[R-390] Compressor stall (nee Cosmos Dis-assembly)
Francesco Ledda
frledda at verizon.net
Sun Apr 18 12:34:40 EDT 2010
I have been in the US since 1983, and I can affirm, without much fear of
being proven wrong, that the US ATC system is the best in the world. The
system is solid, and the controllers go out of their way to help pilots fly
around; they provide services well above minimum standards.
I have a lot of respect for all these guys, and they often put up with below
standards pilots.
Regards,
Francesco Ledda (Pilot and EE Engineer)
-----Original Message-----
From: r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
On Behalf Of Jim Temple
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:15 AM
To: 'R390 reflector'
Subject: Re: [R-390] Compressor stall (nee Cosmos Dis-assembly)
Don, this is the last I will offer and I'm through, I promise.
Actually, I was enjoying the compressor stall thread until the ATC attacks
began. Barry, it is clear you have no constructive or factual experiences to
offer. You do not have any personal experiences, courage, or knowledge to
offer, except for the old talking points that the small group you associate
with throw around with little knowledge or thought. You divert and try to
make the subject change because you have nothing to offer, except talking
points.
For your information, I and 12,500 other controllers, most of who were
military controllers, (you should be careful who you call lazy or worse),
were trying to work an air traffic system that was expanding at
unprecedented rates, and staffing and equipment was old and outdated. The
talking points, of the day, were that the controllers were greedy and wanted
to take over the county, or something. Whatever would stick with gullible
individuals like Barry, who like to burn down progress rather than build.
That was the strike strategy of the FAA, and it worked.
The worldwide standard was 32-34 hours per week for air traffic controllers,
even in Canada, except for the US. This was 1981. The world recognized that
controllers were working too many hours and had too much traffic to handle
during the "rushes" that were allowed to happen during that period. There
had been too many accidents to satisfy most of the industrial world. The
world recognized this and cut the hours of duty for safety sake. Barry and
his ilk would, probably, consider this "weak" or disloyal. Bad equipment and
unrestrained "rushes" were the norm and the FAA had no intention of
addressing that. Regan wrote a letter to PATCO explaining that he understood
this, but that turned out to be a political dirty trick.
Concerning work hours. 40 hours a week, along with forced overtime. Few
breaks, because staffing was short. Add in "rushes", bad equipment, and the
mix would get dangerous. The response of the FAA was to belittle their
employees because, apparently, the issue was power, and not safety.
Money. Yep, there was a $10,000 yearly demand. The talking points of the MSM
was that greed was the culprit. It didn't get out that that was a bargaining
strategy that all unions use, and it hurt us. I agree that nobody cared that
the controllers were willing to trade the money demand for safety and
staffing considerations. Did the FAA want a union? Yes they did. They
encouraged a union. In my opinion, because they would have a central point
to deal with, rather than several hot spots to deal with. The FAA's attitude
was they wanted us to have a union, but they didn't want us to act like a
union. This is the Federal Aviation Administration.
How did a large reduction in the workforce handle the air traffic? By using
about 7,000 non striking controllers and supervisors. Barry's talking point
would, probably, be the "cream of the crop" was present in the supervisors.
How many of you think your supervisors are the cream of the crop? If you are
honest, most supervisors are incompetent yes men who are put there to do a
companies bidding. Another, several thousand military controllers were added
to the workforce, in violation of the Possie Commitatus act. Air traffic was
severely restricted, flow control was put in place, and procedures were
implemented that were extremely inflexible. In other words, no more
"rushes". So, through the blood, sweat, and tears of 12,500 fired
controllers, the system learned about flow control, and standardized
procedures.
Barry is a very, very gullible and out of touch person when he said "Poof,
no more staffing issues, work schedule problems, or
issues." Barry reveals his lack of knowledge of the ATC system if he thinks
all the problems went away with PATCO. Barry is not the person who he
claims, if he believes this. Barry would rather agitate, pass on talking
points, and dream rather than be realistic. I would not fly with such a
person. Why did the controllers vote for another union if there were no more
"issues", Barry? One thing the present controllers learned was the PATCO
strike was about power and sending messages to other federal unions like the
Post Office, and the Russians, because the Russians were treating Reagan
with disrespect.
