[FADCA] HAMS using Internet
Jerry DeLong
kd4yal at tampabay.rr.com
Sat Oct 27 14:44:27 EDT 2007
Ed,
I was referring more to the concept that Sedan is using. Sound like their
problem could be easily solved with FBB or any well tested message handling
software. The fact they are using a self routing software is a big plus.
I single Fpac node being down now fragment the entire network. This surely
Could not be relied on during an emergency.
Even make it hard to test.
At any rate thanks for you nice comment.
Best regards, Jerry, KD4YAL
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edwin Crowell [mailto:w5twr109 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 2:02 PM
> To: kd4yal at tampabay.rr.com; Florida Amateur Digital Communication
> Association
> Subject: Re: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
>
> Sorry Jerry, You've been misled again. You have probably never tried
> to use Sedan before. Those of us who have discovered during an
> emergency like Charley it does NOT work. The message dies before it
> gets delivered. Just exactly what we feared. That's worse than not
> being able to connect. At least then you know the message didn't go
> out, and you can keep trying. You connect and truly believe the
> message has been sent only to find out a week later that it never went
> anywhere! I don't mean to be critical of anyone, much less you. I
> respect you, your training, experience and certainly your knowledge.
> Sometimes even all that is not enough. Jerry, Please stick with FADCA
> and let them (us) help each other create a reliable, inexpensive
> redundant, multi-level system. Then, everyone will be a winner, you,
> me, and Bud as well as FADCA and our friends and neighbors who we are
> actually protecting with the system. Best wishes, Ed, W5TWR
> P.S. I don't mind being wrong, because that's when I learn the most. eac
>
> On 10/24/07, Jerry DeLong <kd4yal at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > It's seems Bud was wrong when he said "No one really cares" in my
> previous
> > RANT. It looks to me as if there are still plenty of people that care or
> > they would have not taken the time to contribute to this thread.
> >
> > I think we could learn from the Sedan network. Here is a flat network
> > of Netrom nodes that can get the job done. It simple in nature and
> requires
> > little no maintenance. For this very same reason is why Flexnet type
> > networks works well.
> >
> > My biggest complaint with Rose is that it not self routing like Netrom
> > or a Flexnet type node. Very seldom do I ever have a need to add a
> static
> > route for my Netrom or Flexnet nodes.
> >
> > As John Daughtry said "So guys don't fuss make it work together the
> > different protocols can exist and in harmony." You're correct and that
> > been my goal working with Fpac node. Currently I have integrated Fpac
> > into Amprnet, Flexnet, and at one point was sending email from Fpac
> > shell.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards, Jerry, KD4YAL
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:fadca-
> bounces at mailman.qth.net]
> > > On Behalf Of Barry isbelle
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:55 PM
> > > To: 'Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association'
> > > Cc: TNolan1013 at aol.com
> > > Subject: RE: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> > >
> > > Sedan is still here, alive and well. Most of the state still has solid
> > > coverage. Nice thing about Sedan that it is self supporting and runs
> > > without
> > > internet support. The nodes run entirely without computers. The node
> is a
> > > specially programmed TNC and a radio only. 145.770 is the frequency.
> > > It is a mailbox to mailbox system and may seem dull to most, but it
> can
> > > deliver the mail. Primary commands are familiar to most, R to list
> known
> > > routes, N will list the known remote nodes, MH to list the latest
> logins
> > > and
> > > C to go to the nearest mailbox. B will exit you from the system.
> > >
> > > I believe that the most damaging aspect of our hobby is the political
> > > influence of the ARRL. Nothing else even comes close. It has been this
> way
> > > since before I got my first ticket in '69.
> > >
> > > Regards to all , Barry
> N2Db
> > > Orlando
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:fadca-
> bounces at mailman.qth.net]
> > > On Behalf Of J daughtry
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:27 AM
> > > To: Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association
> > > Subject: Re: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> > >
> > > Having gone through the packet wars of the late 80s and early 90s
> when a
> > > person could go most anywhere they wanted via nodes and BBS links
> packet
> > > was fun ran my own for many years a 4 stack node link in west central
> > > Florida then one after one we lost the links and nodes to get things
> > > done
> > > as the links disappeared the users did also.
> > > the young hams today grew up on the Internet and faster speeds and
> have
> > > no
> > >
> > > interest in the most part in packet
> > > if you notice even the use of the 2 meter repeaters is way down or
> almost
> > > none existent on some repeaters leaving them little more than beacon
> > > boxes
> > > .
