[TheForge] help
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Wed Aug 13 16:25:04 2003
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Sent: 13 August 2003 09:02
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Subject: TheForge digest, Vol 4 #522 - 11 msgs
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: Rust,pickling (gblacksmith)
2. Re: Rust Patina Finish (Chuck Robinson)
3. Re: Help with hinges (Lynn Emrich)
4. Re: thin black paint (Lynn Emrich)
5. Re: Help with hinges (Dragons Watch Forge)
6. Re: Rust,pickling (Mike Spencer)
7. Re: thin black paint (Reynolds)
8. Re: Re: Rust Patina Finish (R.C.Mundt)
9. Re: Cheap Autodarkening Welding Helmet. (R.C.Mundt)
10. RE: coefficient of expansion (Daniel T. Hayes)
11. Re: Rust Patina Finish (Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer)
--__--__--
Message: 1
From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: Rust,pickling
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:21:13 -0700
Reply-To: [email protected]
Mike: I typically use plain Anhydrous Borax and get no leaching, at least
on blades.
Grant
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Spencer" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 1:14 PM
Subject: [TheForge] Re: Rust,pickling
>
> Andy> Last thing I used phospho on had a lot of white powder on the
> Andy> surface, kind of like that flux discoloration on forge-welded
> Andy> items.
>
> Grant> The discoloration you mention is the "salts" leaching out of small
> Grant> joints on the surface.
>
> I think you have two separate things there. The traces of white after
> phosphate should come off with some fine steel wool. But if it's
> gotten down into cracks or joints, it may take a bit of washing, tooth
> brushing and waiting (as Grant says) before it's all gone. I've found
> that the salts that work out of forge welded joints is a real
> nuisance. Maybe my forge welds should be better or my flux
> different. Dunno.
>
> - Mike
>
> --
> Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
> /V\
> [email protected] /( )\
> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ^^-^^
>
> --
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--__--__--
Message: 2
From: "Chuck Robinson" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:33:03 -0500
Subject: [TheForge] Re: Rust Patina Finish
Reply-To: [email protected]
In case you folks want to know more about rust converters, check out
http://www.alan.net/prgshoptips/rustconv.html
Chuck
--__--__--
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:08:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lynn Emrich <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Help with hinges
To: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
Bruce, thanks much for the reply!
What I would like to have is a simple hinge for a
heavy gate going into my back yard. It will be
constructed of pressure treated and 'pecky' cypress.
Mostly because the doors to my house are the same.
I looked at all the hinges in the major on line
sources but nothing struck my fancy. I would just like
lots of 'curlicues' but nothing like leaves or the
like.
I have seen hinges wrapped around the hinge pin so
that the first bolt is what keeps them together. That
looks like something I could do.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Lynn
--- Bruce Freeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> How to make them depends upon what sort you plan to
> make.
> Hinge-and-pintle are common. The pintle either
> drives into or bolts
> through a gate post. Other sorts of hinges lack a
> pintle (as do the
> common hinges on modern doors) and mount on the gate
> and on the fence -
> not on the post. Hinges may be either welded or
> not. Then there are
> choices of strap-hinges or shorter lengths, and of
> many, many elaborate
> shapes and frills. One thing to remember is that
> strap hinges sometimes
> were used to help hold the gate together, in
> addition to being the
> hinge.
>
> So, first tell us what you have in mind, and then
> maybe we can help.
>
> Bruce
> NJ
>
> >>> [email protected] 08/06/03 09:33AM >>>
> Could someone point a complete dummy to help for
> making gate hinges? Maybe some basic help for me who
> has only successfully forged knives and swords?
> What I'm looking for is a decorative hinge for my
> yard
> gate. Must be large and strong for the heavy gate
> I'm
> building. A reference to pictures or books would be
> a
> big help.
> Thanks much, Lynn
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--__--__--
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:13:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lynn Emrich <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] thin black paint
To: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
I guess I'm cheating using "hammeright". It's just a
black paint that drys with a wrinkle finish. No primer
needed. It's been on a bell that I inherited from my
father for about 5 years and just now needs re
coating.
Lynn
--- Roger Olsen <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I would think a black patina would be what you may
> like. I have had very happy
> results with the Sur-Fin patinas and have used their
> black quite a bit. You
> could clear coat over the patina with a gloss or
> satin or flat to your liking.
