[TheForge] Regarding the BS remark...
Mandarb an'Allein
[email protected]
Sun Jan 4 12:13:00 2004
All,
I am a new subscriber to this list and a fairly new blacksmith to boot but I
wanted to make a quick remark. First, I am very glad that this mailing list
exists...however, the preponderence of ignorance and messages that have
absolutely nothing to do with blacksmithing is daunting to say the least.
Secondly, and I sincerely hope that Tom Troszak is reading this...I am one
person on this list who found your enlightening comments well said, well
intentioned and not in the least bit unwarranted. For those of us who do
not like what we read or find it unnecessary, please act like the adult you
are supposed to be and simply ignore that email. If you have negative
comments keep them to yourself. Notice that I did not send a mailing list
email complaining about the redundant and off topic material that clutters
this list...I merely jumped to the defense of a well meaning and well
informed colleague.
Waiting to get flamed...
John Harrison.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 02:11
To: [email protected]
Subject: TheForge digest, Vol 4 #863 - 20 msgs
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Miller Welder CP-250TM ([email protected])
2. Re: Johnson Forge available (Seattle) ([email protected])
3. RE: O/T Survivor (Gladish Family)
4. Re: tips for cleaning steel? ([email protected])
5. Re: Forge for sale ([email protected])
6. RE: Miller Welder CP-250TM (G.Watts)
7. a lot of unimpressive BS ([email protected])
8. Re: O/T Survivor (Andy Vida)
9. Re: a lot of unimpressive BS (Darrell)
10. Re: O/T Survivor (Justin Fisher)
11. Re: a lot of unimpressive BS (Phlip)
12. Re: a lot of unimpressive BS (Justin Fisher)
13. Re: O/T Survivor (Ries Niemi)
14. Re: a lot of unimpressive BS (Ries Niemi)
15. RE: RE: Roses (Mike Linn)
16. forged leg hold trap (Bob Smolen)
17. Re: a lot of unimpressive BS (Dann Johnson)
18. Re: a lot of unimpressive BS (Andy Vida)
19. Re: a lot of unimpressive BS ([email protected])
20. RE: forged leg hold trap (Roger R Degner)
--__--__--
Message: 1
From: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 19:49:43 EST
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Miller Welder CP-250TM
To: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
Correction it would have to use a R-115 feeder.
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Message: 2
From: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 20:59:37 EST
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Johnson Forge available (Seattle)
To: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
Terry
As to: Johnson Forge available (Seattle).
There is a 50/50 chance that Fred Feiertag on Castinghobby would buy it for
parts. He is local. You could also ask on Hobbicast. I doubt that you'll get
serious money for it; Sorry.
Mikey
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Message: 3
From: "Gladish Family" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [TheForge] O/T Survivor
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 18:02:39 -0800
Reply-To: [email protected]
> > there are people in Iraq who KNOW that we have bigger and
> better guns than
> > we do and it only makes them more determined.
>
> Andy, it is not reasonable to compare a "normal" civil
> situation such as what we find in the USA and a war zone.
I understand that, and I know D. was referring to something else.
The thread that I hoped was obvious was that, though "normal criminals" may
fear the armed citizen, the presence of armed good guys in no way guarantees
peace, here or abroad. Part of our problem right now is that we have a good
man in the White house who loves simple solutions and generalities- can be a
problem in today's world...
This from someone who has written publicly for fifteen years in support of
legal carry, so don't worry- I want y'all to hang onto your guns :-)
Some people fear armed Americans, some (including some Americans) do not.
A. G.
--__--__--
Message: 4
From: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:04:59 EST
Subject: Re: [TheForge] tips for cleaning steel?
To: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
OR get several
gallons of white vinegar.
We used to use white wine vinegar for making a rust fit on worn machine
parts. There are differences between the white vinegars as to what acid they
contain. White wine vinegar has muratic acid, and will rust steel within
minuets.
Just a cautionary note.
Mikey
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Message: 5
From: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:18:06 EST
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Forge for sale
To: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
Terry
I just thought of another possibility. Seattle Pottery Supply does a lot of
business with heavy industry. Some of their customers are interested in
forges.
You might try asking them if they know someone looking for a big forge.
Tacoma is really a better town for such prospects. They have a thriving art
community.
Mikey
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Message: 6
From: "G.Watts" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Miller Welder CP-250TM
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 18:21:30 -0800
Reply-To: [email protected]
Mike,
I ran a similar power supply for about 6 months...it was a CP200. The
unit I ran was old and beat up, but ran pretty well for the solid mig wire I
was running at the time. I ran it with a Lincoln LN-7 feeder. I generally
prefer Lincoln wire feeders, but that may just be due to the fact that I
have lots more hours on Lincoln feeders than Millers. I did like the Miller
suitcase feeder that I got to try out for a day several months ago and found
it comparable to a Lincoln LN-25 (which I use almost daily)...Now that I've
rambled...what did you want to know?
