[SixClub] New to Six Meters

Tue Jan 18 14:49:03 EST 2005

Very good, Steve.  We understand each other then.  I am certainly one who 
believes in big antennas and many of them!  (I currently have 3,000' of 
tower, have another 10,000' of tower coming soon, hope to put up a couple 
thousand feet of it, with multiple antennas and stacks on all the HF bands, 
and some serious VHF and UHF stuff too!)

The flip side is that this guy is asking what he "needs."  To me, "need" is 
a very strong word.  And there is a tendency for a lot of people to tell a 
new guy he needs bigger and better stuff.  I appreciate that that's nice to 
have, but I hate to discourage beginners by telling them they need bigger 
stuff; it's better to get on with whatever you have, the point I tried to 
make about my low 6M dipole.  I could still work stuff; it worked pretty 
well.  As good as a yagi?  No, except that it was relatively 
omnidirectional, which has advantages.  So, if the new guy needs a yagi, he 
also needs a rotator, most people will tell him that on a vent pipe on a low 
roof isn't high enough, etc., so he's going to get the impression he needs a 
tower that's at least X height, etc.

A couple engineers I know who are well known hams would typically and 
predictably come back to the original poster with, "It totally depends on 
what you want to do with it."  I tried to touch on that point.  It depends. 
I could have gotten more detailed.  Taking your message as a takeoff point, 
for example, I could have said, "If you want to talk to your buddy a few 
miles away, if you want to maybe work DX a few days a year when the band is 
open, the vertical will be okay.  If you want to work stuff out to a few 
hundred miles every day of the year (trying to very briefly summarize what 
you said I think), then you need more.

Though HF is my main thing and my experience on VHF is more limited, my own 
"thing" on 6M, for instance, is not to work New York every day, but to get 
on when there's a good opening happening.  That is what 6M is for me and I 
suspect for many others.  It's the openings that are fun, and at those times 
even the most basic antennas can work.  Not as well as something big, but 
they're adequate.

Now, if this guy had asked the question differently, like, "I have $1,000 to 
spend for antennas for 6M; what should I get?" that's a different question. 
Then I think I would have said a C7I yagi, a reliable rotator, and a 50' 
tower, something like that.

Anyway, it sounds like we're in agreement but we've made different points, 
we have different emphases.
Mine:  Depends on what you want to do.  If you have simple wants the 
vertical will be fine.  Getting on with what you have is better than not 
getting on because you can't afford or can't get around to getting something 
better.
Yours:  The yagi will allow you to do more every day rather than wait for 25 
days of openings per year.

73 - Rich KE3Q

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Katz" <stevek at jmr.com>
To: "'World Wide Six Meter Club'" <sixclub at mailman.qth.net>; "'Mike (KA5CVH) 
Urich'" <ka5cvh at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:30 PM
Subject: RE: [SixClub] New to Six Meters

