[HCARC] Antennas, Radios and Elmering
Gary and Arlene Johnson
qltfnish at omniglobal.net
Sun Aug 5 19:16:08 EDT 2012
Bill,
You are getting better and better at answering questions - or is it I am
getting better and better at understanding what you are saying. Probably
the first vs the second.
I guess what I need most to do is get my radio, a good tuner even though the
radio has an automatic tuner, and maybe invest in or borrow an antenna
analyzer and test out the antenna(s). As you said in another email I got a
great deal on them. For their cost I probably could sell them for scrap for
more than I paid. Ebay would even better if they turn out not to work. Was
hoping to tempt enough people to come out for some antenna sessions in a
local park and I would buy donuts. No takers of the offer yet though.
Gary J
N5"BAA"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tynan" <billandmattie at windstream.net>
To: "Gary and Arlene Johnson" <qltfnish at omniglobal.net>; "Bob Richie"
<bob.k5yb at yahoo.com>
Cc: <hcarc at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [HCARC] Antennas, Radios and Elmering
> Gary:
>
> You asked abt what Club members were using. So, OK, here I go. My main rig
> is a Flex 5000A, software defined radio. I would NOT suggest it for your
> first rig. One, it is quite expensive - abt $2500. Two, you need a
> computer to go with it and it should be at least a dual core machine
> running Window XP or beyond. I am still running XP. It puts out abt 90
> Watts on 160 thru 6 meters. However, since I have no HF antennas, I have
> only used it on 6 meters, and with the optional VU module, on 2 meters and
> 70 cm.
>
> I also have a Yaesu FT-736R with 2 meters, 222 MHz ,432 and 1296 in it. I
> use it on 222 & 1296 but am in the process of replacing it with
> transverters for those bands. I also have an Icom 706 Mk2G which covers
> 160 thru 70 cm. As I recall it only puts out 10 Watts on 70 cm and 50
> Watts on 2 meters, but 100 Watts on the other bands. It can work SSB, CW
> and FM. So, it can be used on the Club repeater. It is small and my be
> more acceptable to a wife who is not too enthused abt ham radio than might
> some of the boatanchors one runs into, HI!
>
> The newest version of the 706 series is the IC-7000 which has a fancier
> readout and possibly some other features. The original 706 covered up to 2
> meters and had only 10 Watts out on 2 meters. The 706s make a fair SSB
> radios, but are not great on FM. Though they work CW, it is not their
> strong suit, either. The receive passband is too wide for good CW work.
> Thus, one can be bothered by QRM from stations near the frequency. I do
> not know if the 7000 is any better in this regard.
>
> One thought on the AS-2259. I have never seen one and don't even know what
> one is. But from the discussion, it sounds like it is fed with fairly
> stout pipe which also serves as the coasual transmission line. If that
> line of 50 Ohms, then one might be able to use it as the vertical support,
> then cut 1/4 wave pieces of wire, one set for 80 meters and the other for
> 40 meters , not using the wires that the AS-2259 comes with. Anything
> witha 10 to 1 VSWR is a no no. These wires should run out perpendicular to
> each other as much as possible. The ends can be at ground level or better
> elevated 6 to 10feet. Depending on how high the center is, you end up with
> inverted Vs for 80 and 40. The 40 meter wires will also work on 15 meters.
>
> On 80 and 40, the impedance will be close to 50 ohms. Yes a half wave
> dipole at a fair height above ground has an impedance of about 75 Ohms.
> But, when the antenna is closer to the ground, such as in an inverted V
> arrangement, the impedance is lowered to abt 50 Ohms - just what one is
> looking for.
>
> If the pipe on the AS-2259 is not long (high) enough, you could get
> substantial piece of aluminium or steel pipe and lash the AS-2259 feed
> pipe to it with muffler clamps, thus extending it.
>
> If the AS-2259 feed pipe is not 50 Ohms, forget what I just said and get
> mast of some sort 20 to 30 feet high and use it to support the two half
> wave inverted Vs. Don't worry about baluns or the coax radiating. You
> don't care. Yes, this is a so-called NVIS antenna, but you will be able to
> work stations 500 to 1000 miles away when conditions are right as well as
> the ones closer in. You might, or might not, need an antenna tuner to work
> 15 meters. On 15 meters, it will not be and NVIS as 21 MHz is almost
> always above the critical frequency (that which is directly reflected back
> to Earth).