> > > The good old days are gone and no one can bring them back because
> most
> > > of
> > >
> > > the guys have moved on .
> > > sedan network not sure it still works as planned and it was a
> emergency
> > > network for long range message movement .
> > > I was one of the first to set up portable packet systems for
> shelter
> > > use
> > > with a control op in attendance it was easy to get someone who could
> type
> > > and put the shelters
> > > reports on the system to be sent and print out the incoming stuff
> allowing
> > > the control op to handle other things and even grab a nap, but alas
> the
> > > ARES/RACES guys feared they would miss a tid bit and complained
> loudly in
> > > my experience most county E.M. s act like they are for but when the
> > > chips
> > > are down they do not listen not all are this way I was in south
> Florida
> > > after Andrew and we were the only communication there was for many
> days
> > > and we were needed .
> > > It is better to be setting idle than over worked and I do feel we
> should
> > > support the local county E..M. and be ready but the network needs to
> be
> > > user friendly and mesh together seamless so if needed you can sent
> to
> > > another county a request for support and the phone lines want get it
> > > done.
> > > Nothing is wrong with using Internet ports after Francis in 2005 I
> did
> > > not have cell service nor did my home phone line worked but my dsl
> was
> > > up
> > > back up generator powering my computer I was able to get messages to
> my
> > > partners I would be up every day at a certain time and message my
> family
> > > in 4 states we were OK .
> > > I gave up my rf powered BBS when I became sick and had to convert
> the
> > > room
> > >
> > > to a handicapped bedroom for me just had to have the room to exist
> but
> > > had that not happen I would still atleast have a stack up on 2 meter
> and
> > > 220 wanted to put up a 6 meter link but never got that done time ran
> out
> > > for me.
> > > so guys don't fuss make it work together the different protocols
> can
> > > exist and in harmony with a little give and take on both sides make
> it a
> > > state wide link and I for one will drag out my old pk88 and join in
> the
> > > racket to see how many contact of my old days I can find and maybe
> even
> > > put
> > >
> > > up a rf BBS back in operation or help someone do so in Sumter
> > > 73
> > > John
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Edwin Crowell" <w5twr109 at gmail.com>
> > > To: "Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association"
> > > <fadca at mailman.qth.net>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:02 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Phil, That's great. Keep it up! Good boy. I'll back you up
> all
> > > > the way. 73, Ed
> > > >
> > > > On 10/23/07, Royce, Philip <proyce at alachuasheriff.org> wrote:
> > > >> That would be correct, His version of end user in the first email
> > > >> indicated if we are going to advance the projects that we should
> > > provide
> > > >> internet to the masses and evidently that was not the case just to
> the
> > > >> ham community, at least we are on the same page on that one...lol..
> > > >>
> > > >> But please understand my view on providing any radio service
> either
> > > >> our own personal enjoyment or as a service to our community. We
> have
> > > >> seen in every facet of our hobby that to have a reliable system
> what
> > > >> ever it might be you have to have the right equipment, people to
> fix it
> > > >> install it ect., and the landscape to put it in.
> > > >>
> > > >> When it comes to packet or any network you need more than one
> location
> > > >> to operate from which means you need towers, equipment, and
> possible
> > > >> rental fees or at least repairs and installations of antennas and
> > > >> feedline.
> > > >>
> > > >> We enjoy packet for it's information and if possible the
> conferencing
> > > >> with our friends in other areas of the country if the system
> allows,
> > > >> unfortunately QSO1 is gone from this area. But we are also here to
> > > >> provide a service to our community, it's easy to say we don't want
> to
> > > >> help
> > > >> "why should I help, they don't help me" sorry I don't believe
> that,
> > > >> I've been providing comm. support since the early 80s. If we are
> going
> > > >> to enhance our network we need to show the people we serve that it
> is
> > > >> worth their interest to support and invest in us and our systems
> that
> > > we
> > > >> develop.
> > > >> For years we tried to get the hospitals to have a packet network
> and
> > > >> they had no interest, they just wanted to have a person there to
> answer
> > > >> phones and have a 2meter radio. For years we tried to get emergency
> > > >> management to have aprs and packet in their EOC's they wanted no
> part
> > > of
> > > >> it.
> > > >> We finally have them understanding we have something to offer them,
> > > that
> > > >> will let us improve our network for us to have fun with and provide
> > > them
> > > >> a valuable resource if trouble hits the fan.
