[K3PZN-List] presentations
Peter Hiltz
pmhiltz at gmail.com
Fri Jun 9 09:49:48 EDT 2017
Jim,
Great and educational discussion!
I'm working the club web pages and read in your emails an offer to give a
presentation. Can I put you on the list for August or September? If so, a
brief abstract would be great. I've some examples on the web page,
www.qis.net/~k3pzn.
Thanks,
Pete
WV3S
On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Mark Rosenthal <marksro at comcast.net> wrote:
> Jim-
> Thanks again. Lots of good info, gives me some direction for
> thinking/planning purposes.
> Looking forward to talking at the next meeting
> 73
> mark
> W3MSR
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 2017, at 11:05 AM, James Nitzberg via K3PZN-List <
> k3pzn-list at mailman.qth.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > I will likely have a chance to do a more detailed review of your options
> in person at an upcoming CCARC meeting. This is one of my favorite topics!!
> >
> > Though I have somewhat limited experience myself building a station, I
> have been fortunate to operate and learn the design of several
> super-stations that have been built over the years
> > here in Maryland.
> >
> > Your requirements are actually (somewhat) straightforward - I have
> noticed you left 160 meters off your "must have" list (5 band DXCC, not 6),
> and that simplifies your station building. Of course you can have an awful
> lot of fun on 160 with relatively simple antennas, however that band is
> mostly a CW band for DXing (and SSB for rag chewing).
> >
> > Since you are not focused on contesting, and you ARE focused on DXing,
> you probably won't care if you lose a few dB here and there - or you are
> 10dB down from your competitors because you have a compromise antenna
> height that is way too high on some bands - for USA and closer DX locations
> like (close) European countries.
> >
> > I'll start with something I learned a long time ago from Frank Donovan,
> W3LPL (he is the master station builder in the Maryland area, has the best
> DX and contest station around for many miles on most if not all the bands).
> >
> > IF you are ONLY putting up one tower, and you are ONLY buying one
> directional antenna to cover 10 - 40 meters, you will likely land with
> about a 100 foot tower and a single Yagi at 80 to 100 feet. Why? This is
> a reasonably good height for 40 meters, a very good height for 20 meters, a
> little high on 15 (in some areas) and though quite a bit high on 10 meters,
> due to the nature of propagation when that band is open, it will still work
> well. There are several good stations built in Maryland that subscribe to
> this theory. W3LL has a single yagi at 90 feet and does quite well with
> it. WB2ZAB has one 100 foot tower with a large, strong mast and two yagis
> (one for 40, one for the other high bands). N3OC uses (2) 100 foot towers
> with a stack of (2) yagis on one for the high bands (10/15/20) and another
> stack at 50 and 100 feet for two 40m antennas.
> >
> > If you want to up your game just a little bit (and spend another few
> thousand dollars on a second antenna) you can stack two yagis at 50 and 100
> feet, and you won't have huge compromises at all on 10, 15 & 20 meters (or
> the WARC bands, if your antennas support them). The 50 foot stacking is
> good compromise for 15 & 20 meters, too far apart on 10 (but still may
> work) and too close on 40 (but still may work). The real beauty of the two
> separate heights is of course the ability to cover a much wider variety of
> arrival angles of DX without "suffering" if your antenna is at the wrong
> height.
> >
> > I am making an arbitrary assumption that you probably wish to keep your
> spending below $50,000 (and perhaps below $20,000) for your first tower
> effort. It can bet very expensive, very quickly, when you start stacking
> antennas, and building structures over 100 feet (provided you have the
> zoning approval to do so).
> >
> > Most folks looking to work DX with a one tower station pick a tribander
> antenna (or one that covers at least 10/15/20). Others pick antennas with
> motorized elements so they can have all the bands covered. (SteppIR).
> Alternatively you can buy antennas with MORE fixed elements and cover all
> the bands of interest. Several of the best antennas also cover 40 meters!!
> >
> > So with one good antenna at 80 - 100 feet, you can quickly be in the
> 'secondary tier' of DX stations, where most folks will have a weaker signal
> than you except the very best stations. Note that there are times,
> however, with an antenna that high, that on some bands you will wait in
> line to work 'short haul' DX, simply because your antenna is too high to be
> competitive. Many folks who haven't studied the ARRL documentation never
> thought an antenna could be "too high".
> >
> > For 80 meter DX, a 2 element wire phased vertical array is actually a
> very good transmit antenna in two directions. Since your goal is working
> DX, you will likely have to double your investment and use a 4 element wire
> vertical array known as a 4-square. These can be made of aluminum elements
> as well at a higher cost, however if you do not have 4 x 65 foot trees to
> hang wires in at the right spacing, it is the way to go. Using a 4 square
> vertical array with 40 - 60 quarter wave verticals under each element will
> put you near the top of the heap in the DX pileups on 80 meters.