>
> Any kind of vertical antenna will have a lower angle or radiation than the
> inverted V, and hence has the potential of working stations farther away.
> However, if it is anything other than a half wave vertical, like a 1/4
> wave vertical, it will require ground radials - the more the better. AM
> broadcast stations normally use 120. As sort of minum is 4. If you are on
> soft ground and have acreage, it is not a big problem to burry radials. Of
> course, the expense of buying the wire can present a problem. But if you
> are on rock as I am, burying radials is a major undertaking.
>
> My understanding is that the Gapp vertical at the Club station is a half
> wave antenna and thus does not require radials. However, I believe that it
> works only on 20 thru 10 meters. Someone may correct me on this.
>
> I know that this has been a lot to swallow.
>
> There will NOT be a quiz in the morning.
>
> You asked about Belton. Belton is a hamfest which is held twice per year
> at the Bell County Exhibition Center south of Temple. I'm sure Google will
> give you specific dates etc.
>
> I hope this helps too.
>
> 73,
>
> Bill, W3XO/5
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary and Arlene Johnson" <qltfnish at omniglobal.net>
> To: "Bob Richie" <bob.k5yb at yahoo.com>
> Cc: <hcarc at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 1:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [HCARC] Antennas, Radios and Elmering
>
>
>> Bob,
>>
>> I claim to be someone who doesn't mind moving someone out of their
>> comfort zone. As such I have no problem what so ever with someone doing
>> the same to me. Smart ass questions can do that and to be really honest,
>> it felt good to go back and try to remember some of the genetics info
>> from the far distant past (40+ years ago). Hard to believe but true.
>>
>> If I eliminate all those criteria when reading eham reviews there aren't
>> any reviews left to read :-). Your comments go along way to prove that
>> the people you ask about a radio should be people you trust, and I can't
>> think of any group of Hams that I trust better than the members of HCARC.
>> Hence all the more reason for a listing of what radios each member runs.
>> I know that we don't like to be on lists, but it surely helps people find
>> the right people to answer specific questions and since the roster is
>> password protected, members should be fairly certain that the information
>> is protected.
>>
>> Gary J
>> N5"BAA"
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bob Richie
>> To: Gary and Arlene Johnson
>> Cc: HCARC at mailman.qth.net
>> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 12:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [HCARC] Antennas, Radios and Elmering
>>
>>
>> I was kind of being a smart ass about the mutation question but it kind
>> of makes my point and that is "well, it depends." It's kind of like
>> radioactive decay - it's pretty easy to measure rates over time with
>> great precision. We have no way to predict when a certain atom will
>> decay. If you ask 6 hams for an opinion you will get at least thirteen
>> definite answers and another nine qualified answers. You've gotten
>> several suggestions for a rig and if you are looking for operating
>> experience the rig does not matter.
>>
>>
>> Here are some hints for looking at reviews on e-Ham. Forget the 5s. They
>> are either from folks who are reporting the radio is performing as
>> advertised or are brand devotees. Some guys wont drive anything but
>> Fords. If the reviewer has operated the rig for less than about 90 days
>> discount the review. If the guy just looked at it and didn't like the
>> paint color, forget it. If a reviewer complains about a problem no one
>> else reports, be careful. If a reviewer tries to compare the rig to
>> another, forget it.
>>
>> Bob
>> K5YB
>> Kerrville, TX 78028
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Gary and Arlene Johnson <qltfnish at omniglobal.net>
>> To: Bob Richie <bob.k5yb at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: HCARC at mailman.qth.net
>> Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2012 11:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: [HCARC] Antennas, Radios and Elmering
>>
>>
>>
>> In laymans terms you can't predict purely random mutations. That's why
>> they are RANDOM. In layman's terms you can effect mutations and expect
>> mutations by bombarding DNA and RNA with radiation. You cannot predict a
>> perfectly random distribution of ionizing radiation as to which cell it
>> might affect. Since it is purely a random distribution over the
>> direction the beam of radiation is applied you would expect a random
>> number of cells to be affected. We are dealing with a purely random
>> event, although if I were to bombard the cells for a long enough time all
>> would have mutations, but the cells would be dead first.