> Hi Rich,
>
> My comments weren't aimed at you, they were in response to the original 
> post
> about 6m antennas, and for general delivery for list members.
>
> No problem with what you posted, at all -- although I always "encourage"
> people to put all their marbles in the antenna basket, ahead of any other
> investments in six meters or weak signal VHF work in general, as the 
> R.O.I.
> with antennas is by far higher than with any other station improvement any
> of us can make.  I doubt anyone would disagree!
>
> 73
>
> Steve WB2WIK/6
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RICHARD BOYD [mailto:ke3q at msn.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:20 AM
> To: World Wide Six Meter Club; 'Mike (KA5CVH) Urich'
> Subject: Re: [SixClub] New to Six Meters
>
>
> I stand by what I said.  I see no contradiction.  73 - Rich, KE3Q
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Katz" <stevek at jmr.com>
> To: "'World Wide Six Meter Club'" <sixclub at mailman.qth.net>; "'Mike 
> (KA5CVH)
>
> Urich'" <ka5cvh at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:30 PM
> Subject: RE: [SixClub] New to Six Meters
>
>
> > I've written this many times, but some missed it and for some I think it
> > just doesn't sink in.  VHF is very different from HF.  If you want to 
> > make
> > contacts only when the "band's open" on six, you won't be busy very many
> > days a year.  Having good antennas is mostly for the *OTHER* 340 days a
> > year, when the band is *not* open.  Since most VHF-UHF contacts are 
> > tropo
> > scatter, a mode that can propagate signals very long distances only when
> > larger antennas are used (or operating locations are greatly 
> > advantageous,
> > like being on a mountaintop), every small antenna improvement can yield
> > large, noticeable improvements in working radius.  Here's why "working
> > radius" is important:
> >
> > Say you have a 6m vertical and a 100W station and can usually work other
> > stations within a 50 mile radius.  With 6m activity and population 
> > density
> > as it is, that means you can regularly work 20 stations.  Now, you 
> > improve
> > to a horizontal rotary beam antenna and find you can usually work other
> > stations within a 200 mile radius (not an unusual change).  Now, you've
> > just
> > improved your "coverage area" from 7854 square miles (50 mile radius) to 
> > a
> > whopping 125,664 square miles (200 mile radius).  Assuming population
> > density remains equal, and number of 6m operators per square mile 
> > remains
> > equal, you've just increased how many stations you can regularly hear 
> > and
> > work, from 20 to 320.  Yes, twenty to three-hundred twenty.  So, you've
> > multiplied the number of stations you can routinely contact by a factor 
> > of
> > 16 to 1, simply by adding a small beam.
> >
> > This is *not* an unusual improvement, by any means.  Remember, 90% of 
> > all
> > stations you can contact on six meters *will* be "weak," fairly close to
> > the
> > noise level.  That's the nature of VHF SSB-CW work, and what makes it
> > interesting and exciting in the first place.  It doesn't matter what you
> > run, how big your antenna is, or where you're located, this fact 
> > remains:
> > 90% of your contacts will be "weak."  As you improve your station, your
> > antennas, your location, the QUANTITY of weak stations you can work will
> > increase dramatically, but 90% will still be weak -- there will just be 
> > a
> > lot more of them.
> >
> > And geometry's a powerful thing.  When you increase your working radius,
> > you
> > increase the number of stations you can contact by the square of the
> > radius.
> > A two to one increase in radius yields a four to one increase in the
> > population you can contact.  A three to one increase in radius yields a
> > *nine* to one increase in the population you can contact.  It's simple
> > math,
> > but easy to forget when you're considering antenna changes.
> >
> > I have a 7L 6m horizontal beam on a tower, and also a "Ringo" 6m 
> > vertical
> > (1/2-wavelength, works well for FM-repeaters -- far better than the
> > horizontal beam, actually, since it has compatible polarity) on the roof
> > of
> > my home.  If I tune around on six, on an average Sunday morning, turning
> > the
> > beam around listening for weak stations, I can usually hear 10-20 
> > stations
> > on the band (no openings, no contests!).  If I switch to the vertical,
> > that
> > quantity drops to maybe two or three stations.  Big difference.
> >
> > 73 & good luck!
> >
> > Steve WB2WIK/6
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It's a question of how big a signal you want to have, and that's at 
> > least
> > in
> >
> > part relative to what sort of signals others have.  The larger an 
> > antenna
> > you go to (more accurately, the more effective, the more gain and other
> > factors, but let's say gain as the most obvious one -- and height above
> > ground, how high the antenna will be) the greater your ability to get
> > through when conditions don't quite favor you, when the band isn't quite
> > open, or isn't all the way open, etc., and if you have one of the 
> > smaller
> > stations or signals, you may have to wait for many, many others to get
> > through to a DX station before you get through.  If you just want to 
> > talk
> > to
> >
> > your buddy a few miles away, it doesn't take much.  If you want to work
> > DXCC, get through on the first call to rare stations, etc. you might 
> > want
> > to
> >
> > upgrade a little at a time, etc., which is what most of us have done.
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > SixClub mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/sixclub
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/faq.htm
> > Post: mailto:SixClub at mailman.qth.net
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> SixClub mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/sixclub
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/faq.htm
> Post: mailto:SixClub at mailman.qth.net
> ______________________________________________________________
> SixClub mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/sixclub
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/faq.htm
> Post: mailto:SixClub at mailman.qth.net
> 