[TheForge] Welding 5160

Sun Aug 24 21:54:00 2003

Ralph:  Sounds like you reflected plenty on the QA issues here.  The 700F
temp will soften  a hardened/tempered piece of 5160.

This alloy is medium carbon (60 pt.) steel that is very tough and well
suited for the application you have.  It is also not high in chromium (0.70
to 0.90%) , which would prompt me to use a regular carbon (for hard service)
vs. stainless filler.  The chromium at this level produces even hardening in
thicker sections, vs. the 12-13% required to make steels truly stain
resistant.  This alloy is used for swords, axes and BIG bowies, etc.  The
4140 type alloys are 40 pt. nickel /chromium alloys that are still
considered "carbon steels" and are used in firearms because of their
excellent shock resistance.  I would still use fillers recommended for
carbon steels vs. stainless.  Preheating and  subsequent stress relieving
are always a good idea with any tool steel.  You have thought of this
already.

Heat treating 5160 is simple.  Critical temps are 1550F to 1600F, hold for
one hour per inch of thickness.  However, it is HIGHLY advisable to
construct an igloo if using a gas forge, to keep LPG flame off of piece.  I
routinely do this when forging blades from air-hardening steels such as A2
or ATS-34

Use pure hardwood charcoal thrown into furnace to reduce oxygen and quench
in oil.  Tempering can be done in home oven at 450-500F..brighten area of
steel to reveal color and soak until blue color is present.  Quench whole
piece again in room temp water  to arrest tempering process.

