[SixClub] New to Six Meters

RICHARD BOYD ke3q at msn.com
Tue Jan 18 19:06:06 EST 2005 

hihi.  No, that's the correct info.  But the intent is not to put it all up 
in one length.  My plan is to go no higher than 200' with any one tower (the 
height at which you have to register with the FAA and put lights no it, 
which is a big hassle and expense).
73 - Rich, KE3Q


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <kg4ssy at comcast.net>
To: "World Wide Six Meter Club" <sixclub at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [SixClub] New to Six Meters


> Is this a misprint? 3000' and 10,000' of tower? Do you use a helicopter to 
> do your antenna work?? heh-heh-heh
>
> -------------- Original message -------------- 
>
> > Very good, Steve. We understand each other then. I am certainly one who
> > believes in big antennas and many of them! (I currently have 3,000' of
> > tower, have another 10,000' of tower coming soon, hope to put up a 
> > couple
> > thousand feet of it, with multiple antennas and stacks on all the HF 
> > bands,
> > and some serious VHF and UHF stuff too!)
> >
> > The flip side is that this guy is asking what he "needs." To me, "need" 
> > is
> > a very strong word. And there is a tendency for a lot of people to tell 
> > a
> > new guy he needs bigger and better stuff. I appreciate that that's nice 
> > to
> > have, but I hate to discourage beginners by telling them they need 
> > bigger
> > stuff; it's better to get on with whatever you have, the point I tried 
> > to
> > make about my low 6M dipole. I could still work stuff; it worked pretty
> > well. As good as a yagi? No, except that it was relatively
> > omnidirectional, which has advantages. So, if the new guy needs a yagi, 
> > he
> > also needs a rotator, most people will tell him that on a vent pipe on a 
> > low
> > roof isn't high enough, etc., so he's going to get the impression he 
> > needs a
> > tower that's at least X height, etc.
> >
> > A couple engineers I know who are well known hams would typically and
> > predictably come back to the original poster with, "It totally depends 
> > on
> > what you want to do with it." I tried to touch on that point. It 
> > depends.
> > I could have gotten more detailed. Taking your message as a takeoff 
> > point,
> > for example, I could have said, "If you want to talk to your buddy a few
> > miles away, if you want to maybe work DX a few days a year when the band 
> > is
> > open, the vertical will be okay. If you want to work stuff out to a few
> > hundred miles every day of the year (trying to very briefly summarize 
> > what
> > you said I think), then you need more.
> >
> > Though HF is my main thing and my experience on VHF is more limited, my 
> > own
> > "thing" on 6M, for instance, is not to work New York every day, but to 
> > get
> > on when there's a good opening happening. That is what 6M is for me and 
> > I
> > suspect for many others. It's the openings that are fun, and at those 
> > times
> > even the most basic antennas can work. Not as well as something big, but
> > they're adequate.
> >
> > Now, if this guy had asked the question differently, like, "I have 
> > $1,000 to
> > spend for antennas for 6M; what should I get?" that's a different 
> > question.
> > Then I think I would have said a C7I yagi, a reliable rotator, and a 50'
> > tower, something like that.
> >
> > Anyway, it sounds like we're in agreement but we've made different 
> > points,
> > we have different emphases.
> > Mine: Depends on what you want to do. If you have simple wants the
> > vertical will be fine. Getting on with what you have is better than not
> > getting on because you can't afford or can't get around to getting 
> > something
> > better.
> > Yours: The yagi will allow you to do more every day rather than wait for 
> > 25
> > days of openings per year.
> >
> > 73 - Rich KE3Q
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Steve Katz"
> > To: "'World Wide Six Meter Club'" ; "'Mike (KA5CVH)
> > Urich'"
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:30 PM
> > Subject: RE: [SixClub] New to Six Meters
> >
> >
> > > Hi Rich,
> > >
> > > My comments weren't aimed at you, they were in response to the 
> > > original
> > > post
> > > about 6m antennas, and for general delivery for list members.
> > >
> > > No problem with what you posted, at all -- although I always 
> > > "encourage"
> > > people to put all their marbles in the antenna basket, ahead of any 
> > > other
> > > investments in six meters or weak signal VHF work in general, as the
> > > R.O.I.
> > > with antennas is by far higher than with any other station improvement 
> > > any
> > > of us can make. I doubt anyone would disagree!
> > >
> > > 73
> > >
> > > Steve WB2WIK/6
> > >
> > > -----Original Message----- 
> > > From: RICHARD BOYD [mailto:ke3q at msn.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:20 AM
> > > To: World Wide Six Meter Club; 'Mike (KA5CVH) Urich'
> > > Subject: Re: [SixClub] New to Six Meters
> > >
> > >
> > > I stand by what I said. I see no contradiction. 73 - Rich, KE3Q
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Steve Katz"
> > > To: "'World Wide Six Meter Club'" ; "'Mike
> > > (KA5CVH)
> > >
> > > Urich'"