>>
>> My problem with Ohms law is I assume it is NOT RANDOM and that
>> resistance in a copper wire of 14 guage should be within limits pretty
>> much the same dependent upon the diameter (gauge of the wire). This
>> shouldn't be random - more a function of the ability of a wire to be
>> drawn to a nominal thickness. I am told that the resistance of wire
>> increases as distance increases in a copper wire, hence to run a certain
>> amount of a/c electricity from my shop to one of my barns (450 feet away)
>> requires larger and larger wire to reduce the resistance or I guess, to
>> spread the resistance out over a longer wire diameter. Said another way,
>> the longer the distance run, the larger the wire required. In the
>> instance of the antenna Coax we were talking about previously, normal
>> RG58 coax has a copper conductor that is probably somewhere around 20
>> gauge and it has a 50 ohm resistance. The hard line mast for the AS-2259
>> which I am told is COAX has a conductor inside (copper as far as I can
>> tell) that is approx 1/4 inch in diameter inside of a hard casing with
>> dielectric that is 1 1/2 inches in diameter - why supposedly does it have
>> an enormous resistance??? One would guess that the 1/4 inch copper
>> conductor would have much less reisitance than the much smaller RG58
>> conductor. OR somehow the resistance is being affected by other factors
>> that I am unaware of. Please explain.
>>
>> As for a 2 element answer to the radio - yes an Icom 746 might work, so
>> would Icom 756 and the 756 Pro series of which the 7410 has largely
>> replaced. Really the Icom 7600 replaced the the 756's and the 7410
>> replaced the 746. Having had a permanent search on Ebay that sends me an
>> email every time Icom 746 and 756 (and many others too) appears in any
>> auction I can tell you that the cost for a used one of either is almost
>> as much as a new 7410. And BTW, if you ask Dale, the first radios I
>> talked to him about when I took his course were 746's and 756's. I have
>> been compiling some information about radios for other Newbies that I
>> come across who are looking for radios. What I cannot ever gain is the
>> perspective that people have who have operated these radios over a period
>> of years. Eham tries to do some of that, but the reviews are as random
>> as the person operating the radio and that person is unknown. Who knows
>> if that person had the smarts to get the SWR low enough that
>> he didn't fry the transmitter and aren't ALL PROBLEMS THE MANUFACTURERS
>> PROBLEMS, NEVER THE OPERATOR. I am smart enough to know that just like
>> airplane crashes and car accidents - the majority of the time problems
>> are caused by operator error.
>>
>> OK, rather than a list of radios that are recommended for Newbies, then
>> how about in the club roster, each person list the radios they commonly
>> operate with, so if a newbie or an oldie wanted to know about a certain
>> radio they would know which members to go and ask. It doesn't have to be
>> hard. As for me, I probably will wait and get either the 7410 or 7600
>> finances permitting. I have been saving since I began Dale's Course back
>> in Feb or March. However, I was under the impression that this site
>> (Reflector) was for the benefit of all the members, not just me. Hence,
>> when talking about radios, I talk about radios available to more than
>> just me. Chuck Hopkins is using my General CLass Exam Book to get his
>> upgrade. I can guarantee he will be going through the same decisions that
>> I am when he decides to get his HF radio. Wouldn't it be nice for him to
>> have some kind of database of some sort to go through to make an easier
>> intelligent decision on what to buy or as importa
>> nt - what to stay away from.
>>
>> Gary J
>> N5"BAA"
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bob Richie
>> To: Gary and Arlene Johnson
>> Cc: HCARC Reflector
>> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 7:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [HCARC] Antennas, Radios and Elmering
>>
>>
>> OK, you want a simple two element answer. here it is.
>> Get yourself a good used Icom 746 and a Hustler 4 BTV vertical. You
>> can easily modify the antenna to add 12 meter and 17 meter capability and
>> you can screw an 80 meter ham stick into the top to add 80 meters. When
>> your operating abilities exceed the capability of that system, ask your
>> questions again.
>>
>>
>> Don't like that answer? Then try this one. Wait until you can get the
>> Icom 7410 since that seems to be the rig you want. If you can't get it
>> right away that's ok. It is a fairly new rig and there may be some new
>> rig issues to work out.
>>
>>
>> As for the microbiology, please explain in layman's terms how you
>> predict mutations.