I hope this helps

Grant

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160

> Grant and Dan,  Thanks for the responses.
>
>         I had figured the best option would be to buy or make another arm,
> the second was to repair this one.
>         We were told it was 5160 and the fellow who owned the hammer had
> some cheap drills that were pretty dull.  When I got the arms here, I
found
> that a drill would "sliver" cut the arm, and a file would affect it and
not
> skate.   So I assumed I had an "as forged" piece of 5160.  I figured it
> would have a certain hardness to it being it was a medium carbon steel
with
> .60 points of carbon.
>
>         If it had been hardened I would have considered two options:
>     1) use stainless or a rod such as Dan mentioned with alloys to allow
for
> deflection. If it broke you would be dealing with no other option but
> stainless at this point if you were trying to keep the rods equal length.
>     2) Anneal, grind bevel equal from both sides, weld with a strong
tensile
> strength rod 8018 or 10018. Oil harden, temper(which I felt would be
> difficult with the gear at my shop.
>
>         It wasn't hardened from my estimation of drilling and file
testing,
> and it was definitely a medium carbon steel so I'm assuming the 5160 (we
> were told) was in the ball park from the spark test I did comparing it to
> another piece of known 5160 I had.
>         So I approached it like this:  Cut bevels with plasma cutter to
keep
> heat down and remove crystalized metal at break, Jiged broken parts with
> good fit at break for alignment of pin 90 degrees to arm, and keeping arm
> straight with clamps.  The arms were arced, so I used shims to keep it in
> the identical arc using the first arm as my pattern.   I set up some
> firebricks with the broken smaller 4 1/2" end and the arm resting on a
piece
> of 1 x 4 flat bar as a heat sink..........or I should say a heat holder.
> The small part was on the heated flat bar and out over the brick allowing
me
> to align, clamp, and wedge the parts to exactly the arc I needed.  I
> preheated to 450 degrees, then welded the two sides, tacked the center
with
> a 3/4" stitch, flipped the arm and welded the back side, then came back
and
> completed the top side.   I kept staggering my stringer beads and checking
> with a tempil marker not letting the project get above 700 degrees
anywhere.
> (the ears that held the rollers tended to get hot the fastest).   I
> completed the welding, let it cool slowly, then ground everything like a
> gradual stress riser into the ears so there were no undercuts either, and
> all welds were above original surface and brought back to that surface
again
> after grinding.
>         When the part was cool it still cut the same as before with a
drill
> and file.  So I'm assuming I have a 5160 as forged arm, with a repair done
> between 450 and 700 so I should have done the least damage as possible to
it
> for grain change.
>
>         Not being really familiar with 5160 and not having done this alloy
> repair before, could you comment on the rods I used (low hydrogen high
> tensile strength, with elongation qualities) .......as I used a dual
shield
> wire I have used in the past for fastening mild and medium carbon steels
to
> HY80, HY100, and T1 - in heavy equipment repair.  It was not however the
> wire I also have for connecting those HY80, HY100, and T1 to themselves.
> Would you have chosen that wire? or a different wire or rod?
>         Would you have annealed and heat treated the 5160 no matter what?
> even with the drill slivers and file test showing what I would call half
> hard or as forged conditions..........or is that how a "tough spring steel
> would react when properly heat treated?
>         Not knowing if this is how heat treated 5160 would react, I opted
> out of using stainless alloys and staying away from the heat treated
> question and solution of  "use stainless when in doubt".
>         I'm new to this material and just looking for some pointers.  I've
> made lots of power hammer tools out of the 4140HT which is also called
4142
> or "half hard" heat treated to a 35-40 rockwell and they hold up fairly
well
> to the task as welded to a handle (with regular wire and not stainless).
>
>         If you don't mind answering a couple more questions:
>
>         When welding a handle to a forged air hardened, or forged spring
> steel .......it is obviously hard then from heated, forged, and air
cooled.
> I have always made practice of welding with stainless rod at this
juncture.
> Would you recomend continuing this? or do you have other suggestions on
> fastening handles to hardened or forged tool and spring steels?
>
> Thanks for any input you may have to offer, as all my results have been by
> trail and error.
>
> Ralph
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
>
>
> > Ralph:  I misread your post.....if it is 5160, it is medium carbon and
was
> > likely heat treated.  If so, you may have a soft spot at the joint.  You
> can
> > always heat treat the whole piece, if need be....just quench in oil vs.
> > water.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> >
> >
> > > Ralph:  There are a number of welding rods that would work well for
that
> > > application.  I have made similar repairs on shock-loaded members and
> > > usually what I did was to verify the needed  LOA of the piece and
bevel
> > each
> > > side of the joint steeply, with ridge (or gap) left in the middle that
> > > guaranteed the LOA.   Then preheat the surfaces to be joined.
> > >
> > > If you need to clamp the pieces firmly, clamp them in the "V" of a
piece
> > of
> > > angle-iron at the needed LOA.  This acts as a splint that holds the
> pieces
> > > at a predetermined position.
> > >
> > >   Weld by first tacking the piece and then filling the bevels so the
> beads
> > > are just above the original surfaces.  Make sure that the filling
beads
> > are
> > > run in a connecting line to the joined ends of the original piece.  I
> > would
> > > suspect the tension arms are of carbon steel, probably in the 40 pt.
> > range,
> > > like axles.
> > >
> > >  I don't know if these arms are heat-treated, so the welding will undo
> the
> > > heat treat near the joint.  Before welding, check with the edge of a
> file.
> > > If a good file barely bites and makes a high-pitched scraping sound,
the
> > > metal is likely heat treated.  If the file bites easily with a lower
> > pitched
> > > sound, the piece is likely not heat treated.   just my cents
> > >
> > > Grant
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:33 PM
> > > Subject: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > >
> > >
> > > >     Here's a question I should have asked earlier..........  Any
> > comments
> > > on
> > > > welding 5160?
> > > >
> > > >         Today I welded up a broken tension arm from a #4 Beaudry
Power
> > > > hammer.  We'll see if it holds together when the hammer goes back
into
> > use
> > > > on Monday(then I'll really know if my plan was a good one or not).
> :-)
> > > >
> > > >         I used a particular method I thought might work, and I
wonder
> > what
> > > > others would say on how to do it..........
> > > >
> > > > Ralph
> > > >
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