[R-390] R-390a Image problem?
Tony Casorso
canthony15 at msn.com
Sun Oct 21 14:11:20 EDT 2007
Hi all,
I looked at it with the spectrum analyzer this morning and I did not see any
oscillation. What I did see is that I have over 100Mv of signal from the
KNUS broadcast station at the balanced antenna terminals. It is reduced to
about a quarter of that by the antenna circuits (tuned to 3.3Mhz) so 20+
millivolts is going into the RF amplifier. There is no visible signal at the
second harmonic (3.3 Mhz) going into the RF stage. At the grid of the first
mixer with the receiver tuned to 3.3Mhz, the broadcast band signals
including the huge KNUS signal are gone (below the floor of my spectrum
analyzer) but there is about a 1 millivolt signal at 3.3Mhz. It would appear
that some kind of non-linearity in the RF stage is creating a strong second
harmonic in the RF stage.
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: "DW Holtman" <tubestuff at comcast.net>
To: "Bob Camp" <ham at cq.nu>; "Tony Casorso" <canthony15 at msn.com>
Cc: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [R-390] R-390a Image problem?
> Hello,
>
> I also have a 50KW broadcast station in my area. It causes problems on
> both of my R-390A's, 51S-1 and R-392. The cross over distortion is mostly
> heard in the broadcast bands. I built a highpass filter with about a 3MHZ
> roll off. Put it in series with the antenna lead, going into the
> multicoupler and it works great. Ended the problem, can still receive
> broadcast bands with the filter inline because they are so strong.
>
> Best,
> DW Holtman
> WB7SSN
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Camp" <ham at cq.nu>
> To: "Tony Casorso" <canthony15 at msn.com>
> Cc: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 4:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [R-390] R-390a Image problem?
>
>
>> Hi
>>
>> By any chance are we chasing a ghost here?
>>
>> I used to have a 50KW AM station a stones throw away from my back yard.
>> My long wire could get a reading on a Bird Termline with a good matchbox
>> in between. It was always amazing to me just how different radios would
>> and would not pick up which harmonics of that station.
>>
>> See if you can get a signal generator you trust. Check the radio and see
>> what it's really doing. If the front end of the radio is running ok, and
>> it's properly aligned, there may not be anything wrong with the radio.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On Oct 20, 2007, at 1:13 PM, Tony Casorso wrote:
>>
>>> I just finished checking the injection level at the first mixer. It
>>> seems more than adequate at 1 volt rms but I don't really know what is
>>> supposed to be. First mixer cathode is at about 8.5 volts (manual says
>>> 9.7).
>>>
>>> I have a spectrum analyzer over in the corner. I might be able to use
>>> it to look for oscillations in the RF stage. Maybe I'll have time later
>>> today.
>>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Schlegel"
>>> <ews265 at rochester.rr.com>
>>> To: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:55 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [R-390] R-390a Image problem?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Tony,
>>>>
>>>> Some further thoughts. Again, I'm not really familiar with the 390
>>>> yet so these are just some general ideas.
>>>>
>>>> Could the screen or suppressor/cathode of the RF amp be lifting off of
>>>> RF ground (bad C229, C227?). This could cause some instability.
>>>> Another possibility along these lines is a problem with the parasitic
>>>> suppressor, E212, or something downstream from it. E212's presence in
>>>> the design is tip off that the stage could be *hot*. If the stage is
>>>> oscillating at some frequency that's not immediately obvious (VHF
>>>> range?), a non-linearity could be created that might generate the 2nd
>>>> harmonic of 1650 kHz that you are seeing. You could try to *sniff*
>>>> the existence of an oscillation using other receiver(s) you may have
>>>> on hand. Use a short wire probe as the search receiver's antenna, put
>>>> it next to the RF tube and start searching for any signs of life.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Jon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 09:42 PM 10/19/2007 -0600, you wrote:
>>>>> Checking the injection levels is a good idea. I'll try that tomorrow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tony
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Bob Camp <ham at cq.nu>
>>>>>> To: Tony Casorso <canthony15 at msn.com>
>>>>>> CC: <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [R-390] R-390a Image problem?