> > > >>
> > > >> If I had my own 380ft tower I would have the same opinion
> probably,
> > > >> but the only way that GNV switch is going up is to use a county
> tower
> > > to
> > > >> do it, what does that mean, that means that I have to have
> something to
> > > >> offer them to allow the switch to be there. The last time this
> switch
> > > >> was up here in Gainesville it was on the TV20 tower, why did it
> come
> > > >> down because someone wanted another VHF and UHF voice repeater on
> the
> > > >> tower and didn't care about packet.
> > > >>
> > > >> We are not divided we just look at it in a different perspective,
> I
> > > >> look at it as I can't do it myself alone I'm going to sell it for
> what
> > > >> we can offer and hope someone has some resources for me to take
> > > >> advantage of.
> > > >>
> > > >> For months I've tried to come up with equipment myself for this
> > > >> switch, I have the computer and programmed by Charlie, I have the
> radio
> > > >> and the tnc's finally on my own.
> > > >> But finally we have an opportunity to have some investment into
> the
> > > >> system (NFL) because I can offer a means of communications to a
> group
> > > >> that needs it in an emergency, we are having a meeting next month
> about
> > > >> installing 7 communications packages in buildings and tower
> structures
> > > >> and presenting them with the high speed data and voice and
> packet/email
> > > >> from Gainesville to Jax. with a MOU to Marion county also. There
> is no
> > > >> way that us alone could do this ourselves. So please understand if
> you
> > > >> feel that I'm only out for myself it's not the case I and the
> packet
> > > >> users will enjoy the end result but at someone else's support.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm getting off this soapbox cause I really think when it comes
> down
> > > >> to it, it's not going to matter what anyone says it's will only
> matter
> > > >> what people do.
> > > >>
> > > >> As a footnote since Dstar is going though a major evaluation of
> > > >> coordination and enduser do's and don't's, I have asked a higher
> > > >> authority he opinion about the highspeed data providability and
> I'll
> > > let
> > > >> you all know what we can and can't do in the future with Dstar,
> since
> > > it
> > > >> is going to be a hot topic coming soon. See I could have done all
> this
> > > >> over Packet...GRIN.
> > > >>
> > > >> BTW Jerry I built a Ethernet UHF system before our 2.4 came out
> with
> > > old
> > > >> telemetry data radios EF Johnson that did my whole house for
> internet
> > > >> but that was before we had 8.1 data speeds on cable. And End User
> > > >> question, probably would not happen due to fact that there's not
> enough
> > > >> time in the day for it, someday maybe we could create a FBBS that
> had a
> > > >> search engine in it that selected only what we wanted and but when
> you
> > > >> have to LB < > 12345 to get what you wanted instead of "this is
> just an
> > > >> example"(S)radio parts or (S) radio parts (10212007)that's just my
> > > >> opinion lets not take it to another 10pages..lol
> > > >>
> > > >> 73 Phil
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> > > >> [mailto:fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry DeLong
> > > >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:53 PM
> > > >> To: 'Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association'
> > > >> Subject: RE: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> > > >>
> > > >> Dave,
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't think anyone wants to help "EMCOMMS" I believe I used the
> term
> > > >> "end user" and Phil assume I was talking about PUBLIC access. The
> term
> > > >> "end user" should have been more defined in the context of HAM "end
> > > >> users".
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Best regards, Jerry, KD4YAL
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> > > >> [mailto:fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
> > > >> > On Behalf Of n4zkf
> > > >> > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:00 PM
> > > >> > To: fadca at mailman.qth.net
> > > >> > Subject: RE: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I'm starting to think we have two different groups here. Some who
> > > want
> > > >> to
> > > >> > see a better "ham" radio network and some who want to see a
> better
> > > >> network
> > > >> > for "EMCOMMS".