Barry said, "They went on strike to bring this country to a standstill."
What an uninformed and idiotic statement. Typical of a person who has no
facts, and all bluster.
Barry said, "It became a fad for controllers to give the minimum assistance
on first calls. You had to ask for them to do their jobs. Controllers were
lazy." Another opine and no professional experience to offer except a
talking point.
Barry said, "I think you are the one who is hiding behind something with all
this PATCO defense." OK, Barry, facts, evidence!! What am I hiding behind?
Have you noticed that you bluster, and opine without offering anything but
bluster? Poor Barry, all opinion and talking points, and no substance.
Barry, I'm finished trying to convince you to offer something, anything,
personal to back up any of your inflammatory remarks. You, obviously, are
not interested in anything other than throwing fire balls. I will not be
replying to anything further from you, because it is pointless.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
On Behalf Of Barry Williams
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 9:46 AM
Cc: 'R390 reflector'
Subject: Re: [R-390] Compressor stall (nee Cosmos Dis-assembly)
Defending union strikers must be tough and frustrating.
> /Barry, again, you do not know what you are talking about. If you did, you
> would cite facts, examples, and share your background knowledge to back up
> your original, provoking, language, if you are REALLY who you say you are.
> I'll help with a few observations./
>
> /Why did 12,500 controllers, out of a workforce of 17,500, end up letting
their jobs go? Did the Feds want the controllers to have a union? What were
the issues concerning improving the ATC system? What were the safety issues
that were present? What were the money concerns of the controllers? What
were the workweek hours issues? What were the staffing issues?/
>
Nobody cares where their jobs went, how much they were paid, silly
staffing issues, or precious work schedules. This is just more evidence
of the attitudes that are running this country into the dirt. They
thought of themselves as being above the rules and too important to
fire. Guess what- they were wrong. They went on strike to bring this
country to a standstill. President Reagan did the manly thing and fired
all of them. Poof, no more staffing issues, work schedule problems, or
issues.
> /Barry, your approach is to burn down what you disagree with and label
those
> who you disagree with provoking, thoughtless language. It is not helpful
and
> is certainly divisive.
>
> According to you, the issues were a controller work force that were "bad",
> clueless, unhelpful, unfriendly, and not "fun" to talk to. Do you really
> stand on your original language?/
>
Okay. How about a universal attitude of arrogance? It became a fad for
controllers to give the minimum assistance on first calls. You had to
ask for them to do their jobs. Controllers were lazy. I never met a
single pilot who missed the fired controllers. On the other hand, we
were all happy with those who remained and the replacements who treated
their duties as a job, and not an entitlement. Even the remaining
controllers would tell you how glad they were the old farts were gone.
Over the radio! Deal with it. Nobody missed them. The aviation world
improved.
> /C'mon Barry, man up, and instead of being a provocateur, let's see you
> address some of the very serious issues that surrounded a very significant
> period in aviation history. Or are you an empty blowhard who provokes,
then
> wilts away with no courage to speak of.
>
> The ball is in your court. He, he.
>
> Jim/
>
> -
>
I think you are the one who is hiding behind something with all this
PATCO defense. Or, are you one of those who blindly go ballistic over
any anti-union comments? Just live with it and let's get moving to
something else.
the other Barry
> Jim,
>
> Thank you for your enlightened viewpoint. Sorry, but you are just wrong
> across the board. Heh heh, I think we got us a former PATCO member.
>
> I thought about the lazy union crybabies like that because I was a pilot
> back then. It was a firsthand sort of thing. I was brought up around
> that stuff, so I have a background.
>
> Yes, it is amazing there are so many of us still around, isn't it? Get
> over it. I just briefly mentioned a few things like they really happened
> and this history, wars, and politics stuff gets drug out.
>
> Hit piece? Okay. Whatever.
>
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> p.s. I'll get off topic any time I wish. You'll learn how it works one
> day, grasshopper.
>
>
>
>> Barry, jack of all trades. You seem like an emotional sort of guy. You
>>
> think
>
>> and judge, clearly, from emotion and not from facts. You expressed no
>>
> facts.