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:30 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [SixClub] New to Six Meters
> > >
> > >
> > > > I've written this many times, but some missed it and for some I 
> > > > think it
> > > > just doesn't sink in. VHF is very different from HF. If you want to
> > > > make
> > > > contacts only when the "band's open" on six, you won't be busy very 
> > > > many
> > > > days a year. Having good antennas is mostly for the *OTHER* 340 days 
> > > > a
> > > > year, when the band is *not* open. Since most VHF-UHF contacts are
> > > > tropo
> > > > scatter, a mode that can propagate signals very long distances only 
> > > > when
> > > > larger antennas are used (or operating locations are greatly
> > > > advantageous,
> > > > like being on a mountaintop), every small antenna improvement can 
> > > > yield
> > > > large, noticeable improvements in working radius. Here's why 
> > > > "working
> > > > radius" is important:
> > > >
> > > > Say you have a 6m vertical and a 100W station and can usually work 
> > > > other
> > > > stations within a 50 mile radius. With 6m activity and population
> > > > density
> > > > as it is, that means you can regularly work 20 stations. Now, you
> > > > improve
> > > > to a horizontal rotary beam antenna and find you can usually work 
> > > > other
> > > > stations within a 200 mile radius (not an unusual change). Now, 
> > > > you've
> > > > just
> > > > improved your "coverage area" from 7854 square miles (50 mile 
> > > > radius) to
> > > > a
> > > > whopping 125,664 square miles (200 mile radius). Assuming population
> > > > density remains equal, and number of 6m operators per square mile
> > > > remains
> > > > equal, you've just increased how many stations you can regularly 
> > > > hear
> > > > and
> > > > work, from 20 to 320. Yes, twenty to three-hundred twenty. So, 
> > > > you've
> > > > multiplied the number of stations you can routinely contact by a 
> > > > factor
> > > > of
> > > > 16 to 1, simply by adding a small beam.
> > > >
> > > > This is *not* an unusual improvement, by any means. Remember, 90% of
> > > > all
> > > > stations you can contact on six meters *will* be "weak," fairly 
> > > > close to
> > > > the
> > > > noise level. That's the nature of VHF SSB-CW work, and what makes it
> > > > interesting and exciting in the first place. It doesn't matter what 
> > > > you
> > > > run, how big your antenna is, or where you're located, this fact
> > > > remains:
> > > > 90% of your contacts will be "weak." As you improve your station, 
> > > > your
> > > > antennas, your location, the QUANTITY of weak stations you can work 
> > > > will
> > > > increase dramatically, but 90% will still be weak -- there will just 
> > > > be
> > > > a
> > > > lot more of them.
> > > >
> > > > And geometry's a powerful thing. When you increase your working 
> > > > radius,
> > > > you
> > > > increase the number of stations you can contact by the square of the
> > > > radius.
> > > > A two to one increase in radius yields a four to one increase in the
> > > > population you can contact. A three to one increase in radius yields 
> > > > a
> > > > *nine* to one increase in the population you can contact. It's 
> > > > simple
> > > > math,
> > > > but easy to forget when you're considering antenna changes.
> > > >
> > > > I have a 7L 6m horizontal beam on a tower, and also a "Ringo" 6m
> > > > vertical
> > > > (1/2-wavelength, works well for FM-repeaters -- far better than the
> > > > horizontal beam, actually, since it has compatible polarity) on the 
> > > > roof
> > > > of
> > > > my home. If I tune around on six, on an average Sunday morning, 
> > > > turning
> > > > the
> > > > beam around listening for weak stations, I can usually hear 10-20
> > > > stations
> > > > on the band (no openings, no contests!). If I switch to the 
> > > > vertical,
> > > > that
> > > > quantity drops to maybe two or three stations. Big difference.
> > > >
> > > > 73 & good luck!
> > > >
> > > > Steve WB2WIK/6
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It's a question of how big a signal you want to have, and that's at
> > > > least
> > > > in
> > > >
> > > > part relative to what sort of signals others have. The larger an
> > > > antenna
> > > > you go to (more accurately, the more effective, the more gain and 
> > > > other
> > > > factors, but let's say gain as the most obvious one -- and height 
> > > > above
> > > > ground, how high the antenna will be) the greater your ability to 
> > > > get
> > > > through when conditions don't quite favor you, when the band isn't 
> > > > quite
> > > > open, or isn't all the way open, etc., and if you have one of the
> > > > smaller
> > > > stations or signals, you may have to wait for many, many others to 
> > > > get
> > > > through to a DX station before you get through. If you just want to
> > > > talk
> > > > to
> > > >
> > > > your buddy a few miles away, it doesn't take much. If you want to 
> > > > work
> > > > DXCC, get through on the first call to rare stations, etc. you might
> > > > want
> > > > to
> > > >
> > > > upgrade a little at a time, etc., which is what most of us have 
> > > > done.
> > > >
> > > >
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