> > > >> >
> > > >> > While I'm all for helping out in an emergency and have done so in
> > > many
> > > >> > disasters, I, just as you don't want to spend my weekends
> "working"
> > > as
> > > >> you
> > > >> > call it on a network for just the "general public". I don't want
> to
> > > >> help
> > > >> > build it just from EMCOMMS and Email. I guess we all have our
> > > alterior
> > > >> > motives.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Dave
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> > > >> [mailto:fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
> > > >> > On Behalf Of kd4yal at tampabay.rr.com
> > > >> > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:26 AM
> > > >> > To: Royce, Philip
> > > >> > Cc: Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association
> > > >> > Subject: RE: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Phil,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I still like to read packet bulletins there is still good
> information
> > > >> that
> > > >> > you
> > > >> > sometimes can't find anywhere else. As a user what would attract
> you
> > > >> to
> > > >> > using a bulletins board again?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I guess this was Charlie point.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > **sigh**
> > > >> >
> > > >> > When you talk about harden sites I believe this would prove to be
> > > very
> > > >> > difficult from a security stand point. From what I have seen in
> > > there
> > > >> > area
> > > >> > there aren't enough Network Professional willing to put forth the
> > > time
> > > >> and
> > > >> > most don't understand the concept.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Most bbs can send email if they are setup to do so I even had
> axMail
> > > >> setup
> > > >> > for Fpac to send email at one point. All flavors of xNos have
> native
> > > >> > support
> > > >> > for SMTP and POP3.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Actually Linksys has caught on and rather then creating a unhappy
> > > >> customer
> > > >> > base
> > > >> > they left the WRT54GL units on the market so people could use
> them
> > > for
> > > >> > there
> > > >> > wireless project. Any way there are other platforms out there
> just as
> > > >> > cheap and
> > > >> > easily modified.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > As far as your comment about the Amprnet I am not sure what to
> say
> > > but
> > > >> > these guys were way a head of there time. Most HAMS even as of
> today
> > > >> > can't seem to understand the concept that why we are using
> protocols
> > > >> like
> > > >> > Rose to build our networks.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I think maybe you are a little confuse to what would be consider
> > > >> > commercial use
> > > >> > and the use of for a fellow HAMS. For the second time no one
> would be
> > > >> > selling or
> > > >> > paying for a service. **END USERS** would be HAMs not the general
> > > >> public.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The Amprnet has evolved and matured further then any experimental
> HAM
> > > >> > radio
> > > >> > network in existences today. FACT
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I would really like to where you found the word **PUBLIC** in
> > > anything
> > > >> I
> > > >> > said.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > During a time of emergency I could see helping emergency
> responder
> > > >> make
> > > >> > there
> > > >> > way to the Internet since this is the medium uses for business
> today
> > > >> but
> > > >> > **NOT**
> > > >> > the general public.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Nice spin...
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Best regards, Jerry, KD4YAL
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ---- "Royce wrote:> A quote from AMPR.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > AMPRNet is not intended to be, and should not be used as, a
> > > substitute
> > > >> > for buying access to the Internet from a local Internet Service
> > > >> > Provider. It is, at this point in its evolution, an experimental
> > > >> network
> > > >> > which should not be relied upon to provide consistent or
> dependable
> > > >> > communications. As with ham radio itself, it is a hobbyist
> adventure.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > "quote"( We are at the point now were we could be supplying end
> users
> > > >> > with free Internet access and free email,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > digital voice traffic with just the cost of their own equipment.
> This
> > > >> > type of technology will bring back
> > > >> >
> > > >> > users but these type of network require TCPIP. The equipment
> needs
> > > >> could
> > > >> > be purchased pretty cheap.")
> > > >> >
> > > >> > It would be great to do, but there are lots of other ways to
> provide
> > > >> the
> > > >> > public with internet, and I'm not spending my weekends working on
> > > >> > projects for the general public, I'm doing it for the ham
> community
> > > >> and
> > > >> > emergency services.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> > > >> > [mailto:fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry DeLong
> > > >> > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 6:24 AM
> > > >> > To: 'Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association'
> > > >> > Subject: RE: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Hello, Phil
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Nice comments...
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Firewalls are easy to build and can easily control traffic the
> entire
> > > >> > internet is constructed this way.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Did you forget we are HAMS.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I have 2 Linksys router converted to Linux that were purchased
> for
> > > 70$
> > > >> > each
> > > >> > and could have the range 6-10 mile @ 54-10 mb depending on the
> site
> > > >> they
> > > >> > were setup at. They can also be modified for two serial ports for
> > > >> legacy
> > > >> > TNC. All they need is a weather proof case and antenna.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > This has already been done by other HAMS radio networks.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > One of my Linksys router is already running Xnet...
> > > >> >
> > > >> > If no one is paying for a service how is this consider
> commercial?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Perhaps you have not heard of the Amprnet? www.ampr.org
> > > >> >
> > > >> > You are correct IPIP tunneling or VPN connection is a good option
> for
> > > >> > site
> > > >> > to site work as this is the way it is done on the Amprnet.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Shame on us for forgetting our roots the answer isn't always to
> go
> > > buy
> > > >> > the
> > > >> > new Kenwood or in this case Dstar.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Best regards, Jerry, KD4YAL
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > FADCA mailing list
> > FADCA at mailman.qth.net
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/fadca
> >
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