[Scan-DC] Military plane crashes in Augusta County, Virginia...more
John Wilson
w4uvv at comcast.net
Thu Aug 28 15:50:11 EDT 2014
Unfortunately you are correct about all you said. Augusta Co. has a
large healthy black bear population as well as eastern diamondback
rattlesnakes. For me a firearm for protection is a must when in that
kind of potential environment. I hate to be negative but it appears
that the pilot, if alive, may be seriously hurt in a location not easily
seen from an aircraft. I have not heard any comms today about spotting
a chute which previously was described as mostly white with some red. I
believe VDEM is planning some type of search event for this evening at
Deerfield. I didn't catch all the comm as I was on the phone.
John
Sean Hoyden wrote:
> One of the problems in "interoperability" isn't the technical
> feasibility as much as it is the leadership and accountability to use
> it. As is the case in many of these situations, it is a gaggle of
> different agencies responding, all with their own procedures and
> predispositions about who they work for.
> I've arrived on scenes where multiple agencies are responding several
> times, only to find out that the scene commander (if there even is
> one) has not held a planning brief with section leaders and chiefs to
> work out a quick comm plan. Worse yet, many state and local agencies
> don't even HAVE an inter-agency comm procedure to know which radio or
> channels they should be monitoring.
> Most scene commanders will tell you, "In an emergency, I don't have
> time to deal with those problems, I have to coordinate a response!"
> Well chief, how exactly do you coordinate a response if all of your
> responders are not working from the same playbook, or the same
> communications channel?
> To make matters worse, your responders often don't know how to use the
> equipment they have. I've worked with VSP, Fairfax County PD, DHS,
> and even FBI guys that don't know anything about their radios beyond
> the O-N-O-F-F Discriminator Switch and the volume knob. They start
> their shift by turning the radio on, and leaving it on, if their MDT
> doesn't tell them where to go and when, they'd probably sit in the
> parking lot at the precinct for their entire shift. I'm not
> generalizing ALL law enforcement people here, not by a long shot, but
> one has to be careful how easily they assign technical competency to
> everyone just because they made it through their respective service
> academy and put a uniform on.
> I helped with an exercise 2 years ago which dealt with a simulated
> terrorist attack, I won't name names or agencies, but one officer I
> spoke with during the exercise openly admitted that he had no idea how
> to do anything with his radio that would set up the talk groups for
> all the other agencies. His rationale? "I'll never have to use it
> anyways."
> That all being said, I'd be surprised if the pilot was armed at all.
> Hell, even aircrews over in the Persian Gulf have been known to fly
> without their sidearms. I just talked to a guy yesterday who used to
> fly A-10's, and he said that he regularly flew into Iraq and
> Afghanistan without his pistol. He figured that if he was going to go
> down in his flying tank, he was going to be dead before he hit the
> ground or he was going to fly the plane into the bad guys. So on a
> ferry mission stateside, I'd be surprised if the pilot didn't see
> having a pistol with him as just another piece of crap to share the
> cockpit with.
> Sean
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 2:30 PM, John Wilson <w4uvv at comcast.net
> <mailto:w4uvv at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Once again I guess I am the skunk at the picnic but here are my
> comments about yesterday's comms I heard and more importantly
> those that never happened. I am retired where everyday is a
> holiday. I have 6 tower mounted mast mounted preamped Scantennas
> at about 115 ft. I hear a lot. I have a PSR 600, 3 996XTs, 1
> 396XT and several R7000s for analog reception. My STARS reception
> is Div 1, 3, and 5 unless I use my DMR computer/radio system.
> Then I can receive a few voice repeaters from Div 2.. Because the
> same STARS CC was assigned by the radio techs for both the Waverly
> and Fork Mtn., STARS sites my reception from Fork Mtn. are the
> voice repeaters programed for conventional reception. I also can
> hear a couple of the Bear Den Mtn. voice repeaters. The PSR600
> and one 996XT are dedicated solely for STARS scanning reception,
> one 996XT for local and area scanning and one 996XT dedicated to
> scanning only federal the vhf/uhf ranges.