George.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 4:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [TheForge] Miller Welder CP-250TM
Has anyone had any dealings with this type of welder? It uses a wire feeder
22A goes with it, but I only got the welder.
Thanks
Mike Ivey
Savannah River Forge
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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 21:29:17 -0500
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [TheForge] a lot of unimpressive BS
Reply-To: [email protected]
on 1/3/04 7:10 PM,
> From: Chris Worsley <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] hot air does not rise
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> The truth comes in simple words! Well said Dave, without a lot of
> unimpressive BS ;-) . Thanks.
> Chris
>> Details, details, details. It still boils down to warm/hot air rises,
>> cool air sinks. Exhaust from a gas forge is warm/hot and will move
>> upwards, not towards the floor. The mechanism of the action is moot.
>> It happens. The CO and CO2 and the H2O and other byproducts of the
>> propane forge combustion will rise.
>>
>> Dave Brown
>> Heritage Smithing
>> Green Bay, WI
Dear Chris and Dave,
My attempt at an explanation of the physics of gases was not meant to be a
criticism of Dave, or his shop, only a simple clarification of a very
commonly misunderstood phenomenon. Several times a year I have the
opportunity to demonstrate physics to elementary school students, and they
understand the difference right away. They go home and explain it to their
parents.
The reason that I bothered to comment in the first place was not merely to
pontificate "a lot of unimpressive BS" but in the hope that the information
could be understood and utilized, apparently I was mistaken.
I have visited many metalworking shops where a 6 foot diameter sheet metal
hood was placed directly over a gas or coal forge, and vented straight up
through a 10" dia pipe; and even though the forge directly below provided an
endless supply of "hot air", the hood failed to draw. The owners simply
couldn't understand why the shop was still smoky. The same goes for
fireplaces in modern houses.
The inverse of this is the "side-draft" flue, where smoke and flames from
the forge turn 90 degrees sideways before they go up the stack. I sincerely
hope that you never stumble upon one of these in action, it might confuse
you.
I almost always regret my postings to this list, and this is case is no
exception. "Pearls before swine", and all that. I shall pester you no more,
and please accept my sincere apologies for my rude intrusion into your
contented ignorance, 'twon't happen again.
Tom Troszak
--__--__--
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 18:44:21 -0800
From: Andy Vida <[email protected]>
Organization: Proof Technologies
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TheForge] O/T Survivor
Reply-To: [email protected]
Gladish Family wrote:
> I understand that, and I know D. was referring to something else.
> The thread that I hoped was obvious was that, though "normal criminals"
may
> fear the armed citizen, the presence of armed good guys in no way
guarantees
> peace, here or abroad.
I don't recall anyone saying that it would. There are no
guarantees of anything in this life except eventual death.
> Part of our problem right now is that we have a good
> man in the White house who loves simple solutions and
> generalities- can be a problem in today's world...
I'm not convinced he is good. He smacks of being a lapdog.
The problem with US foreign relations has always been the
habit of simplistic solutions and unmitigated arrogance.
It started no later than at the outbreak of the civil war,
through forcing our way into Japan in 1868, Span.-Amer war,
WWI/II, Korea, Viet Nam... and now Iraq. American hubris
may see us to a bad end yet. We dont' have all the answers
nor do we have the market cornered on "right", yet our
domestic law and foreign would say otherwise. New law was
just passed that would allow US attorneys general to prosecute
the so-called "sex tourists" for the acts they commit in
other nations, even if those acts are legal in those places.
That is the height of hubris. What next? Prison if I go to
Holland and smoke a little skag? The USA needs to get its
nose out of the world's anus.
> This from someone who has written publicly for fifteen years in support of
> legal carry, so don't worry- I want y'all to hang onto your guns :-)
The problem is one of determining who can and who cannot carry.
Who establishes the standard? Who enforces it? My stnadard is
if you are not locked up in a nuthouse or a prison, you have an
unabridgeable right to carry whatever arms you damn please. If
you abuse that right, then you should face the consequences, but
prior restraint is one of the most hideously repugnant practices
that I can imagine. That's like arresting a person for a crime
they have not yet committed.
> Some people fear armed Americans, some (including some Americans) do not.
Nothing gives me the warm and fuzzies like hanging out in a place
where everyone is carrying a gun. Shooting events... Phoenix...
all good.
