressures, that
would be
>marc> great. If I get the chance, I'll try a bigger jet size on the
side-arm and see
>marc> what happens. That's a simple enough experiment.
>marc>
>marc> The downside of a bigger jet is less savings when idling. I use a
needle valve
>marc> to turn down the heat while hammering. If I set the burner to weld at
5psi,
>marc> then I would probably do normal forging down near 2-3psi. That leaves
little
>marc> room to turn down. Hmmm... maybe using the regulator for this instead
of the
>marc> needle valve. Something else to try.
>marc>
>
>my forge has 4 burners, which are the original ron reil design, and can
>easily reach welding temperatures running at less than 5 psig. if you
>look at ron reil's propane forge, mine is nearly identical.
>
>marc> >
>marc> > marc>
>marc> > marc> Also, I was looking to use the piped propane to run some
oxy-propane
>marc> > for cutting
>marc> > marc> and spot heating. What pressures are needed for that? And how
about a
>marc> > hand
>marc> > marc> torch, like a propane TurboTorch? Do they need higher
pressure than
>marc> > 5psi?
>marc> > marc>
>marc> >
>marc> > nfpa 54 and 58 do not cover any fuel gas piping system used for
welding.
>marc>
>marc> Actually, I was asking if 5psi would be enough to power a
cutting/heating torch.
>marc> If I can make 5psi work in the forge then I'd like my other
applications to
>marc> work, too. The TurboTorch I was thinking of is the plumber's type of
>marc> air-propane. I've seen some people do interesting work with copper
using these
>marc> to anneal.
>marc>
>
>not familar with the torch. so i am unable to help you there.
>
>marc>
>marc> >
>marc> > marc>
>marc> > marc> My other option is to get my own tank, like an 80-lb, but I
got spoiled
>marc> > marc> with my previous 100-gal tank.
>marc> >
>marc> > personally, i would have two different bulk tanks, one for the
house and
>marc> > one for the shop.
>marc>
>marc> I've already got three for the house. Our property isn't suitable for
one of
>marc> those torpedos, I guess. I really didn't want to add one more.
>marc>
>marc>
>marc> Thanks for the feedback, Terry.
>
>you are welcome.
>
>marc>
>marc> --Marc
>marc>
>
>--
>terry l. ridder ><>
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