>
> As usual my comments and opinions are subject to error and
> correction. About 1000 yesterday I started hearing some Richmond
> VSP short cryptic type voice comms which VSP uses when they don't
> want to say anything more about a situation than necessary. I
> concluded it was a possible airplane crash. Soon thereafter I
> heard "Legend 7 " wheels up from Mountain Empire AP which is a
> relatively short runway airport at Marion which is close to I81.
> DMA comms always get my attention as the users I previously have
> heard are selected Army Reserve/National Guard and of late the Va.
> Defense Force units. At first I thought it was a drill as there
> was not the sense of emergency heard like when a trooper is
> pursuing a suspect who bails and runs. I concluded it was not a
> drill. As best I could determine control was established at the
> Chesterfield Co. AP. Control was "DMA Control" and occasionally
> "Chesterfield Ops" was also heard on DMA talkgroup 4529 talking to
> unknown DMA military person on scene at Deerfield, VA.
>
> In my opinion DMA had little if any interoperability comms with
> VSP or any other STARS user. If it happened I never heard them
> which is possible depending on site affiliations originally
> programed by the STARS radio techs.. STARS VSP comms were VSP
> comms only and DMA comms were DMA comms only..
>
> Excuse me, but for STARS VSP Div 3 talkgroup 6138 "INOP PS3" "VSP
> MUTUAL AID PUBLIC SERVICE" could have been used IF the Dept. of
> Military Affairs radios had been programmed for such affiliation.
> Each STARS radio costs about $6,000 each. There are 16 channels
> per zone operation. Up to 32 zones user switch selectable are
> available. Zone 21 selection allows comms on VCALL on ch. 1 and
> VTACS 11-14 on channels 2-5. Rarely are interoperability comms
> attempted on STARS. Each STARS user is a "world to themselves". I
> occasionally hear testing on a few interoperability talkgroups,
> but I heard nothing yesterday on any of the STARS interoperability
> talkgroups. VSP for sure has the capability. Once again these
> great expensive comm systems work fine on paper but maybe not
> always so great in reality.
>
> To be fair I was surprised at the relatively dependable STARS
> comms from the aircraft. Many STARS sites are the old analog VSP
> sites many of which are on mountaintops such as the one on Bear
> Den Mtn. in Augusta Co., which was probably the one used most
> frequently. STARS radios, like cellphones, constantly search for
> the strongest site received signal.
>
> So all search aircraft could talk to each other using their vhf
> aviation radios on 123.0250 mhz. and the DMA a/c additionally on
> STARS only to other DMA aircraft and DMA Command. In eastern
> Virginia all Medflight type radios are PRE_PROGRAMED for certain
> frequencies and not frequency changeable "on the fly". That's why
> my county has to have an EMS ambulance on site to talk to
> Medflight on "statewide" as the fire engines cannot communication
> on 155.2050 mhz. "statewide". That's also why when on scene
> Medflights request the ground POC to switch to 155.2050 mhz.
> "statewide" which every VFD and EMS licensed entity is required to
> have.
>
> STARS users include but are not limited to VSP, DMA,F&G, FORESTRY,
> VDEM, DC&R and DEQ. These would be appropriate users for
> interoperability comms yesterday but I didn't hear a peep from any
> except VSP and DMA and maybe a F&G officer signing in/off duty..
> S&R units in Virginia I have heard use 155.2050 mhz. base/mobile
> simplex or sometimes portables only.
>
> In that mountainous terrain a mountaintop repeater such as the
> Forestry Service uses for forest fire comms are required. We ham
> operators know the joy and thrill of vhf/uhf mountaintop simplex
> and/or repeater comms and also know what happens when we drop down
> on the side to the bottom of a mountain. Checking my Virginia
> frequency database I see numerous VFD's and EMS and law
> enforcement but no county EOC. Looks like Augusta Co. needs one.