--__--__--
Message: 9
From: "Darrell" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] a lot of unimpressive BS
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 18:59:24 -0800
Reply-To: [email protected]
Tom,
I just have to reply to this. Can't help my self. The hot air rises!!! If it
don't, the cold air could never get under it. A hot air balloon is a perfect
example. It is the hot air IN the balloon that causes it to go up. It goes
up because the heated air is less dense and the cold air can't get under it
until the hot air goes up. Even if there is no return air supply for a
chimney, there will still be some hot air that will escape out the top even
if some cold air has to come back down the chimney. It just won't work good
enough to make any difference.
If all the air in a given space is the same temperature, only heat or some
other mechanical means will cause air to move.
Darrell
http://www.machinemaster.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 6:29 PM
Subject: [TheForge] a lot of unimpressive BS
> on 1/3/04 7:10 PM,
> > From: Chris Worsley <[email protected]>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] hot air does not rise
> > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > The truth comes in simple words! Well said Dave, without a lot of
> > unimpressive BS ;-) . Thanks.
> > Chris
>
> >> Details, details, details. It still boils down to warm/hot air rises,
> >> cool air sinks. Exhaust from a gas forge is warm/hot and will move
> >> upwards, not towards the floor. The mechanism of the action is moot.
> >> It happens. The CO and CO2 and the H2O and other byproducts of the
> >> propane forge combustion will rise.
> >>
> >> Dave Brown
> >> Heritage Smithing
> >> Green Bay, WI
>
>
> Dear Chris and Dave,
>
> My attempt at an explanation of the physics of gases was not meant to be a
> criticism of Dave, or his shop, only a simple clarification of a very
> commonly misunderstood phenomenon. Several times a year I have the
> opportunity to demonstrate physics to elementary school students, and they
> understand the difference right away. They go home and explain it to their
> parents.
>
> The reason that I bothered to comment in the first place was not merely to
> pontificate "a lot of unimpressive BS" but in the hope that the
information
> could be understood and utilized, apparently I was mistaken.
>
> I have visited many metalworking shops where a 6 foot diameter sheet metal
> hood was placed directly over a gas or coal forge, and vented straight up
> through a 10" dia pipe; and even though the forge directly below provided
an
> endless supply of "hot air", the hood failed to draw. The owners simply
> couldn't understand why the shop was still smoky. The same goes for
> fireplaces in modern houses.
>
> The inverse of this is the "side-draft" flue, where smoke and flames from
> the forge turn 90 degrees sideways before they go up the stack. I
sincerely
> hope that you never stumble upon one of these in action, it might confuse
> you.
>
> I almost always regret my postings to this list, and this is case is no
> exception. "Pearls before swine", and all that. I shall pester you no
more,
> and please accept my sincere apologies for my rude intrusion into your
> contented ignorance, 'twon't happen again.
>
> Tom Troszak
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> theforge mail list group photo site is
> http://www.photoaccess.com
> Login: [email protected]
> password: anvil
> ___________
>
>
--__--__--
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 22:00:02 -0500
To: [email protected]
From: Justin Fisher <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] O/T Survivor
Reply-To: [email protected]
At 09:28 AM 1/3/2004, you wrote:
>I agree with trusting the pilots. Given the choice between what we're
>doing now to block a relatively small number of terrorists vs. letting
>every crazy who wants to carry a gun, I feel much safer with the current
>system. I've heard the arguments such as how polite society would be if
>everyone carried a gun, but think of all the nut cases out there. Do you
>really want to arm them?
>
>Steve Smith
I note that everyone in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia seems to be armed to the
teeth - and those folks aren't particularly polite!
A tool is a tool and how it is used depends on the attitude, skill,
intention, etc. of the user. No guarantees, one way or the other.
--__--__--
Message: 11
From: "Phlip" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] a lot of unimpressive BS
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 22:09:24 -0500
Reply-To: [email protected]
You know, on this List, it's safer and more polite to argue about
politics.....
Saint Phlip,
CoDoLDS
"When in doubt, heat it up and hit it with a hammer."
Blacksmith's credo.
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is probably not a
cat.
Never a horse that cain't be rode,
And never a rider who cain't be throwed....
--__--__--
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 22:22:21 -0500
To: [email protected]
From: Justin Fisher <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] a lot of unimpressive BS
Reply-To: [email protected]
>
>I almost always regret my postings to this list, and this is case is no
>exception. "Pearls before swine", and all that. I shall pester you no more,
>and please accept my sincere apologies for my rude intrusion into your
>contented ignorance, 'twon't happen again.
>
>Tom Troszak
I'm sorry you regret your posting - I found it informative. We can learn
from each other if we open our minds and ears enough to hear, and judgement
enough to evaluate what we hear.
