[Lowfer] #18 wire
Bill Ashlock
ashlockw at hotmail.com
Thu Dec 8 17:14:09 EST 2011
Hi Bob,
I'm using a std LRC meter to measure the capacity. I'm quite a distance from the nearest AM radio station and have never experienced an interference problem from any RF source. Can't remember the make of my LRC meter but I'll post this tomorrow night.
Yes this is a counterpoise, 8' above ground, return system, but the wires are not radial like spokes in a wheel, as most of them are. My type is a "Y"made out of three 34ft, #12 wires joined at their ends and supported by three ropes connecting to three trees off to the side. Between the legs of the "Y" are three parallel #18 wires spaced at appox 3ft so it looks like a triangular spider web looking down from the top.
BTW, I've never experienced any benefit in tuning the counterpoise but as one reaches a length of something like a 1/4WL there could be an advantage to this.
Bill
> To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 21:21:32 -0500
> From: riese-k3djc at juno.com
> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
>
>
>
> Hi Bill
>
> what are you using to measure the cap
> if I read you correct you are going to a
> counterpose system as opposed to a set of ground
> radials,,, I just built an HF ground plane for 40 on up and
> used 12 or so radials er counterpose and the antenna
> really works well,, the wires arent tuned to a length but still
> provide good return for RF,, mounted at about 15 ft. at night really
> comes alive
>
> Bob K3DJC
>
>
>
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2011 20:07:30 -0500 Bill Ashlock <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
> writes:
> >
> > Here's an update Rick:
> >
> > I completed the lower "Y" this morning on my new vertical antenna.
> > (IE: that illegal counterpoise :) BTW, at least on may first design,
> > there would be no hope of getting out a signal worth a nickel if I
> > didn't use a counterpoise electrically isolated from the earth... no
> > matter how many ground rods I pounded into the ground. The lowest
> > Rac I could get in this design using typical grounding techniques
> > was something like 500 ohms!!! Once I complete the antenna I will
> > run some more tests to determine the
> > ground conductivity and the Rac without the counterpoise. Removing
> > all
> > the trees from this area has caused the ground to be fairly wet so
> > this
> > may have a positive effect on the ground conductivity.
> >
> > The capacity tests today gave the following readings:
> >
> > 1. Capacity between upper and lower "Ys" separated 50ft = 150pf
> >
> > 2. Capacity between upper "Y" and a pipe driven into the ground =
> > 320pf
> >
> > The really good news is that I discovered that my nearest Home Depot
> > actually does have the #18 chandelier wire in 500ft spools so I will
> > install the fill-in wires and re-measure the capacities ASAP. Guess
> > I'd better get a transmitter, exciter, and lead-in wires ready to go
> > as well.
> >
> > Later...
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > > From: ashlockw at hotmail.com
> > > To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
> > > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 20:10:23 -0500
> > > Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > >
> > >
> > > Rick,
> > >
> > > I have my upper and lower "Ys" in place and tomorrow I hope to
> > make my first capacity measurement. Then I will need that #18 wire
> > in order to continue the effort.
> > >
> > > I'll have to check in my archives in order to reactivate my memory
> > of what we talked about relative to a ground screen below a loop. My
> > current sense of this is that they have no effect if only as large a
> > the base of the loop. They don't appear to lower the Rac, at least
> > with my two types of soil.
> > >
> > > Your 1.38 ohms seem to be higher than it should be. I forgot to
> > ask if you checked the accuracy of your current probe to see if
> > something there may have changed.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > > From: smokinggun at verizon.net
> > > > To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
> > > > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 04:23:05 +0000
> > > > Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Bill,
> > > > Well it was nice of the logging company to hook you up like
> > that. I cant
> > > > wait to hear it. Sounds like lots of wire !
> > > > I have the same mountain conditions here in the Poconos; all
> > rock and clay.
> > > > I wonder if you still planned on testing a loop with a ground
> > screen like
> > > > we were discussing a while ago ?
> > > >
> > > > As far as my loop goes; the Rac went up from 1.18 on Friday to
> > 1.38
> > > > Saturday ; the day after I elevated the lower leg and trimmed
> > the trees. I
> > > > dont expect anything went bad in the TX in that time.It would
> > be quite a
> > > > coincidence. It wasnt a drastic change but I just expected it to
> > go down not
> > > > up.O h well, maybe my measurements were off before I trimmed but
> > I rechecked
> > > > the loop current a few times after trimming and again 2 days ago
> > and all the
> > > > readings are the same.
> > > > Good luck with the new antenna raising !
