[GreenKeys] younger generation greenkeyers ?

Thu Sep 1 22:26:15 EDT 2011

A PDP-8 would not be as great as a QBUS PDP-11. Mostly for three reasons:

1. They are much, much, *MUCH* more expensive. Dye to lower production
run, older machines (meaning when people gave less of a care they'd be
tossed into the trash faster), more expensive for a "full system" as
an 8 CPU box was of very little use.
2. The software - though interesting - is much less well known (yes,
OS/8 is useful and fun for playing SPACWR... but it's not as known as
RT-11).
3. An equivalent system to a BA23 PDP-11 would take up an entire
"short rack" of PDP-8 gear. This is because a BA23 hosts the whole
backplane, as well as has the space to place an RDxx class hard drive
(or two) as well as an RX50 (or RX33) or a TK50 tape drive. All you
need then is a terminal and you have yourself a complete system. Now,
the equivalent PDP-8 system would need the OMNIBUS chassis (8/a or
8/{e|f|m}) is one DEC "system unit" (6U tall)), then an RK05-J hard
disk drive (another system unit), then you'd need either an RX01 (or
RX02) diskette or a TU56 DECtape drive pair (another system unit); a
whole three system units tall (which is 18U), your terminal though
would be an ASR-33 so you could have paper tape. But - if you want to
not have to copy tape repeatedly due to teletype reader induced wear,
and also not have software loading take an ungodly long time, every
time - you'd need a PC04 high speed paper tape/punch (another system
unit). All in all that's four DEC system units, needing a full height
rack (and you still have space for two more system units). Transport
and care of that kind of system is more difficult then a QBUS 11;
though conversely, an RDxx hard disk, TK50 tape transport or RX50
diskette drive are much, much less easier to fix then an RK05, TU56,
or dual RX01. (Kind of like comparing a 33ASR or 35ASR with a VT100 or
VT220. One is simpler to get, impossible to fix and vastly smaller.
The other needs regular maintenance, is large, and is fixable.)

Also there is another reason for not using an 8 compared to an 11.
Namely, the FOUR buses that the '8 systems used; the original negibus
(early 8, the 8/S and early 8/I), then posibus (for later 8, later
8/I, the only bus on the 8/L, and the PDP-12), then 8/{e|f|m} OMNIBUS
(quad wide modules), and the special 8/a OMNIBUS modules (hex wide,
though it uses standard 8/e OMNIBUS modules too). And of course, you
can use negibus peripherals on an 8/a... but using two bus converters
in a row (OMNIBUS to posibus converter, then posibus to negibus
converter). And if you have a posibus system (8/I or 12) then you need
a bus converter to use OMNIBUS peripherals (which does not like DMA
so... you can't use the most useful OMNIBUS peripherals like the
RK8E), and a bus converter to use negibus peripherals. The 11 only has
two buses (UNIBUS and QBUS), one of which you won't see unless you
have a "pimpingly awesome/large" PDP-11 system (that's the UNIBUS).