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:06:32 -0400
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stage voltages are a good idea if you have a VTVM. With an RF probe
>>>>>> you can also check the injection levels at the mixers. Low drive to
>>>>>> a mixer can cause all sorts of odd things. Your 17 MHz crystal
>>>>>> oscillator may be a bit "sick" for instance ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another stupid thing to check - did somebody put a couple of diodes
>>>>>> up in the antenna relay to "overload protect" the radio?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 19, 2007, at 10:48 PM, Tony Casorso wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I see what you mean about AGC. I checked it anyway. -11 volts on a
>>>>>>> strong local station. I swapped tubes with no improvement. I wonder
>>>>>>> if the stage bias could be wrong? I guess I should measure the
>>>>>>> voltages just to be sure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I said 1st RF stage, I guess I forgot this was an R-390a. Part
>>>>>>> of the cost reduction removed one of the RF stages didn't it? There
>>>>>>> is only one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The antenna is a 100 foot longwire.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tony
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Camp" <ham at cq.nu>
>>>>>>> To: "Tony Casorso" <canthony15 at msn.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 8:36 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [R-390] R-390a Image problem?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd swap it for another tube just in case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With no input to the radio, there should be pretty much no AGC to
>>>>>>>> the front end. It may be the problem, but only indirectly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the radio is fine with no front end tube, you probably have
>>>>>>>> one very large antenna.....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 19, 2007, at 10:17 PM, Tony Casorso wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Aha! The 1st RF tube is correct (6DC6) but when I remove the
>>>>>>>>> tube and put a small cap from pin1 to pin 5 (grid to plate), the
>>>>>>>>> receiver works fine and NO image. I'm going to check the AGC to
>>>>>>>>> that stage.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tony
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Camp" <ham at cq.nu>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Tony Casorso" <canthony15 at msn.com>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:13 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [R-390] R-390a Image problem?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd check the grounds as Jon suggested. The R390 can pick up
>>>>>>>>>> "stuff" from the power line pretty easily. The AC line filter
>>>>>>>>>> works both ways with a loose ground ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Next up would be to start swapping front end tubes. You may
>>>>>>>>>> find that you simply have a defective tube. You may also find
>>>>>>>>>> that somebody "improved" the design by putting in a tube that
>>>>>>>>>> didn't belong there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 19, 2007, at 8:58 PM, Tony Casorso wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Bob, I'm using the balanced input. I bought a twinax to BNC
>>>>>>>>>>> adapter so one side of the balanced input is grounded.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Same antenna doesn't bother the R-392.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tony
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Camp" <ham at cq.nu>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Tony Casorso" <canthony15 at msn.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 6:52 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [R-390] R-390a Image problem?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which antenna input are you running into? The situation you
>>>>>>>>>>>> describe would be pretty typical if you run a long antenna
>>>>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>>>> the "unbalanced" input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 19, 2007, at 8:31 PM, Tony Casorso wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone. This is my first post to the list although I've
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been following it for a long time now. A few months back I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bought a 67 EAC R-390a. The only problem I had was an open
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Z-503 AGC coil. I replaced that and did an alignment and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the radio seemed to be working real well. Sensitivity was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> very good on all bands.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recently I've noticed broadcast stations coming through in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3Mhz band. A local station on 1650KHz is about 40db at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3300KHz on the R-390a. I don't hear it on my R-392. Even
>>>>>>>>>>>>> moving the 2-4MHz RF slug rack by hand, I still hear the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> station (although it does get a bit quieter). There are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> several other stations coming through as well on other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> frequencies. I didn't notice anything odd when I aligned it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything seemed to peak like it should.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looking around at other frequencies with my signal generator,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I started noticing all kinds of harmonic responses, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is probably (at least to some degree) just my signal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> generator (a Boonton 102C). I'm pretty sure something is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong here but I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scratching my head trying to think of a good explanation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the BC station harmonic was that bad, I'd hear it in my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other radios I would think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ideas anyone? How do I track this one down?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________ _
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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