[Milsurplus] Milsurplus Digest, Vol 223, Issue 8

Thu Nov 3 13:17:15 EDT 2022

 When I lived in OH years ago I monitored USAF 'command planes.' KY-8 was mentioned often. It was not a code system but instead it was multiplexing audio conversations, only some of which sounded to be encrypted. I used a surplus VLF tuner to capture the different audio lines.
Jack
    On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 06:42:25 PM EDT, milsurplus-request at mailman.qth.net <milsurplus-request at mailman.qth.net> wrote:  

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: NESTOR: AN/PRC-77 with TSEC/KY-38 *CORRECTED PHOTO*
      (George Sliney)
  2. Helicopter comm intercept. (lbfulton at windstream.net)
  3. Re: NESTOR: AN/PRC-77 with TSEC/KY-38 *CORRECTED PHOTO*
      (Mike Morrow)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 10:41:59 -0700
From: George Sliney <gjsliney48 at gmail.com>
To: kk5f at arrl.net
Cc: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>,    Rob Flory
    <farmer.rob.flory at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] NESTOR: AN/PRC-77 with TSEC/KY-38 *CORRECTED
    PHOTO*
Message-ID:
    <CAKq9ESaA_7QZNcPddpgwqvs99oDvkYPYgUDR_sfMCO8pJn5jJQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Wow!  That Ky-28 unit looks as large and heavy as the KY-8 units I had
aboard my ship.  What contributed to the size and I assume the weight of
the KY-28?  I sure did not want to try and lug around a KY-8.  Luckily, all
my issues with my KY-8's were from the key insertion device.  The RM's had
a lot of difficulty in setting up the slides and inserting the device into
the KY-8.  I normally would be in the crypto room "assisting" with the
setups.

On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM Mike Morrow <kk5f at earthlink.net> wrote:

> CORRECTED MIRROR IMAGE PHOTO
>
>
>
> Attached is a photo of the Vietnam-era man-pack AN/PRC-77 (top) with
> TSEC/KY-38 NESTOR voice encryption unit (bottom). Plus soldier and M14
> rifle. :-)
>
>
>
> State of the Art in 1968. Dainty ain't it?
>
>
>
> Mike / KK5F
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Milsurplus mailing list
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 18:36:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "lbfulton at windstream.net" <lbfulton at windstream.net>
To: milsurplus at mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Milsurplus] Helicopter comm intercept.
Message-ID:
    <2114382148.146270232.1667428584208.JavaMail.zimbra at windstream.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

The USN and USMC did not often use NESTOR in SEA, although the UHF-AM AN/PRC-41A was a modification of the -41 for NESTOR, and the KY-8 was on many USN ships including submarines for UHF-AM service.  It was not installed with PBR and PCF AN/VRC-46 sets, and I have never read of USMC use of NESTOR in Vietnam. (The USMC was mostly out of Vietnam by 1971 except for embassy security.)

I've got a little problem with what has been written here. At Marble Mountain Air Facility, east of Da Nang, every CH-46 squadron had KY-28 voice encryption units on their aircraft. I have no reason to make this up. I worked on/maintained these encryption units. I left Vietnam with 12 combat aircrew medals from 5 months as a helicopter machine gunner in May, '71. Garrett Fulton, service number 2405379. The combat history will make it easier to look up the facts and see that I'm telling the truth. Didn't do any embassy security duty.

----- Original Message -----
From: milsurplus-request at mailman.qth.net
To: milsurplus at mailman.qth.net
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 12:04:51 PM
Subject: Milsurplus Digest, Vol 223, Issue 5

Send Milsurplus mailing list submissions to
    milsurplus at mailman.qth.net

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
    milsurplus-request at mailman.qth.net

You can reach the person managing the list at
    milsurplus-owner at mailman.qth.net

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: TBY on the air (Nick England)
  2. Re: TBY on the air (Gene Smar)
  3. CV-2460/SGC (Daniel Jones)
  4. Re: Helicopter Comms Intercept as referenced in "The    Greatest
      Beer Run Ever" (Mike Morrow)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2022 18:19:18 -0400
From: Nick England <navy.radio at gmail.com>
To: Hubert Miller <Kargo_cult at msn.com>
Cc: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] TBY on the air
Message-ID:
    <CAB55hNdfGzj_zf_bwtN4FyRmnuzc-kLfnb4ApD8MycSXvXJT3A at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

The Marines didn?t like them, but some folks did??.

Convoy UC-21 May 1944
Liverpool to New York

*The Commodore says*
that the voyage was routine, "except greater plane coverage than ever
experienced before. On the whole the cooperation of the Masters, the
excellent TBY operation and communications, as well as the unusual
experience of having three ships in the convoy with radar, made it the best
convoy of which I have been Commodore".

-- 
Nick England K4NYW
www.navy-radio.com
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 01:08:03 +0000 (UTC)
From: Gene Smar <ersmar at verizon.net>
To: navy.radio at gmail.com, Hubert Miller <Kargo_cult at msn.com>
Cc: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] TBY on the air
Message-ID: <771408573.2391409.1667351283599 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Nalww2museum.org has an article declaring there were other indigenous peoples serving as code talkers. Some mentioned are Choktaw and Comanche. The Cherokee nation also provided talkers during WW1.

73 deGene Smar AD3F?

Sent from my Radio Shack TRS-80 model 100 laptop 

  On Tue, Nov 1, 2022 at 6:19 PM, Nick England<navy.radio at gmail.com> wrote:  ______________________________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2022 17:10:07 -0700
From: Daniel Jones <djones at k6yic.com>
To: mrcg-west at groups.io, mrca at mailman.qth.net,    List Milsurplus
    <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>,    Greenkeys <greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [Milsurplus] CV-2460/SGC
Message-ID: <5E18228B-2FCE-4F16-AD7B-DEDF092F6377 at k6yic.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Good evening my fellow Military collectors.  I am looking for a teletype converter CV-2460.  If you have one available please let me know.  It would be shipping to 92880.  