Cheers,
Christian

On 1 September 2011 01:21, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
> or a pdp8 :P
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/5720562863/lightbox/
>
> what would it take to hook up the teletype to make tapes from binaries
> pulled off bitsavers?
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 10:58 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
> <captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Now, getting the machines to work with a PC is... depending on your
>> skills (and perhaps your morals...) a task that can vary from being
>> rather simple (comparatively) to being a massive, massive pain.
>>
>> The first question I should ask, is your PC a BD box, a Windows hole,
>> a Linux nuisance, or a Crapple^H^H^H^H^H^H^HMac? If it's Linux or BSD
>> you can actually use an ASCII TTY directly with the OS as an actual
>> real terminal (most easiest with a real live serial port, er go why I
>> say BSD and Linux, not Crapple) using a line in your inittab to have
>> getty/agetty/ttymon/whateverthehellyourdistributioncallsit set up the
>> serial port for: local connection (no carrier detect), uppercase only
>> terminal and of course the normal serial port characteristics for a
>> '33 or '35 (110 baud, 7, M, 2; will be 7, E, 2 if you have parity).
>> With that done, you have your TTY as one more console on your BSD or
>> Linux system. (Of course though, things will be odd.)
>>
>> If you're using a Crapple... you've got to do something somewhat
>> similar... except make your Mac play nice with a USB serial port first
>> (wonder of wonders, miracle of miracles if *THAT* works out for ya).
>>
>> On Windows... sorry no you cannot use your TTY to do everything you
>> can normally do on the machine, however... it can be marginally
>> easier. The easiest thing you can do is connect your TTY up to a
>> serial port and then:
>> 1. Use a terminal emulator to chat with your teletype (boring, but
>> interesting none the less).
>> 2. Use a serial port-to-TCP/IP port converter software to make your
>> TTY talk over telnet to something (like a BSD box, or - MASSIVE HINT -
>> connecting to SIMH running an <insert vintage system here>).
>> 3. Use a serial port-to-TCP/IP port converter software to make the
>> intertubes talk to your teletype via telnet... or connect to teletypes
>> over your LAN doing that.
>>
>>
>> Alternatively, you could also try and find a small QBUS PDP-11 system
>> if you want the TTY talking with a real, vintage machine (of course a
>> QBUS '11 would look more proper with a DECwriter... but let's not get
>> into that). Any system in a BA23 should do quite nicely, but a BA11
>> system with an RL02 (or two) would be far more captivating. More
>> captivating then that would be an actual 'blinkenlights' minicomputer;
>> like a PDP-8/E, PDP-12, or PDP-11/45; though of course you'd need to
>> find the disk systems to use with those (or a DECtape system). And an
>> RK05 drive (and the right media) is not really cheap... nor is the
>> power to run a big mini like an 11/45 or 11/70. (Though the 11 systems
>> can use RL01 or RL02 disks, the 8/E or PDP-12 can't. And they need a
>> different RK05 media from the media for PDP-11 systems (and the PDP-12
>> itself needs some very special and expensive peripherals to use an
>> RK05).)
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Christian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 26 August 2011 17:58, Steve Ripper <steveripper at comcast.net> wrote:
>> > Pete:
>> >
>> > My daughter Emily (10 years old) uses my model 33 every day. She knows
>> > to
>> > load Heavy Metal and prints out the daily Reuters "Today In History" and
>> > the
>> > local 10 day weather forecast. My son Ryan (6 years old) will sit a
>> > watch
>> > the model 28 hammer away all day if I don't make him do something else.
>> > I
>> > also let him help with the maintenance. He like to find the oiling
>> > points on
>> > the various diagrams. He now knows how to put the few drops of oil
>> > required
>> > on the easy to see and reach locations. I sure would like to find a way
>> > for
>> > the machines to be more interactive with a PC so they can use them as an
>> > input device and not just a printer. I was recently out bid on a
>> > complete
>> > PDP 11/45 system located in Wisconsin. We all could have had a lot fun
>> > with
>> > that.
>> >
>> > During this past June, I had my 17 foot enclosed trailer setup for the
>> > ARRL
>> > Field Day operations. This year I put a model 33 and 28 in the trailer
>> > along
>> > with all the other radio gear and had them running most of the time. I
>> > don't
>> > believe there was a single person that stopped by to see the remote
>> > setup
>> > that was not hypnotized by the Teletype's. I know how to use these
>> > machines
>> > with radios and Heavy Metal and copying ITTY etc, but my knowledge is
>> > limited regarding how to use these machines more interactively with a PC
>> > or
>> > other devices. My experience so far has been if you can get these kids
>> > in
>> > front of these machines it sure does spark an interest.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Steve Ripper
>> > steveripper at comcast.net
>> > Mobile: 248-787-0705
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> > [mailto:greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire
>> > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 3:37 PM
>> > To: greenkeys
>> > Subject: [GreenKeys] younger generation greenkeyers ?
>> >
>> > On the 5 hours drive back from Georges and from other conversations with
>> > friends
>> > curious  how many under 25 or 30 green-keys (keyers ?) there are and
>> > can anything be done
>> > to interest the teens or even younger ?
>> >
>> > I've had two teens totally go nuts over watching a 35 do its thing and
>> > one at least said it
>> > helped him decide to go into engineering, one win.
>> >
>> > the other though I had was one of those two sides of a coin. There's
>> > still a lot of Teletype
>> > stuff out there, but an awful lot is just getting trashed as dad or
>> > uncle die off and the
>> > kids just call the junk man. This could have easily happed the latest
>> > pile George was
>> > given the opportunity to rescue. On the flip side there are less and
>> > less of those interested.
>> >
>> > Oh well .. just some thoughts on if  can or should be done
>> >
>> > BTW Thanks to George I now have the means to do what John Nagle did, A
>> > strip
>> > printer that what looks like with a little work will fit in a glass
>> > box and be ready for demo
>> > next year.
>> >
>> > Except for once owning a 19 that was lost in a fire, which other then
>> > minor adjustment
>> > this will my first pre 28/35 Teletype I've worked on .. be ready for
>> > questions !!!
>> >
>> > -pete
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