> If any circumstance required interoperability comms it was
> yesterday. Looks like a few organizational "Lessons Learned"
> meetings will occur after the happenings yesterday.
>
> The VSP mobile comm vehicle mentioned sounds like one of the
> VSP's divisions' mobile 800 mhz. frequency cell type repeater.
> They typically are used at car races and the state fair for on
> site comms and not using the STARS system.. A mobile unit is
> assigned to each VSP division.
>
> The "limited' cellphone reception posted was a direct quote from
> the DMA a/c helicopter on scene at Deerfield early yesterday morning.
>
> Searching continues today. One or more aircraft continue
> searching while other aircraft fly Shenandoah airport for
> refueling. From what little I heard from different sources was
> the pilot was flying to New Orleans to have his a/c radar
> updated. He was flying at 43,000 ft. and supposedly ejected at
> 1,800 ft. Ejection basically involves sitting on top of an
> artillery shell going from zero to over 200 miles an hour in a few
> seconds. The plane appeared to impact almost vertically and
> depending at what altitude he ejected he could be a significant
> distance from the crash site. He may have a few flares, survival
> pistol, mirror, and I thought a portable on 243 mhz. I don't know
> whether the military has converted to the 400 mhz. frequency or
> not. If he was injured and is below the tree line it will be very
> difficult to find him from the air.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce Harper wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 12:56 PM, John Wilson wrote:
>
> Limited cellphone and STARS coverage in the mountainous
> search area.
>
> "Limited" doesn't begin to describe it -- "nonexistent" is a
> better
> description. The Va. Department of Emergency Management (VDEM)
> put out
> the call for search and rescue groups to send personnel to
> conduct the
> ground search, which resulted in members from multiple groups
> arriving
> at the Deerfield Volunteer Fire Department. There were about
> 10 of us
> from the Southwest Virginia Mountain Rescue Group (SWVaMRG). I
> arrived
> on the scene about 6 p.m. and we finally headed out on a task
> around
> 8:30 p.m. There were seven helicopters there conducting air
> searches
> -- 1 VSP, 1 U.S. Customs, 1 unmarked (but folks who ran the tail
> number got a return to U.S. Governement -- comments were that
> it was
> either the FBI HRT or Homeland Security), plus a variety of
> military
> copters. Since I'm near the bottom of the chain, there isn't
> much more
> that I know. The search was a joint operation being run by the
> military (don't know if VA National Guard, U.S., or who), the
> Virginia
> State Police, and VDEM (since that is where the SAR expertise
> is). Our
> comms were handled by a trooper on our search team, who was
> working on
> Appomatox channels. The state radio cache was brought in (from
> Harrisonburg, I heard someone say) but I don't know if those were
> being distributed. There was one mast antenna erected, but I don't
> know if it was for ground comms or air comms. Between the
> troopers and
> SAR personnel, there were at least 100 people involved (mainly
> waiting
> around until search areas were narrowed down), along with a
> couple of
> FBI agents (called in from Charlottesville mainly to provide
> manpower), various military types, plus support personnel from the
> various agencies and the local volunteer fire and rescue
> folks. There
> were also equine searchers in the mix. Corrine Geller from VSP
> was the
> PIO for the operation. There were some young people from the
> Civil Air
> Patrol there when I bailed around midnight. Search operations were
> suspended at midnight and were starting up again at 8 this morning
> (but after hitting the bed at 3:30, I wasn't about to get up a
> 5:30
> for a 6 a.m. departure).
>
> Bruce in Blacksburg
>
> Bruce Harper
> Search Team Member
> Southwest Virginia Mountain Rescue Group
> http://swvamrg.blacksburgrescue.org/
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> --
>
>
>
>
> Sean Hoyden
> 703.899.8893
>
> "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
> -- Want to see my nighttime railroad photography? Just check out My
> FLICKR page <https://www.flickr.com/photos/23954134@N06/>, while my
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