> >
> > A much easier first effort, if you have a 100 foot tower, is to simply
> string a wire dipole up at the top of the tower. Why? It will be a
> relatively good DX antenna, even at that height. Will it beat the
> 4-square? Not likely, however to the Caribbean, some close destinations in
> EU, etc. the dipole could actually be LOUDER at times. Your ideal solution
> is to have both. Getting started, however, I would install a resonant
> dipole at 100 feet with the ends as high as possible to keep it flat
> (realizing some amount of droop on the sides is necessary) and you will
> have an incredible amount of success getting started. Focus on building
> some good receive antennas for 80 meters. Even with a simple dipole at 100
> feet, your ability to transmit will quickly out-talk your ability to
> receive your callers, and the weaker DX stations you want to work.
> >
> > For 160 meters, since it is not a primary goal, a good first step is a
> vertical antenna running the length of your tower or some type of inverted
> "L" wire. You may also try loading the tower itself since you are only
> transmitting one signal at a time (shunt fed vertical = your tower).
> >
> > For low band receive antennas, you will review Pennants, Loops, K9AY
> type RX antennas, Share Apex Loop (SAL), short beverages, longer beverages,
> and finally, if you get serious, receive vertical arrays like 4 square and
> eventually 9 circle receive arrays (you have to be quite serious to start
> with those, but they are the best for fishing up weak DX in all directions).
> >
> > In order to get started, you will need to know:
> >
> > 1. How much land do you have? This might limit your tower height.
> >
> > 2. How much money do you want to spend....at first?
> >
> > 3. Guyed or self-supporting tower?
> >
> > 4. Do you care about the WARC bands (12/17/30) - if you do, you need a
> more specialized antenna or more antennas.
> >
> > 6. How badly are you going to feel when your friends beat you in the
> pileups to the short-haul DX locations like the Caribbean? If you care,
> you'll need a 2-stack of antennas for the high bands.
> >
> > Hope this gives you some things to think about. I will be glad to
> answer questions, perhaps off line, since this thread might quickly become
> tiresome for those not interested.
> >
> > At my own station, my primary interest is contesting, and I use (4)
> separate monoband antennas, on 4 separate masts, each about 55 feet tall -
> for 10 to 40 meters. The station is land and height limited (i.e. a 100
> foot tower would really help) however I am constantly impressed by the
> performance of the antennas at relatively low heights. WE do team
> operating (multiple simultaneous signals) at WX3B and often win several
> events each year. You are welcome to visit to get an idea of what works
> well...and what doesn't!
> >
> >
> >
> > I will also be available at a date in the future to present these
> options and relative efficiency at a club meeting in the future!
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Jim WX3B
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Mark Rosenthal <marksro at comcast.net>
> > To: James Nitzberg <wx3b at yahoo.com>; Carroll County Amateur Radio Club <
> k3pzn-list at mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 11:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [K3PZN-List] presentations
> >
> >
> >
> > James
> > Thanks for your interest.
> > I didn’t give much information about what I personally wanted as I
> thought this was to be a topic for a general presentation.
> > I did read the ARRL Handbook and Antenna book. That is part of what led
> to my questions- what I read was “ideal” was not what I saw in practice. I
> made some educated assumptions, but wanted to be more sure I was correct.
> >
> > You are right about simple wire dipoles. I have had good success. When
> I got my license, my wife told me: “You can put up an antenna over my dead
> body”. While it was a tempting thought, I opted instead for a resonant fan
> dipole (for 10 and 20M) in the attic over the garage. 15 feet above
> ground. Actually worked well. Over time the wife relented, and I now have
> a ladder line fed dipole about 30 feet up in the trees. I have talked all
> around the world with that one. Very impressed with what a little wire
> form Lowes will do.
> >
> > As to what I would like:
> > 1- I do mostly DX. Not too interested in contests. I do both digital
> and SSB.
> > 2- Land is yet to be determined. Now that the kids are out, the wife
> and I are looking to move. Hopefully an acre or two for antennas.
> > 3- trees? Won’t know till we find the place
> > 4- Bands I would like? Simple. All of them. I would especially like
> to do 80, 40, 20, 15, 10. Most common for Dx. And at some point I would
> like to get five band WAS. As I understand it, phased verticals on 80 and
> 160 would use up a lot of land, not only between elements, but between the
> arrays and towers. May be a bit much. But I am open to anything right
> now. Would also like stacked Yagis, but also costly in both money and land.
> > 5- As I have not really done 80/160 it is hard to say exactly what I
> would want. But from what I read, receive antennas seem to be needed. One
> option to consider would be a skywave loop for 160/80. Works well for
> transmit and receive both.
> > 6- As I don’t do contests, 2 transmitters at once is not much of a
> concern. Except it may be nice to monitor two frequencies at once. (If I
> tune into a DXpedition working by the numbers, I could listen for them to
> get to threes with one ear while scanning for other stations using the
> other ear.