>
> A black patina does not look like a paint finish but
> it is hard to describe the
> visual differences with a keyboard.
>
> Roger Olsen
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--__--__--
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:56:17 -0500
From: Dragons Watch Forge <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Help with hinges
Reply-To: [email protected]
I have a book I picked up in a B&N titled "Wrought Iron in
Architecture, An Illustrated Survey" by Gerald K. Geerling first
published in 1929. It has some excellent examples of hinges in it as
well as other outstanding iron work. Many of the works pictured may not
exist today considering the wars that have taken place in Europe since
the books publication. You may get some ideas from it.
Larry
Lynn Emrich wrote:
>Bruce, thanks much for the reply!
>What I would like to have is a simple hinge for a
>heavy gate going into my back yard. It will be
>constructed of pressure treated and 'pecky' cypress.
>Mostly because the doors to my house are the same.
>I looked at all the hinges in the major on line
>sources but nothing struck my fancy. I would just like
>lots of 'curlicues' but nothing like leaves or the
>like.
>I have seen hinges wrapped around the hinge pin so
>that the first bolt is what keeps them together. That
>looks like something I could do.
>Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>Lynn
>
>
>
>
>
--__--__--
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:16:09 -0300
From: [email protected] (Mike Spencer)
To: [email protected]
Subject: [TheForge] Re: Rust,pickling
Reply-To: [email protected]
me> I've found that the salts that work out of forge welded joints is
me> a real nuisance.
Grant> I typically use plain Anhydrous Borax and get no leaching, at
Grant> least on blades.
I'll keep that in mind. I've used that but tend to like the
commerecial flux with iron filings in it for things like sticking
flower stems together and that's just the kind of weld that harbors
flux down in the crutch of the join. Maybe I shd pratice a bit more
with borax. I found it sorta slippery and harder to use singlehanded
where I couldn't wire or tack the pieces together before heating.
Since the last time I dehydrated any borax , I've acquired a couple of
very heavy iron bowls that might mnake perfect mortars for grinding up
the glassy borax after melting it.
- Mike
--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
/V\
[email protected] /( )\
http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ^^-^^
--
--__--__--
Message: 7
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TheForge] thin black paint
From: "Reynolds" <[email protected]>
Cc:
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:16:27 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: [email protected]
Ries:
Great post, as usual. Lots of common sense, but as the adage goes, common
sense isn't common. Thanks for your willingness to share from your
experience in such a considerate and substantive way.
Reynolds
.....Paint isnt permanent. All the grand ironwork of europe that is painted
was repainted regularly by the everpresent servant class.....
We have this myth now, particularly in the construction industry, that we
should be able to guarantee things forever.
_______________________________________________
--__--__--
Message: 8
From: "R.C.Mundt" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: Rust Patina Finish
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:09:16 -0600
Reply-To: [email protected]
Read about it years ago and can' t remember for sure but seems like
phophoric acid is part of the parkerized finish on military firearms.
Randy Mundt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Spencer" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 11:32 AM
Subject: [TheForge] Re: Rust Patina Finish
>
> >> The untested answer is a phosphoric acid pickle.
> >
> > ...I thought of nasty acids, which never stop eating through the
> > steel. But Phosporic, now that could be something else again.
>
> Very much so. Depending on what you do after pickling, phosphoric acid
> leaves more or less of a tightly adhereing coat of iron phosphate on
> the metal. Experimenting with different concentrations of acid and
> with flushing, light rinsing, wiping, steel wooling etc. after the
> pickle will be enlightening. The comercial product is a thick
> liquid and should be diluted with water. In a chilly shop, an
> immersion heater will help to keep it up in tepid-to-kinda-warm range.
>
> One test piece -- a repouse experiment in 16 ga m/s -- I pickled in
> phosphoric and only wiped dry, resulting in a uniform matte grey
> finish. No wash/rinse, no wax or other coating. It lay on a shelf in
> a damp shop for over a decade. After a few years, neighboring pieces
> of sheet metal and bar had turned all rusty. When I moved my shop and
> this piece had been there well over 10 years, it had a few small rust
> spots on it.
>
> I've finished several pieces with phosphoric acid pickle, light rinse,
> wipe dry, light rub with 4/0 steel wool, Brownell's Oxpho-blue,
> carnauba wax. These have resisted rust (indoors) better than pieces
> finished the same but without the phosphoric pickling step.
