[TheForge] Welding 5160
Ralph Sproul
[email protected]
Sun Aug 24 21:05:01 2003
Grant and Dan, Thanks for the responses.
I had figured the best option would be to buy or make another arm,
the second was to repair this one.
We were told it was 5160 and the fellow who owned the hammer had
some cheap drills that were pretty dull. When I got the arms here, I found
that a drill would "sliver" cut the arm, and a file would affect it and not
skate. So I assumed I had an "as forged" piece of 5160. I figured it
would have a certain hardness to it being it was a medium carbon steel with
.60 points of carbon.
If it had been hardened I would have considered two options:
1) use stainless or a rod such as Dan mentioned with alloys to allow for
deflection. If it broke you would be dealing with no other option but
stainless at this point if you were trying to keep the rods equal length.
2) Anneal, grind bevel equal from both sides, weld with a strong tensile
strength rod 8018 or 10018. Oil harden, temper(which I felt would be
difficult with the gear at my shop.
It wasn't hardened from my estimation of drilling and file testing,
and it was definitely a medium carbon steel so I'm assuming the 5160 (we
were told) was in the ball park from the spark test I did comparing it to
another piece of known 5160 I had.
So I approached it like this: Cut bevels with plasma cutter to keep
heat down and remove crystalized metal at break, Jiged broken parts with
good fit at break for alignment of pin 90 degrees to arm, and keeping arm
straight with clamps. The arms were arced, so I used shims to keep it in
the identical arc using the first arm as my pattern. I set up some
firebricks with the broken smaller 4 1/2" end and the arm resting on a piece
of 1 x 4 flat bar as a heat sink..........or I should say a heat holder.
The small part was on the heated flat bar and out over the brick allowing me
to align, clamp, and wedge the parts to exactly the arc I needed. I
preheated to 450 degrees, then welded the two sides, tacked the center with
a 3/4" stitch, flipped the arm and welded the back side, then came back and
completed the top side. I kept staggering my stringer beads and checking
with a tempil marker not letting the project get above 700 degrees anywhere.
(the ears that held the rollers tended to get hot the fastest). I
completed the welding, let it cool slowly, then ground everything like a
gradual stress riser into the ears so there were no undercuts either, and
all welds were above original surface and brought back to that surface again
after grinding.
When the part was cool it still cut the same as before with a drill
and file. So I'm assuming I have a 5160 as forged arm, with a repair done
between 450 and 700 so I should have done the least damage as possible to it
for grain change.
Not being really familiar with 5160 and not having done this alloy
repair before, could you comment on the rods I used (low hydrogen high
tensile strength, with elongation qualities) .......as I used a dual shield
wire I have used in the past for fastening mild and medium carbon steels to
HY80, HY100, and T1 - in heavy equipment repair. It was not however the
wire I also have for connecting those HY80, HY100, and T1 to themselves.
Would you have chosen that wire? or a different wire or rod?
Would you have annealed and heat treated the 5160 no matter what?
even with the drill slivers and file test showing what I would call half
hard or as forged conditions..........or is that how a "tough spring steel
would react when properly heat treated?
Not knowing if this is how heat treated 5160 would react, I opted
out of using stainless alloys and staying away from the heat treated
question and solution of "use stainless when in doubt".
I'm new to this material and just looking for some pointers. I've
made lots of power hammer tools out of the 4140HT which is also called 4142
or "half hard" heat treated to a 35-40 rockwell and they hold up fairly well
to the task as welded to a handle (with regular wire and not stainless).
If you don't mind answering a couple more questions:
When welding a handle to a forged air hardened, or forged spring
steel .......it is obviously hard then from heated, forged, and air cooled.
I have always made practice of welding with stainless rod at this juncture.
Would you recomend continuing this? or do you have other suggestions on
fastening handles to hardened or forged tool and spring steels?
Thanks for any input you may have to offer, as all my results have been by
trail and error.
Ralph
----- Original Message -----
From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> Ralph: I misread your post.....if it is 5160, it is medium carbon and was
> likely heat treated. If so, you may have a soft spot at the joint. You
can
> always heat treat the whole piece, if need be....just quench in oil vs.
> water.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
>
>
> > Ralph: There are a number of welding rods that would work well for that
> > application. I have made similar repairs on shock-loaded members and
> > usually what I did was to verify the needed LOA of the piece and bevel
> each
> > side of the joint steeply, with ridge (or gap) left in the middle that
> > guaranteed the LOA. Then preheat the surfaces to be joined.
> >
> > If you need to clamp the pieces firmly, clamp them in the "V" of a piece
> of
> > angle-iron at the needed LOA. This acts as a splint that holds the
pieces
> > at a predetermined position.
> >
> > Weld by first tacking the piece and then filling the bevels so the
beads
> > are just above the original surfaces. Make sure that the filling beads
> are
> > run in a connecting line to the joined ends of the original piece. I
> would
> > suspect the tension arms are of carbon steel, probably in the 40 pt.
> range,
> > like axles.
> >
> > I don't know if these arms are heat-treated, so the welding will undo
the
> > heat treat near the joint. Before welding, check with the edge of a
file.
> > If a good file barely bites and makes a high-pitched scraping sound, the
> > metal is likely heat treated. If the file bites easily with a lower
> pitched
> > sound, the piece is likely not heat treated. just my cents
> >
> > Grant
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:33 PM
> > Subject: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> >
> >
> > > Here's a question I should have asked earlier.......... Any
> comments
> > on
> > > welding 5160?
> > >
> > > Today I welded up a broken tension arm from a #4 Beaudry Power
> > > hammer. We'll see if it holds together when the hammer goes back into
> use
> > > on Monday(then I'll really know if my plan was a good one or not).
:-)
> > >
> > > I used a particular method I thought might work, and I wonder
> what
> > > others would say on how to do it..........
> > >
> > > Ralph
> > >
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