[GreenKeys] Fwd: just bagged a heath TU off eplace good to go with H89 in disp...

Mon Nov 5 22:38:13 EST 2012

I forgot to forward this to the list. So enjoy those interested in
this conversation.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove <captainkirk359 at gmail.com>
Date: 5 November 2012 21:43
Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] just bagged a heath TU off eplace good to go
with H89 in disp...
To: COURYHOUSE at aol.com

This is going to be a really "random" e-mail, as I'm writing it as I go...

In terms of processors, the best for use in a H11 would probably be
the 23 or 23+ -- the M8186 and M8189 to be specific; also called the
KDF11-A and KDF11-B (respectively). This is because they work fine in
either 18-bit or 22-bit backplanes, Q/Q or Q/CD.Though, in a Q/CD you
MUST break the grant continuity lines, lest your cause the release of
magic smoke on CD lines.

In terms of processor though; the KDF11-A is only available either
with no options, with the MMU, with the MMU and FPP, or with the MMU
and CIS. The KDF11-B is available with the same options as the
KDF11-A, as well as with having both the FPP and CIS along with the
MMU. Essentially all of the KDF11-A modules have the MMU though, so
nevermind those without an MMU (they are rare, and only really
valuable as sellable oddities). There is also a special different
version of the FPP. Namely the FPF11 which is actually built out of TI
bitslice processors and is incredibly fast. It uses a cable from the
board to the FPP socket on the KDF11 CPU board. The FPF11 beyond being
incredibly fast, is also incredibly hard to find, and incredibly
expensive when found because of its rarity.

The FPF11 also takes up a full quad-wide space; so it's rather large.
It however is also workable with both QBUS and UNIBUS machines (so the
11/23, 23+ and 24), that's because it doesn't take a look at the bus
at all, and its edge connects are nothing but grant continuity card
connects.

The J-11 processors are quite a bit faster, but are geared better
toward large 22-bitter systems rather then the smaller 18-bit H11. The
11/73 comes in two versions the dual wide and the quad-wide. The
quad-wide does PMI memory as well as normal bus memory. There is no
direct UNIBUS equivalent of the 11/73 though. Neither is there an
equivalent for the "low end" 11/53. The 11/83 and 11/93 are basically
better and faster versions of the quad-wide 11/73; they also have a
bunch of parallel ports if I remember correctly. There is a UNIBUS
equivalent of the 83 and 93 though. Namely the 84 and 94; which are a
normal 83 or 93 paired with a QBUS-UNIBUS card.

If you put a 73 or 53 with a QBUS-UNIBUS card, you do not get a 54.
And you DEFINITELY do not get a 74. That's because the 11/74 is
something completely different. Do you know of the best PDP-11 model
the 11/70? Well the 11/74 was DEC's attempt at a multiprocessor system
version of it. Could be configured at up to four parallel processors.
(Or a single processor system.) It came with the CIS option. It was
killed for the VAX. Because apparently DIBOL on the the CIS enabled
11/70 CPU outperformed the DIBOL on the VAX. Several production
systems appeared, and in fact the internal DEC department responsible
for RSX-11M/M+ had one of the quad processor machines -- running SMP
capable RSX-11M+. Which by the way is normal RSX-11M+ with one set of
build/sysgen options commented out on the normal distro tapes.

The RQDX* controllers while they do speak to standard ST_412/ST-506
disk drives require the attached diskette drive have the *PROPER*
Shugart interface, so PC drives tend to not work on them. Also the
RX50 5.25" diskette format is nothing like the normal 360K or 1.2M
diskette formats. Though, the RX33 is apparently a normal 5.25" 1.2M
diskette drive. I don't know if it was for the RQDX3 or DEC's RZQ*
SCSI controllers.

In terms of peripherals, the most desierable ones would probably be an
RL01 or RL02 disk pack drive in all it's glory, with an RLV12
controller (the RLV11 requires C/D interconnect and is two quad-wide
boards. It also doesn't like 22b buses). Next would probably be the
RXV11 and RX01 or RXV21 and RX02 8" diskette drives (the former being
SSSD, the other being SSDD); some third party manufactueres made so
called 'RX03" drives, being DSDD drives, which are supported by RT-11
V4, kind of; using a driver build flag to enable dual sided diskette
drives.

You can also do well with an RXV11 or RXV21 controller without
diskette drives attached. As there is a program to emulate the
aforementioned diskette drives using the PC parallel port.

Another "nice" peripheral to have would probably be a DRV11 parallel
port card. Though some of them -- like the DRV11-J -- can become
pretty expensive. They're quite nice if you want your '11 to control
something. (Model train set perhaps?)

