[TheForge] Suggestions needed for scroungeable steel

Wed Nov 19 22:05:14 2003

Chuck,   I don't disagree with what you say about "Super" quench -- but what
it is just a very fast quench medium that was put together to be a safer
material to use than a NaOH caustic quench.  It still doesn't change the
physics of what is going on in heat treating.  I didn't say it well but my
point was that for an anvil or hammer function I would not hold out much
hope for obtaining the required hardness no matter how fast you quench if
using mild steel.  I have made good hammer heads out of 1045 -- with a water
quench -- but they are just a little on the soft side.  Super quench on
these might be just enough better -- but I just don't think I would get
there with a 1018 steel.  Another way I would say it is I would not choose
to put very much effort in to making a TOOL using 1018 steel -- if I could
find something better.  At the same time 1018 is a wonderful steel for
making many things from.

Your 1340 -- has 40 points of carbon (0.38 to 0.43) and up to almost 2
percent Mn (1.60 to 1.90) with some Si too.  With using the very fast quench
you should be able to get a hardness of  50 to 53 Rc -- mostly dependent on
how big your section is and how fast you can quench it.

You railroad spike knives work well because they are a thin section and can
be cooled very very quickly (and you have 30 points of carbon.)  And yes you
can get some addition hardness in 1018 -- but I would not choose to use this
steel for cold chisel.  As to hardness in a 1008 you are not going to add
much, the carbon content is just too low.  Take a soft steel nail -- most
likely 1008 and try it.  The maximum hardness of any steel depends solely on
carbon content.  (Not depth of hardness -- but maximum hardness)  For
example the maximum hardness with 0.10 carbon at 99 % martensite is 38.5 Rc.
If you raise the carbon content to the 0.30 in your 1030 railroad spike the
maximum hardness at 99 % martensite is 50.3 Rc and if go to 0.40 percent
carbon it is 56 Rc again at 99 % martensite.  (These are "handbook values"
from ASM's Carbon and Alloy Steels)

One of the things often missed in the discussion of what quench medium to
use is the mass of the part being heat treated.  For the same steel -- the
larger the mass the faster the quench medium required to reach the same
levels of hardness.  It is the rate of cooling that is critical in many
applications.  The down side to this the faster quench medium may also lead
to cracking or failure of the part in heat treating.  Take your 1340 for
example -- often used to make high strength bolts etc. If you would take a
1340 bolt with cut treads and quench it in Super quench you may well have
cracks at the base of the tread.  The same bolt quench in oil would not -- 
but still meet the strength requirements for the bolt.  Now your large
section knife anvil -- needs the Super quench to reach the Rc 50 you want.

Dave Smucker

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Robinson" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Suggestions needed for scroungeable steel

> Hey Dave,
> It sounds as though you haven't used GSQ, or haven't used it correctly.
> GSQ works with any steel 1018 up. Works fine with A36.
> I suspect it will work on 1008 slightly, but I haven't tried it.
> It will harden any simple steel with carbon in it.
> It wont work on W/I
> I routinely use it to harden 1030 rail road spike knives.
> My anvils are 1340 and I harden them in GSQ to RC50.
> If you use it properly GSQ works quite well.
> Make sure that you stir the GSQ and thoroughly agitate the metal being
> quenched ,  or you will get vapor lock, and the metal won't harden
properly.
> If the metal doesn't scream and vibrate vigorously for several seconds it
> hasn't hardened.
> DON'T use it on steels above 1045. Try it with 1095 and you will wish you
> hadn't.
> I use a 55 gallon drum of it and replace it after about  1 to 1 1/2 years.
> Depending on use.
> Don't dick with Robs formula, the substitute chemicals like jet dry
> surfactants don't work as well.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David E. Smucker" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 3:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Suggestions needed for scroungeable steel
>
>
> > No Chuck it would not! Super Quench is not magic just a fast quench.  To
> do
> > the job the steel has to have the carbon content.  Hey you know that.
> Might
> > work with 1045, but 1060 would be better.  1080 would be great.  4140 or
> > other alloy steels could also do the job, but not mild steel, even the
> evil
> > A 36.
> >
> > Dave Smucker
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chuck Robinson" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 2:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Suggestions needed for scroungeable steel
> >
> >
> > > You can heat treat mild steel in Gunthers super quench, and it should
be
> > > hard enough for your application.
> > > Chuck
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bruce Freeman" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:43 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Suggestions needed for scroungeable steel
> > >
> > >
> > > > Pete,
> > > > This particular TH will be quite simple.  The ram face IS the hammer
> > > > face.  No upper tooling.  Hence it needs to be hard enough not to
> > > > mushroom when it strikes a tool.  I expect to harden and temper it
> like
> > > > an ordinary hammer face.
> > > > Bruce
> > > > NJ
> > > >
> > > > >>> [email protected] 11/18/2003 11:33:20 PM >>>
> > > >
> > > > Bruce:
> > > > I'd respectfully argue that a hard face on a treadle hammer is not
> > > > desirable. A softer face will "stick" to a struck tool allowing
> greater
> > > >
> > > > latitude in alignment. With a hard face, more struck tools go flying
> to
> > > >
> > > > mysterious locations where they hide for years.    Pete F
> > > >
> > > > Bruce Freeman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I'm designing another treadle hammer, a lightweight job.  I want
the
> > > > ram
> > > > >to be 20#.  What would be ideal is square or roundstock of about 2
> > > > >sq.in. in cross-section (i.e., 2" square or 2.25" round) and about
> > > > 18"
> > > > >long.
> > > > >
> > > > >Ideally, the material would be suitable for use as a hammer, with
> > > > >ordinary hardening & tempering.  Exotic materials not needed, but
> > > > mild
> > > > >steel wouldn't be appropriate unless faced with tool steel (a
> > > > >possibility I'd prefer to avoid).
> > > > >
> > > > >Since I prefer to design in scroungeable materials, I could use
some
> > > > >suggestions as to sources of such steel.  The truck axles I've seen
> > > > are
> > > > >of smaller diameter than this (though I've seen tractors with axles
> > > > of
> > > > >3" dia.).  Track pins seem to be shorter than this - like 8" or so.
> > > > >Anyone have any other suggestions - preferably of materials you'd
> > > > have
> > > > >no particular trouble scrounging yourself?
> > > > >
> > > > >Thanks in advance,
> > > > >
> > > > >Bruce
> > > > >NJ
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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