>
>> You have no idea what the issues were surrounding the PATCO labor
dispute,
>> and what was at stake during that time in history. It sounds like you
just
>> think it was, simply, a them against us thing, and they got theirs.
>>
> Amazing
>
>> how people like Barry are still fighting political wars from decades ago.
>>
>> Now that Barry got his political hit piece in, and I responded, we need
to
>> get back to R-390's.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> -
>> I've not heard of a turbine that doesn't have an engine restart
>> procedure. Even the lowly helicopters I flew had them. It may take
>> several thousand feet to get it restarted, but they are meant to
>> restart. Having some sort of failure or damage changes things somewhat.
>> We practiced those over and over in the simulators.
>>
>> I had small compressor stalls only once. I was flying nights with
>> goggles with students in Alabama. We were flying around 400' over the
>> trees. I was a brand new night instructor and still a little nervous. I
>> went for the first field I saw when I realized it was stalling over and
>> over. As soon as I got close to the ground and saw the big transmission
>> lines, I did exactly what you aren't supposed to do. I pulled in full
>> power to get out of there before hitting the wires. That turbine ran
>> like a champ until I set down about a mile away.
>>
>> The plane over the Hudson didn't have near the altitude needed for a
>> restart attempt.
>>
>> Declining ATC suggestions? I've turned down directions more than a few
>> times. Sometimes, they are just lollygagging around the air conditioned
>> tower, and are clueless. The best thing that ever happened was when
>> Reagan fired the striking controllers in PATCO. The radio traffic
>> instantly became friendlier and more helpful. The bad ones were gone and
>> it was fun to talk to ATC once more.
>>
>> It also depends on what controller level you talk to. Centers like
>> Atlanta are the best and rarely mess up. You know you are in good hands
>> with those guys.
>>
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Beat me to it...
>>>
>>> A simple stall is one thing a FOD'd engine is another story. But a
>>>
>>>
>> restart
>>
>>
>>> might get you enough power to get you back to the field...it you don't
>>>
>>>
>> have
>>
>>
>>> an engine fire in the process....
>>>
>>> Cecil...
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy,
>>>
>>> They "can" be restarted in flight. The difficulty is that you CANNOT
>>> tell if it was a "simple" compressor stall OR did you just ingest as
>>>
> bird.
>
>>> After the "Miracle on the Hudson", mental priorities and possibilities
>>> have changed. The awareness is different.
>>>
>>> It is up to the Pilot in Command, PIC, what flows and what goes.
>>>
>>> He can tell ATC, a ground controller, and approach control to "stick it"
>>> IF he feels safety isn't being adequately addressed, or other issues.
>>>
>>> I ran into this my self twice when I flew as PIC. Once I simply told
>>> the Tower to wait - My hands were full due to clear air turbulence that
>>> drifted over MY runway from a flight that took off over 5 mins earlier.
>>> The "heavy" had left its wake, and the crosswinds had blown it over to
>>> my runway. The Tower had NO way of knowing what I was fighting. Then
>>> again, they weren't paying attention to the position of the ailerons and
>>> rudder.
>>>
>>> The second one was when they told me to turn downwind into traffic they
>>> had cleared another aircraft inbound.
>>>
>>> It just happens!
>>>
>>> Bob - N0DGN
>>>
>>> On 4/16/2010 4:05 PM, James A. (Andy) Moorer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> It happened to me and my son a few years ago. It sure got our
attention.
>>>>
>
>
>>>> It
>>>> is a sight you really don't ever want to see. Since it was during the
>>>> full-power ascent shortly after takeoff, the pilot just turned around
>>>>
> and
>
>>>> took it back in.
>>>>
>>>> Does anybody know if the engine can be restarted after a stall? It
seems
>>>> like it would be pretty messed up at that point.
>>>>
>>>> If the pilot was an engine short for the landing, I sure didn't notice
>>>>
>>>>
>> it.
>>
>>
>>>> Modern airplanes must be pretty remarkable machines.
>>>>
>>>> James A. (Andy) Moorer
>>>> www.jamminpower.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Compressor stalls happen in real life, too. I've never been on an
>>>>> aircraft
>>>>> when one took place, but I know some folks who have, and they say they
>>>>> were
>>>>> *AWAKE* for the rest of the flight.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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