Also, very popular are Ethernet controllers. But you have to be
careful of what OS you are running if you acquire one. As some OSes
require DECnet, others require TCP/IP, and some do both. Example would
be RSTS/E which only runs DECnet/E; meanwhile 2.11BSD and
Ultrix-11speak TCP/IP only; while RSX-11 now speaks DECnet and TCP/IP
(due to hobbyists RSX now has TCP/IP). If you want the best solution
for getting TCP/IP machines speaking to DECnet machines I'd suggest
either a VAX (or VAX emulator) running VMS being a bridge. You can
also use standalone Linux if you install that one DECnet package.

A good terminal is a must of course. I suggest the VT-220 for
compactness, or the VT-100 for the pure coolness. If you wanted try
and get a VT_103 and combine your '11 and terminal in one unit. If you
want graphics, get the VT-241 or VT-330; ReGIS/Tek graphics are always
a cool demo.

That's all I can think of for now though.

Cheers,
CHristian

On 5 November 2012 14:38,  <COURYHOUSE at aol.com> wrote:
> this is all great info  many thanks !!!  feel free to ramble anytime !!
> ----Ed
>
> In a message dated 11/5/2012 10:21:17 A.M. Alaskan Standard Time,
> captainkirk359 at gmail.com writes:
>
> Umm no...
>
> The M8192 version of the 11/73 -- that is the *DUAL WIDE* version --
> will work in an 18-bit backplane, if I remember correctly. It's the
> M8190 -- the *QUAD WIDE* version -- that absolutely requires the C/D
> interconnect for PMI memory.
>
> Of course, the M8190 is also the module number of the 11/83 and 11/93.
> So some M8190s are more expensive then others. It's all dependent on
> the appended letters to the M8190 module.
>
>
> You really need to look at either the DEC Edited Option Module List or
> one of the handy PDP-11 Field Guide files to see what the suffixed
> letters mean. Since there's quite a price difference between a board
> that is incapable of getting an FPU and one with an FPU and CIS
> options.
>
>
> Of course, there's also the memory modules one needs to know about. A
> quad-wide PMI memory will *NOT* work in an 18-bit serpentine
> backplane. A quad-wide or dual-wide QBUS memory will however -- if it
> supports 18b addressing. (Some of the small memories are only 16b
> addressing capable.)
>
>
> The BA23 box -- which I think looks a bit ugly, I like the BA123 box
> more, or the BA11 style box -- has a few Q22/CD slots at the top of
> the backplane, and the rest is all Q22/Q22 serpentine. You'd put the
> PMI memories *BEFORE* the CPU, and then the devices on the QBUS after
> the CPU.
>
>
>
> More important information about the PDP-11's peripherals -- always,
> always *ALWAYS* put an RQDX1 or RQDX2 controller as the very last
> device on the bus; since they break the grant continuity chain. The
> RQDX3 and RQDX4 are fine though.
>
> A good controller to acquire is an MSCP SCSI controller like the
> CQD-220; because you can still "easily" acquire fifty-pin SCSI disks,
> which are nice and small, and "reliable enough". Plus te SCSI disks
> are nice and bit, and you could put things like BSD or RSX, or RSTS on
> them.
>
>
>
> Any way, I'm rambling.
> Cheers!
>
>
>
>
> On 5 November 2012 13:20, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
>> u need a ba23 backplane for the 11/73
>> h11 is not a ba23
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
>> <captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ah, will the 11/73 work in the H-11?
>>>
>>> The answer is "Maybe." It depends on whether the H11 does anything
>>> "funky" with the -- at the time of the LSI-11/03 -- unused bus lines
>>> that the 11/23 and 11/73 (and later 22-bit '11 CPUs) used for the
>>> higher order address bits.
>>>
>>> It shouldn't since the H11 uses the actual straight from DEC LSI-11 CPU
>>> board.
>>>
>>>
>>> You will probably also want to invest in an MSV11-L RAM; or if you
>>> feel very bored, wirewrap the backplane to 22-bit and invest in a 512K
>>> or 1MB RAM board.
>>>
>>>
>>> Otherwise, it should be fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Christian
>>>
>>> On 5 November 2012 13:04,  <COURYHOUSE at aol.com> wrote:
>>> > I will have to make a list  ...    due to it's prior owner I would
>>> > suspect
>>> > it is as loaded as can be.  I have the floppy drives but the   disks
>>> > are
>>> > roached ... I need to  find  some live media or a way to load and save
>>> > some....tell me more....... oddly enough I wonder if the  ACE  video
>>> > editor
>>> > carcus  that has an  11/73  board in it would fly in this  H-11 unit!?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > In a message dated 11/5/2012 8:48:43 A.M. Alaskan Standard Time,
>>> > captainkirk359 at gmail.com writes:
>>> >
>>> > Hello Ed:
>>> >
>>> > What kind of boards are in the H11 by any chance?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > And have you considered trying to get the H11 up and running RT-11 by
>>> > any chance? (All you need is a PC with a serial port and a second
>>> > serial port on the H11. And patience. BUT NEVERMIND THAT!)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Also, you considered trying to upgrade the H11's CPU from the godawful
>>> > LSI-11 to a PDP-11/23 CPU instead?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Christian
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>>
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