>>
>> Bob
>> K5YB
>> Kerrville, TX 78028
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Gary and Arlene Johnson <qltfnish at omniglobal.net>
>> To: HCARC at mailman.qth.net
>> Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2012 11:45 PM
>> Subject: [HCARC] Antennas, Radios and Elmering
>>
>>
>> First to Bill Tynan - IT ALL HELPS - thank you very much for the
>> response, and you answered my question in terms I could understand. I
>> asked what time it was and you told me. Congratulations, you are one of
>> the first!! Barb S. will understand the last comment.
>>
>> Second to Bob R. - IT ALL HELPS TOO - However, If I were to have
>> anywhere close to that many radios I would be divorced - no kidding!!!
>> My wife is not that supportive of this "Extra Hobby". It's the single
>> most important reason why I am trying to find the best fit for being able
>> to comfortably and reliably communicate with the least amount of gear
>> trouble possible. At least at first, I would really like to be able to
>> eliminate (if at all possible) the radio from being a source of problems.
>> It's hard enough to learn all (some) that one needs to know without
>> having to fight a radio too. Trust me, I have been looking for the right
>> radio. The Icom 7410 which I have pretty well settled on (unless I can
>> afford by some miracle an ICOM 7600 - not likely) as the radio I want to
>> get pretty well makes it easy for me to get in and get my feet wet -
>> reliably. I cringe at the thought of trying to tell my wife I need/want
>> 4-6 different radios for different things. As for a nich
>> e -
>> I am a retired Naval Officer who was fortunate enough in his 24 1/2
>> year career to have traveled almost completely around the world. The
>> only part I haven't been through (and really never wanted to go there) is
>> from the Indian Ocean side of the Suez Canal to the area around Thailand.
>> Other than that I have been the rest of the way around this big blue orb
>> including Antarctica (3 summer seasons) and South Pole. In fact I was
>> lucky enough to have been able to make a MARS phone patch from
>> Amundson/Scott South Pole Station back to California. Bill Tynan told me
>> the other night it was too bad I wasn't a HAM at that time so I could
>> have taken a couple of handy talky's and communicated from each of the
>> worlds time zones simply by having walked around the South Pole. I desire
>> to be able to talk as far around the world as possible, to as many people
>> as possible, as often as possible. At this point in my Radio experience
>> I find PSK31 and RTTY somewhat BORING, however I recogni
>> ze
>> both as being ways to "talk" when propagation on the different bands
>> is not conducive to SSB. Yes, I know that CW is even better, and trust
>> me I will get there, but I am not close to "there" yet. There are many
>> things that pull on my time, some of which are raising sheep and goats
>> and Stock Guard Dogs, being married, and radio has to fit in with those
>> for time. Thankfully, radio works in the dark of night, and thankfully I
>> have a good retirement - otherwise there would have been no time to even
>> start. If I had to try to juggle full time employment with all the other
>> things going on I would not have even gotten started in Dale's class
>> either. Oh, did I mention I like to fish too??
>>
>> I do not think I am that much different than most of the new Hams I
>> have met. As a group, we seem somewhat frustrated with one thing or
>> another. Some of us are trying to find the right radio, others are
>> struggling with antennas, some are struggling with finances in this poor
>> economy. The simple statement of "just get a radio and try it out" seems
>> the easy way out when someone asking for information. It might be the
>> proper response, but I don't think so - yet. Of the group of Newbies, I
>> am (probably) the most vocal. I don't mind trying to move people out of
>> their comfort zones. I probably ruin more relationships than I help.
>> Tilting with windmills is a past time of mine. And if you haven't
>> realized it yet I am not afraid to toss in my 2 cents worth - frequently
>> too my detriment. The only bad question truely is the one not asked - I
>> live by that motto. At least I try though - shy, I am not.
>>
>> Last to Kerry - IT ALL HELPS TOO!! However, some things don't seem to
>> follow as to why some things have high ohms resistance and others - not
>> so much. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason to so much of it.
>> My Masters is in Microbiology. In the sciences we were taught that
>> things should follow in an orderly manner, obeying the rules. Yeah, sure
>> they do!!!
>>
>> I look forward to getting a few antennas and a radio together and
>> trying them out. Say when and I will buy the donuts. Coffee and tea is
>> BYOB as I am LDS (Mormon - we don't do coffee). And yes we should do it
>> when Jeff is available for the donuts.
>>
>> Gary J
>> N5"BAA"
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