[Milsurplus] Milsurplus Digest, Vol 223, Issue 8
Glenn Little WB4UIV
glennmaillist at bellsouth.net
Thu Nov 3 15:41:43 EDT 2022
Probably KY-8 was used to encrypt the required audio channels prior to
multiplexing, giving clear and encrypted channels.
KY-8 was definitely a single channel encryption system.
Glenn
On 11/3/2022 1:17 PM, Jack Sullivan via Milsurplus wrote:
> When I lived in OH years ago I monitored USAF 'command planes.' KY-8
> was mentioned often. It was not a code system but instead it was
> multiplexing audio conversations, only some of which sounded to be
> encrypted. I used a surplus VLF tuner to capture the different audio
> lines.
>
> Jack
>
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 06:42:25 PM EDT,
> milsurplus-request at mailman.qth.net
> <milsurplus-request at mailman.qth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Send Milsurplus mailing list submissions to
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>
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>
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> than "Re: Contents of Milsurplus digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: NESTOR: AN/PRC-77 with TSEC/KY-38 *CORRECTED PHOTO*
> (George Sliney)
> 2. Helicopter comm intercept. (lbfulton at windstream.net)
> 3. Re: NESTOR: AN/PRC-77 with TSEC/KY-38 *CORRECTED PHOTO*
> (Mike Morrow)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 10:41:59 -0700
> From: George Sliney <gjsliney48 at gmail.com>
> To: kk5f at arrl.net
> Cc: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>, Rob Flory
> <farmer.rob.flory at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] NESTOR: AN/PRC-77 with TSEC/KY-38 *CORRECTED
> PHOTO*
> Message-ID:
> <CAKq9ESaA_7QZNcPddpgwqvs99oDvkYPYgUDR_sfMCO8pJn5jJQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Wow! That Ky-28 unit looks as large and heavy as the KY-8 units I had
> aboard my ship. What contributed to the size and I assume the weight of
> the KY-28? I sure did not want to try and lug around a KY-8.
> Luckily, all
> my issues with my KY-8's were from the key insertion device. The RM's had
> a lot of difficulty in setting up the slides and inserting the device into
> the KY-8. I normally would be in the crypto room "assisting" with the
> setups.
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM Mike Morrow <kk5f at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > CORRECTED MIRROR IMAGE PHOTO
> >
> >
> >
> > Attached is a photo of the Vietnam-era man-pack AN/PRC-77 (top) with
> > TSEC/KY-38 NESTOR voice encryption unit (bottom). Plus soldier and M14
> > rifle. :-)
> >
> >
> >
> > State of the Art in 1968. Dainty ain't it?
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike / KK5F
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Milsurplus mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/milsurplus
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 18:36:24 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "lbfulton at windstream.net" <lbfulton at windstream.net>
> To: milsurplus at mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Milsurplus] Helicopter comm intercept.
> Message-ID:
> <2114382148.146270232.1667428584208.JavaMail.zimbra at windstream.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> The USN and USMC did not often use NESTOR in SEA, although the UHF-AM
> AN/PRC-41A was a modification of the -41 for NESTOR, and the KY-8 was
> on many USN ships including submarines for UHF-AM service. It was not
> installed with PBR and PCF AN/VRC-46 sets, and I have never read of
> USMC use of NESTOR in Vietnam. (The USMC was mostly out of Vietnam by
> 1971 except for embassy security.)
>
> I've got a little problem with what has been written here. At Marble
> Mountain Air Facility, east of Da Nang, every CH-46 squadron had KY-28
> voice encryption units on their aircraft. I have no reason to make
> this up. I worked on/maintained these encryption units. I left Vietnam
> with 12 combat aircrew medals from 5 months as a helicopter machine
> gunner in May, '71. Garrett Fulton, service number 2405379. The combat
> history will make it easier to look up the facts and see that I'm
> telling the truth. Didn't do any embassy security duty.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: milsurplus-request at mailman.qth.net
> To: milsurplus at mailman.qth.net
> Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 12:04:51 PM
> Subject: Milsurplus Digest, Vol 223, Issue 5
>
> Send Milsurplus mailing list submissions to
> milsurplus at mailman.qth.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/milsurplus
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> milsurplus-request at mailman.qth.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> milsurplus-owner at mailman.qth.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Milsurplus digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: TBY on the air (Nick England)
> 2. Re: TBY on the air (Gene Smar)
> 3. CV-2460/SGC (Daniel Jones)
> 4. Re: Helicopter Comms Intercept as referenced in "The Greatest
> Beer Run Ever" (Mike Morrow)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2022 18:19:18 -0400
> From: Nick England <navy.radio at gmail.com>
> To: Hubert Miller <Kargo_cult at msn.com>
> Cc: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] TBY on the air
> Message-ID:
> <CAB55hNdfGzj_zf_bwtN4FyRmnuzc-kLfnb4ApD8MycSXvXJT3A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The Marines didn?t like them, but some folks did??.