> > > >
> > > > Rick "PBO"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bill Ashlock" <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
> > > > To: <lowfer at mailman.qth.net>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 2:01 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Rick,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yah, a bit of a shift in loyalty from TX loops to a vertical
> > (although not
> > > > > quite a traditional form of a vertical). The open area just
> > cleared out by
> > > > > loggers crys out for a vertical and should give a good A/B
> > comparison of
> > > > > the performance of these two antennas. They left a huge birch
> > tree in the
> > > > > center of this area and it is about 120ft from the closest
> > tree on my
> > > > > property. The plan is to run one rope support end of the "Y"
> > over the top
> > > > > of this tree and run the other two rope supports to the tops
> > of two trees
> > > > > on my land forming a 120 deg angle between each rope. The Y
> > itself will
> > > > > be composed of #12 stranded house wire. A counterpoise with a
> >
> > > > > geometrically matching "Y" will be 50ft below this. I will be
> > filling in
> > > > > the "Ys" with smaller gauge wire in order to increase the
> > capacity between
> > > > > them as much as possible consistent with low cost and low
> > weight. The apex
> > > > > of the "Ys" of course will be connected to the vertical
> > element and the
> > > > > loading coil will be hanging in the approx ce
> > > > > nter of this. The whole antenna will be floating relative to
> > ground
> > > > > because of the very poor ground conductivity up here. This
> > pretty much
> > > > > described my first vertical on site (5 years ago) except it
> > was an "X"
> > > > > antenna instead of a "Y" and was located in the center of my
> > 200ft wide
> > > > > lot. The performance of this antenna was quite good (Rac in
> > the order of
> > > > > 10 ohms) but I had to remove it soon after its installation to
> > make room
> > > > > for my house. So far I have installed the ropes over the tops
> > of two trees
> > > > > and should be able to complete the third tomorrow. (BTW I'm
> > still doing
> > > > > pretty good with the compound bow - now batting 1000 :)
> > Luckily the
> > > > > weather has been good for this project.
> > > > >
> > > > > About your loop: What you did shouldn't have raised the Rac.
> > Must be
> > > > > something very subtle. Are the two lower legs touching
> > anything other than
> > > > > insulators? That's the most sensitive area. Recheck the Xmter
> > on the bench
> > > > > and also check the resonating caps if nothing else looks out
> > of place.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >> From: smokinggun at verizon.net
> > > > >> To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
> > > > >> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 04:38:17 +0000
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Wow Bill; I want to see what that looks like and how it
> > performs ! Its a
> > > > >> horizontal "Y" ? I guess your feeding it where the 3 legs of
> > the "Y"
> > > > >> meet?
> > > > >> Do tell!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> BTW : My loop is doing ok.I trimmed some trees and moved the
> > feed point
> > > > >> from the corner to the center of the loop( shouldnt change
> > performance)
> > > > >> .That night I was copied by Andy and Doug down in TN ; almost
> > 500 miles!
> > > > >> Not
> > > > >> bad for a new guy ! For some reason though by trimming the
> > trees away and
> > > > >> raising the lower leg from 4 ft up to 8 ft and moving the
> > feedpoint ; my
> > > > >> Rac went up ?I was expecting the opposite but what do I
> > know.
> > > > >> Keep us informed on your "Y " experiment .Im real curious.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 73
> > > > >> Rick KA2PBO
> > > > >> "PBO" 187.2Khz "or so" qrss60
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: "Bill Ashlock" <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
> > > > >> To: <lowfer at mailman.qth.net>
> > > > >> Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 4:02 AM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Thanks Warren. I'll have to stop in on my next trip south
> > and/or give
> > > > >> > them
> > > > >> > a call. This is for the antenna design that uses a tall
> > tree 120ft off
> > > > >> > to
> > > > >> > the side of my land. This was originally planned to be an
> > "H" antenna
> > > > >> > (rotated 90deg) but I found the capacity between top and
> > bottom
> > > > >> > sections
> > > > >> > to be only about 100pf and not much more with caged
> > conductors. A "Y"
> > > > >> > design (looking down from the top) on the other hand has a
> > capacity of
> > > > >> > almost 400pf if the "Y" is filled-in with a spider web of
> > smaller ga
> > > > >> > wire.
> > > > >> > I can use two trees on my land to form the "Y". (This is a
> > Lowfer
> > > > >> > antenna,
> > > > >> > BTW, fitting inside a 50' x 50' cylinder)
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Bill
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> From: k2ors at verizon.net
> > > > >> >> To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
> > > > >> >> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 22:30:33 -0500
> > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> Bill,
> > > > >> >> Electronic Surplus Sales in Candia, NH has wire on
> > spools at scrap
> > > > >> >> prices. Selection varies from day to day, so it might pay
> > to check
> > > > >> >> with
> > > > >> >> them
> > > > >> >> first.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> 73 Warren
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> >> From: "Bill Ashlock" <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
> > > > >> >> To: <lowfer at mailman.qth.net>
> > > > >> >> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 10:06 PM
> > > > >> >> Subject: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > Does anyone know of a cheep source for #18 bare stranded
> > wire? Need
> > > > >> >> > about
> > > > >> >> > 500ft for a new Lowfer antenna design.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > Used to buy so-called 'chandelier wire' at $12 for a
> > 500ft spool at
> > > > >> >> > Home
> > > > >> >> > Depot but now I'm seeing astronomical prices.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > Bill
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >
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