--Justin
--__--__--
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:01:32 -0800
Subject: Re: [TheForge] O/T Survivor
From: Ries Niemi <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
On Friday, January 2, 2004, at 07:23 PM, John Chobrda wrote:
>
>
> Ries Niemi wrote:
>
>> Ries I think you might have forgotten Viet Nam, and Afghanistan.
>
> John C.
>
Ahh- afghanistan- I seem to remember a certain three letter agency of
the US government actually supplying those surface to air missles which
irritated the soviets so much- where are those missiles now, anyway?
But this just reinforces my point- outside supply of military scale
weapons.
ries
--__--__--
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:24:51 -0800
Subject: Re: [TheForge] a lot of unimpressive BS
From: Ries Niemi <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
Tom- I always enjoy your postings to this list, and hope you will
continue.
I find you know what you are talking about, and actually have the
experience in the real world to back it up.
ries
--__--__--
Message: 15
From: "Mike Linn" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [TheForge] RE: Roses
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 23:49:57 -0600
Reply-To: [email protected]
This is what we call around here "the essence of"
If you, or more importantly the customer, looks at something
and can determine what it is.. then you met the requirements.
My roses are not exact duplicates of a rose
but when you look at one you know what it is.
It even smells like one ;^)
mike
-----Original Message-----
> I'm also reminded of something I heard sometime back, I think it was
> from Robb Gunter when he was talking about his roses and feathers.
> He said that you are making the equivalent of a caricature in steel,
> not trying to duplicate nature.
_
--__--__--
Message: 16
From: "Bob Smolen" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 00:38:09 -0600
Subject: [TheForge] forged leg hold trap
Reply-To: [email protected]
I recently bought a leg hold trap at an auction to use as an example for
forging a trap.I made one and it was a pretty neat forging exercise. You
have to draw out and punch spring steel, rivet pieces, form the trigger and
get it all to fit and work as intended.
Has anyone else forged a trap or know someone who does?
Please note that I dont intend for the trap to be used, but the forging
respects what smiths were called upon to do in the past. It should be of
interest to rendezvousers(sp.?) or history buffs.
Bob
--__--__--
Message: 17
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 00:01:52 -0600
To: [email protected]
From: Dann Johnson <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] a lot of unimpressive BS
Reply-To: [email protected]
I see a chimney as a siphon hose. Once the air is flowing / drafting up,
then the system tends to continue working. But like a siphon hose, the
system often has to be primed a little.
Hot air rises (tends to be displaced upwards), but air currents can do
weird things.
There can be too much "noise" ventilation, call it "cross ventilation" in
a shop building so that the hot smokey air is "sucked" (displaced) AWAY
from the chimney. I think that most on this list understood the
explanation that Tom Troszak made about the physics of air displacement /
replacement air. I am certain that Dave Brown did.
RE: Tom Troszak's Pearls. I have been verbally eviscerated a few
times, even on this list. Isn't all learning is a combination of pain and
pleasure.
Oink Oink. I was an Iowa Hog farmer <g>
Dann Johnson
--__--__--
Message: 18
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 22:14:34 -0800
From: Andy Vida <[email protected]>
Organization: Proof Technologies
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TheForge] a lot of unimpressive BS
Reply-To: [email protected]
Phlip wrote:
>
> You know, on this List, it's safer and more polite to argue about
> politics.....
Waaaa haa haa haa haa haaaaa....
--__--__--
Message: 19
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 01:55:26 EST
Subject: Re: [TheForge] a lot of unimpressive BS
To: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
To Tom Troszak
OK, I owe you an apology, too. I didn't eviscerate, but was so busy
snickering, that I missed your point completely. More listening from now on,
I promise.
Mikey
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text/plain (text body -- kept)
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Message: 20
From: "Roger R Degner" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [TheForge] forged leg hold trap
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 01:04:35 -0600
Reply-To: [email protected]
A Guild of Metal smith's member did one at a demonstration this summer.
Actually he did parts and had one put together he did at home. He
donated it to there fund raiser auction in the fall. There is a tape of
the demo and it will eventually be on the library list at
www.umbaonline.org. The demonstrator was Jim Moenck from Minnesota.
Roger R Degner
I recently bought a leg hold trap at an auction to use as an example for
forging a trap.I made one and it was a pretty neat forging exercise. You
have to draw out and punch spring steel, rivet pieces, form the trigger
and get it all to fit and work as intended. Has anyone else forged a
trap or know someone who does? Please note that I dont intend for the
trap to be used, but the forging respects what smiths were called upon
to do in the past. It should be of interest to rendezvousers(sp.?) or
history buffs. Bob
_______________________________________________
http
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End of TheForge Digest