>
> Convoy UC-21 May 1944
> Liverpool to New York
>
> *The Commodore says*
> that the voyage was routine, "except greater plane coverage than ever
> experienced before. On the whole the cooperation of the Masters, the
> excellent TBY operation and communications, as well as the unusual
> experience of having three ships in the convoy with radar, made it the
> best
> convoy of which I have been Commodore".
>
>
> --
> Nick England K4NYW
> www.navy-radio.com
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 01:08:03 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Gene Smar <ersmar at verizon.net>
> To: navy.radio at gmail.com, Hubert Miller <Kargo_cult at msn.com>
> Cc: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] TBY on the air
> Message-ID: <771408573.2391409.1667351283599 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Nalww2museum.org has an article declaring there were other indigenous
> peoples serving as code talkers. Some mentioned are Choktaw and
> Comanche. The Cherokee nation also provided talkers during WW1.
>
> 73 deGene Smar AD3F?
>
> Sent from my Radio Shack TRS-80 model 100 laptop
>
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2022 at 6:19 PM, Nick England<navy.radio at gmail.com>
> wrote: ______________________________________________________________
> Milsurplus mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/milsurplus
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Milsurplus at mailman.qth.net
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2022 17:10:07 -0700
> From: Daniel Jones <djones at k6yic.com>
> To: mrcg-west at groups.io, mrca at mailman.qth.net, List Milsurplus
> <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>, Greenkeys <greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: [Milsurplus] CV-2460/SGC
> Message-ID: <5E18228B-2FCE-4F16-AD7B-DEDF092F6377 at k6yic.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Good evening my fellow Military collectors. I am looking for a
> teletype converter CV-2460. If you have one available please let me
> know. It would be shipping to 92880.
>
> Daniel Jones
> K6YIC
>
> www.K6YIC.com
> DJones at K6YIC.com
> HH#11973
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2022 16:04:43 +0000
> From: Mike Morrow <kk5f at earthlink.net>
> To: Rob Flory <farmer.rob.flory at gmail.com>, milsurplus
> <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] Helicopter Comms Intercept as referenced in
> "The Greatest Beer Run Ever"
> Message-ID: <bdc26531-bd42-0629-4f6f-4d456327d642 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The NESTOR voice encryption system was developed by the mid-1960s for
> use with Tactical FM and (much less commonly) military UHF-AM radio sets.
>
> NESTOR crypto units were:
>
> TSEC/KY-8 Ground fixed and mobile
> TSEC/KY-28 Aircraft
> TSEC/KY-38 Portable man-pack
>
> The Army's most commonly used man-pack set up to 1968 was the
> AN/PRC-25, but it was not compatible with NESTOR. The most important
> change made to its successor, the AN/PRC-77, was its redesign for
> NESTOR. The elimination of AN/PRC-25's one vacuum tube was of only
> incidental importance.
>
> NESTOR-encrypted communication between all major Army units was thus
> NOT possible until the AN/PRC-77 showed up in 1968, along with the
> TSEC/KY-38 portable NESTOR unit.
>
> The TSEC/KY-38 was almost the same size, shape, and weight as the
> AN/PRC-77. The two units connected together with a couple of awkward
> external cables very subject to entanglement in vegetation. Pity the
> poor RTO who carried it all plus his own packband weapon. The KY-38
> thus was extremely unpopular with its users.
>
> After 1968 TSEC/KY-28 was installed on most Army combat aircraft. A
> Command and Control UH-1 would have a KY-28 for its AN/ARC-54 or -131
> Tac FM radio, plus a temporary console in the back with three
> AN/ARC-54 sets and TSEC/KY-28s.
>
> Ground units had TSEC/KY-8 for some AN/VRC-12-series installations.