>
> And phosphoric acid is wayyyy less dangerous to work with than
> HCl/muriatic, battery acid/H2SO4 or nitric. Of course you don't drink
> it (er, well, actually, you may, in dilute form in some cola-type soft
> drinks :-), nor put it your eyes or nor soak your hands in it. But if
> you get a bit on your skin, you *don't* get instant blisters or have body
> parts slough off while you're running to the sink or shower.
>
>
> - Mike
>
> --
> Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
> /V\
> [email protected] /( )\
> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ^^-^^
>
> --
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> theforge mail list group photo site is
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> password: anvil
> ___________
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>
>
--__--__--
Message: 9
From: "R.C.Mundt" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cheap Autodarkening Welding Helmet.
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:29:38 -0600
Reply-To: [email protected]
I spent around 20 years working for construction companies, in the summers I
helped build streets and parking lots in the winter I worked in the shop
welding mostly. One day one of the bosses went to pick some work a local
machine shop was doing for us. When he walked in the shop the owner was
using a mig welder w/ no eye protection, just squinting his eyes, he asked .
"Do you have rocks in your head?" The owner of the machine shop replied
"hell I've been doing this for years".
Randy Mundt
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cheap Autodarkening Welding Helmet.
> I need to send the note to Discovery Channel, not the forge. Watched
> three shows in a row where it was needed. American Chopper, while two
> guys tacked items for probably a couple of hours with no helmet or eye
> protection of any kind other than squinting. Followed by Monster House,
> where the welder was wearing a helmet, but was surrounded by un
> protected onlookers, and finally Monster Garage where one of the team
> was doing overhead welding with no helmet.
>
> Charles
>
> dann wrote:
>
> > I thought ( and still think) that $130 was cheap compared to the cost
> > of a pair regular or bifocal glasses, and considering how many times
> > over the years that I welded little stuff WITHOUT my helmet because
> > of the hassle / fighting with my standard "nod" helmet.
> >
> > Dann Johnson
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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--__--__--
Message: 10
From: "Daniel T. Hayes" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [TheForge] coefficient of expansion
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:11:36 -0400
Reply-To: [email protected]
Mike,
Good handbook and worthwhile addition to the library. Quick download too.
Thanks,
Dan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Mike Linn
> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 11:44 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [TheForge] coefficient of expansion
>
>
>
> "The Gage Block Handbook" by Beers and Doiron. Ted Doiron runs the gage
> block calibration program at NIST.
> I'll be drinking Guinness with him next week in Tampa.
>
> see
> http://www.ts.nist.gov/ts/htdocs/230/233/calibrations/dimensional/
> pubs/MN180.pdf
> (large document)
>
> and
>
> http://nvl.nist.gov/pub/nistpubs/jres/102/6/j26doi.pdf
> (not quite so
> large)
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> At 12:02 PM 8/11/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >Mike,
> >
> >Do you have a reference on the NIST study (professional interest)?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Dan
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected]
> > > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Mike Linn
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:54 PM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] coefficient of expansion
> > >
>
>
> Mike Linn
> Artist Blacksmith
> McCalla, AL
> AFC Webmaster
> http://afc.abana-chapter.net
>
> Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for
> anything, but you still can't help but smile when you
> see one tumble down the stairs.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--__--__--
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:40:54 -0700
From: Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Rust Patina Finish
Reply-To: [email protected]
Hi Bruce;
Having tested a tannic and a phosphoric acid pickle as well as tannic
and phosphoric acid finishes( rust converters). They are good prep for
painting. I find it lasts up to a few months, inside, unpainted. Outside
in the salt air, it is rusting again in a week or less.....our friend
and critic , rust
There are also similar products that add a plastic sealer like
Corroseal which are better sub-primers and last for months outdoors ,
even longer sometimes.
Ever notice how very little ironwork has survived from the early
beginnings of our craft?
Bruce Freeman wrote:
>The untested answer is a phosphoric acid pickle.
>
>Bruce
>NJ
>
>
>
>>>>[email protected] 08/11/03 02:14AM >>>
>>>>
>>>>
><snip>
>I suppose my equvalent question is, does anybody know an easy and
>convient way to avoid a rust finish?.........Pete F
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
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