> > 7- Budget is good. I am pretty much retired, and should be completely
> done by the end of 2018 for certain. At that point I will keep working
> until I have funded my station. I enjoy what I do so I can work a long
> time to pay for toys. And it gives me an excuse to not be home.
> >
> > Thanks again for any insight you can give.
> > 73
> > Mark
> > W3MSR
> >
> >
> >> On Jun 5, 2017, at 10:59 PM, James Nitzberg via K3PZN-List <
> k3pzn-list at mailman.qth.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Mark,
> >>
> >> This is a GREAT topic, and one of my personal favorites.
> >>
> >> You might be surprised how well your wire dipole would work at the
> right height (perhaps you already are).
> >>
> >> You are correct that most folks place one tribander (or more bands on
> one antenna) at a compromise height because of cost and land constraints.
> >>
> >> There are also different heights for different objectives, and of
> course the lower in frequency you go, and the more DX you wish to work
> (assuming your goal is DX), the higher you generally wish to get the
> antenna.
> >>
> >> Some questions for you to answer before I form some broad
> recommendations and suggestion for you are:
> >>
> >> 1. What is your goal? To work DX? USA stations? Rag chewing?
> Contesting??? Give me some idea of your interests. CW or SSB? Digital
> modes?
> >>
> >> 2. How much land do you have to use for your antenna installation?
> >>
> >> 3. Do you have any tall trees > 60 feet tall that you are willing to
> use for wire antennas (i.e. wire yagis, etc.)
> >>
> >> 4. Are you open to using a directional array of phased verticals on 80
> & 160 meters? Do you care about 80 & 60 meters?
> >> (A better question is: What bands do you wish to operate and/or
> optimize?)
> >>
> >> 5. If you are hoping to do well on 80 & 160, do you wish to utilize
> specialized receive antennas (Beverages, loops, vertical arrays?)
> >>
> >> 6. Do you have any aspirations for running more than one simultaneous
> transmitter, or having one operator control two radios at once (SO2R)?
> >>
> >> And last but not least....
> >>
> >> What type of investment are you willing to make in dollars, to achieve
> your radio goals (a range is a good place to start, i.e. $1,000 - $5,000,
> $5,000 - $10,000, etc.)
> >>
> >> If you give me this type of background on your goals, I can begin this
> dialogue over the reflector, or I can sharpen it and try to make an
> interesting 45 minute presentation
> >> with some examples of existing stations out of it.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> Jim Nitzberg WX3B
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Mark Rosenthal <marksro at comcast.net>
> >> To: Carroll County Amateur Radio Club <k3pzn-list at mailman.qth.net>
> >> Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 9:19 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [K3PZN-List] presentations
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Andy-
> >> I have a question that may be a good topic. Or the answer may be so
> simple as to not warrant an entire meeting.
> >>
> >> My current station consists of a radio, and a wire dipole. Pretty
> basic. The wife is allowing me a tower at our next house (moving in a year
> or so now that the kids are all out). So I need to decide how to select
> the correct antennas. From what I read in “the books”, proper beam height
> is 1.25 wavelengths. But looking online what I see are many stations with
> a single tower/antenna, a multi band yagi at one height. I assume that is
> a compromise for cost and space. But I am not sure. Is there another
> reason I am missing? And sometimes I see stations with a tower with a beam
> at a height other than 1.25 wavelength. Why? Am I missing something?
> >>
> >> A talk on the “best” method of setting up a station using a tower with
> beams, what kind of beams at what heights, and what other types of antennas
> (such as 80M and 160M, receive antennas, etc) would be great.
> >>
> >> Then another talk on station equipment. Such as antenna switching,
> automated band selection and sequencing to power down pre-amps, receive
> antennas, etc, use of filters (just for contesting/multiple transmitters at
> once? Or helpful for reducing noise for DX)? Other types of helpful
> electronics, etc.
> >>
> >> I know those are pretty broad topics, but any help would be very useful.
> >>
> >> 73
> >> Mark
> >> W3MSR
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jun 4, 2017, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Leeds <wo3l at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> All,
> >>> We've had a number of interesting pretensions over the last few
> months. July's presentation by Pete, WV3S, is the last one currently
> scheduled. Any volunteers for August and into the fall? Questions that
> can be turned into topics are welcome too.
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>> Andy
> >>>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> 73 de K3PZN Westminster, MD
> >>> ______________________________________________________________
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> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >>
> >> 73 de K3PZN Westminster, MD
> >> ______________________________________________________________
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> >>
> >> 73 de K3PZN Westminster, MD
> >> ______________________________________________________________
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> > ______________________________________________________________
> >
> > 73 de K3PZN Westminster, MD
> > ______________________________________________________________
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> > 73 de K3PZN Westminster, MD
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>
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