>
> Among all users, NESTOR was unpopular due to voice transmission delay
> after PTT and distortion. Great care had to be taken with the
> initialization process on all units prior to an operation.
>
> The USN and USMC did not often use NESTOR in SEA, although the UHF-AM
> AN/PRC-41A was a modification of the -41 for NESTOR, and the KY-8 was
> on many USN ships including submarines for UHF-AM service. It was not
> installed with PBR and PCF AN/VRC-46 sets, and I have never read of
> USMC use of NESTOR in Vietnam. (The USMC was mostly out of Vietnam by
> 1971 except for embassy security.)
>
> NESTOR was replaced by VINSON (TSEC/KY-57) more than 40 years ago. I
> don't have any idea what is used now.
>
> Mike / KK5F
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Flory <farmer.rob.flory at gmail.com>
> Sent: Nov 1, 2022 2:52 AM
> To: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: [Milsurplus] Helicopter Comms Intercept as referenced in "The
> Greatest Beer Run Ever"
>
> I recently read this book, quite a story, and it had some radio content.
>
> One of the author's friends had a job installing upgraded comms gear
> in helicopters because VC or NVA were intercepting or at least
> detecting helicopter comms with an ordinary FM radio.
>
> What was not clear was whether that meant a broadcast radio or an FM
> field radio of some kind.
>
> I believe helos were equipped with low band FM gear and that either:
>
> 1)captured or interoperable sets were used or
> 2)harmonics of the low band FM gear were detected on a relatively
> empty FM broadcast band.
>
> Option 1 would give legit intercept capability, which could be
> defeated by encryption. Option 2 might give enough early warning
> capability to either disappear or assume a defensive posture.
> Presence of signal, encrypted or not, might give the necessary warning.
>
> Encryption would require the ground pounders to be encrypted also.
>
> Anyone know anything that might flesh out the story?
>
> RF
>
>
>
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> ______________________________________________________________
> Milsurplus mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/milsurplus
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>
> End of Milsurplus Digest, Vol 223, Issue 5
> ******************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2022 22:42:00 +0000
> From: Mike Morrow <kk5f at earthlink.net>
> To: George Sliney <gjsliney48 at gmail.com>
> Cc: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] NESTOR: AN/PRC-77 with TSEC/KY-38 *CORRECTED
> PHOTO*
> Message-ID: <cbfe171a-2448-f35d-c0d0-1059eba20d2e at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The photo shows the TSEC/KY-38 connected to the RT-841/PRC-77.
>
> The TSEC/KY-28 is NOT shown. That is the NESTOR crypto unit for
> AIRCRAFT applications. Many KY-28s were installed on Vietnam-era Army
> helicopters for use with their AN/ARC-54 or AN/ARC-131 tactical FM radios.
>
> Mike / KK5F
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Sliney <gjsliney48 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Nov 2, 2022 12:42 PM
> To: <kk5f at arrl.net>
> Cc: Rob Flory <farmer.rob.flory at gmail.com>, milsurplus
> <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] NESTOR: AN/PRC-77 with TSEC/KY-38 *CORRECTED
> PHOTO*
>
> Wow! That Ky-28 unit looks as large and heavy as the KY-8 units I had
> aboard my ship. What contributed to the size and I assume the weight
> of the KY-28? I sure did not want to try and lug around a KY-8.
> Luckily, all my issues with my KY-8's were from the key insertion
> device. The RM's had a lot of difficulty in setting up the slides and
> inserting the device into the KY-8. I normally would be in the crypto
> room "assisting" with the setups.
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM Mike Morrow <kk5f at earthlink.net
> (mailto:kk5f at earthlink.net)> wrote:
> CORRECTED MIRROR IMAGE PHOTO
>
> Attached is a photo of the Vietnam-era man-pack AN/PRC-77 (top) with
> TSEC/KY-38 NESTOR voice encryption unit (bottom). Plus soldier and M14
> rifle. :-)
>
> State of the Art in 1968. Dainty ain't it?
>
> Mike / KK5F
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Milsurplus mailing list
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> End of Milsurplus Digest, Vol 223, Issue 8
> ******************************************
>
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--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Little ARRL Technical Specialist QCWA LM 28417
Amateur Callsign: WB4UIVwb4uiv at arrl.net AMSAT LM 2178
QTH: Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx) USSVI, FRA, NRA-LM ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"
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