Daniel Jones
K6YIC 

www.K6YIC.com
DJones at K6YIC.com
HH#11973

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2022 16:04:43 +0000
From: Mike Morrow <kk5f at earthlink.net>
To: Rob Flory <farmer.rob.flory at gmail.com>, milsurplus
    <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] Helicopter Comms Intercept as referenced in
    "The    Greatest Beer Run Ever"
Message-ID: <bdc26531-bd42-0629-4f6f-4d456327d642 at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

The NESTOR voice encryption system was developed by the mid-1960s for use with Tactical FM and (much less commonly) military UHF-AM radio sets.

NESTOR crypto units were:

TSEC/KY-8    Ground fixed and mobile
TSEC/KY-28  Aircraft
TSEC/KY-38  Portable man-pack

The Army's most commonly used man-pack set up to 1968 was the AN/PRC-25, but it was not compatible with NESTOR.  The most important change made to its successor, the AN/PRC-77, was its redesign  for NESTOR.  The elimination of AN/PRC-25's one vacuum tube was of only incidental importance.

NESTOR-encrypted communication between all major Army units was thus NOT possible until the AN/PRC-77 showed up in 1968, along with the TSEC/KY-38 portable NESTOR unit.

The TSEC/KY-38 was almost the same size, shape, and weight as the AN/PRC-77.  The two units connected together with a couple of awkward external cables very subject to entanglement in vegetation.  Pity the poor RTO who carried it all plus his own packband weapon.  The KY-38 thus was extremely unpopular with its users.

After 1968 TSEC/KY-28 was installed on most Army combat aircraft.  A Command and Control UH-1 would have a KY-28 for its AN/ARC-54 or -131 Tac FM radio, plus a temporary console in the back with three AN/ARC-54 sets and TSEC/KY-28s.

Ground units had TSEC/KY-8 for some AN/VRC-12-series installations.

Among all users, NESTOR was unpopular due to voice transmission delay after PTT and distortion.  Great care had to be taken with the initialization process on all units prior to an operation.

The USN and USMC did not often use NESTOR in SEA, although the UHF-AM AN/PRC-41A was a modification of the -41 for NESTOR, and the KY-8 was on many USN ships including submarines for UHF-AM service.  It was not installed with PBR and PCF AN/VRC-46 sets, and I have never read of USMC use of NESTOR in Vietnam. (The USMC was mostly out of Vietnam by 1971 except for embassy security.)

NESTOR was replaced by VINSON (TSEC/KY-57) more than 40 years ago.  I don't have any idea what is used now.

Mike / KK5F

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Flory <farmer.rob.flory at gmail.com>
Sent: Nov 1, 2022 2:52 AM
To: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [Milsurplus] Helicopter Comms Intercept as referenced in "The Greatest Beer Run Ever"

I recently read this book, quite a story, and it had some radio content.

One of the author's friends had a job installing upgraded comms gear in helicopters because VC or NVA were intercepting or at least detecting helicopter comms with an ordinary FM radio.  

What was not clear was whether that meant a broadcast radio or an FM field radio of some kind.  

I believe helos were equipped with low band FM gear and that either:

1)captured or interoperable sets were used or
2)harmonics of the low band FM gear were detected on a relatively empty FM broadcast band. 

Option 1 would give legit intercept capability, which could be defeated by encryption.  Option 2 might give enough early warning capability to either disappear or assume a defensive posture.  Presence of signal, encrypted or not, might give the necessary warning.

Encryption would require the ground pounders to be encrypted also.  

Anyone know anything that might flesh out the story?

RF

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End of Milsurplus Digest, Vol 223, Issue 5
******************************************

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2022 22:42:00 +0000
From: Mike Morrow <kk5f at earthlink.net>
To: George Sliney <gjsliney48 at gmail.com>
Cc: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] NESTOR: AN/PRC-77 with TSEC/KY-38 *CORRECTED
    PHOTO*
Message-ID: <cbfe171a-2448-f35d-c0d0-1059eba20d2e at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

The photo shows the TSEC/KY-38 connected to the RT-841/PRC-77.

The TSEC/KY-28 is NOT shown.  That is the NESTOR crypto unit for AIRCRAFT applications.  Many KY-28s were installed on Vietnam-era Army helicopters for use with their AN/ARC-54 or AN/ARC-131 tactical FM radios.

Mike / KK5F
-----Original Message-----
From: George Sliney <gjsliney48 at gmail.com>
Sent: Nov 2, 2022 12:42 PM
To: <kk5f at arrl.net>
Cc: Rob Flory <farmer.rob.flory at gmail.com>, milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] NESTOR: AN/PRC-77 with TSEC/KY-38 *CORRECTED PHOTO*

Wow!  That Ky-28 unit looks as large and heavy as the KY-8 units I had aboard my ship.  What contributed to the size and I assume the weight of the KY-28?  I sure did not want to try and lug around a KY-8.  Luckily, all my issues with my KY-8's were from the key insertion device.  The RM's had a lot of difficulty in setting up the slides and inserting the device into the KY-8.  I normally would be in the crypto room "assisting" with the setups.

On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM Mike Morrow <kk5f at earthlink.net (mailto:kk5f at earthlink.net)> wrote:
CORRECTED MIRROR IMAGE PHOTO

Attached is a photo of the Vietnam-era man-pack AN/PRC-77 (top) with TSEC/KY-38 NESTOR voice encryption unit (bottom). Plus soldier and M14 rifle. :-)

State of the Art in 1968. Dainty ain't it?

Mike / KK5F

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