[FADCA] SSIDs

Sun Dec 4 23:49:59 EST 2005

On 12/4/05, Russell Oder <oderr at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Boy, this is getting long, but once again, to the bottom I go.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Hast" <wchast at gmail.com>
> To: "Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association"
> <fadca at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 7:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [FADCA] SSIDs
>
>
> On 12/4/05, Russell Oder <oderr at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > See my latest response below a LOT of messages......
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chuck Hast" <wchast at gmail.com>
> > To: "Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association"
> > <fadca at mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: [FADCA] SSIDs
> >
> >
> > On 12/4/05, Russell Oder <oderr at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > You will find, like Bud stated, that the ROSE switch callls and to some
> > > extent the X1J Node calls, often used as a SSID the frequency as the
> > > "network" ssid , i.e. 144.99 ssid for KF4MX is -9 with -8 being the
> > > "digi"
> > > call used by BBSs to connect to one another as the "digi" call, if the
> > > link
> > > is lost, will not try to reestablish the connection and the message sent
> > > from one BBS to the other whould not be left imcomplete on the recieving
> > > BBS - it would be retained on the sending BBS for later retrasmission.
> > >
> > > Those on the reflector that set up BBSs can comment on the use of the
> > > "digi"
> > > ssid if they wish.
> > >
> > > Would it be good to have standardization, yes, is it possible in all
> > > situations, no.  Many of the sysops of digital devices have all of the
> > > the
> > > ssids for their call taken up already with coordinated devices and
> > > personal
> > > stations for various reasons.  I have my call on:
> > > - a ROSE switch on 145.07 as -10,
> > > - on a ROSE switch on 145.11/144.51 (my reapeater) as -11,
> > > - on a ROSE switch on 144.93 as -6 ,
> > > - on a ROSE switch on  446.125 as -8,
> > > - on a ROSE switch on  441.150 as -4 ,
> > > - on a ROSE Switch on  446.550 as -9,
> > > - on a Telpac Gateway on 144.93 as -3
> > > - on a Telpac Gateway on 444.700 also -4 (the two -4 devices don't see
> > > each
> > > other but soon will be changed as they will be direct connects from the
> > > same
> > > FPAC switch to two separate Telpac Gateways),
> > > - on my Paclink lap top, as -2, and,
> > > not to forget -0 which I use on Airmail on HF.
> > >
> > > So you see, with some changes being written to be submitted for
> > > coordination
> > > updates and changes in the database, some of us have difficulty with the
> > > limited number of SSIDs that the TAPR2 TNCs will accept.
> > >
> > > I think Bud has a similar problem and has approached with some
> > > additional
> > > resources to which he has access.
> > >
> > > Russ
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "bud Thompson" <budt at cfl.rr.com>
> > > To: "Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association"
> > > <fadca at mailman.qth.net>
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 9:56 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [FADCA] SSIDs
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <Aa4mi at aol.com>
> > > > To: <fadca at mailman.qth.net>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 08:44
> > > > Subject: [FADCA] SSIDs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> To FADCA Technical Committee,
> > > >>
> > > >> I have a very simple question:
> > > >>
> > > >> What Secondary Station IDs(SSID) does FADCA either recommend or
> > > >>
> > > >> request be used for each station's function within Florida?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Please provide a function/use for each:
> > > >>
> > > >> -1
> > > >> -2
> > > >> -3
> > > >> -4
> > > >> -5
> > > >> -6
> > > >> -7
> > > >> -8
> > > >> -9
> > > >> -10
> > > >> -11
> > > >> and any  others.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> My reasons for asking are twofold:
> > > >>
> > > >> My personal:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. I am planning to put APRS in each of my 2 vehicles.
> > > >>
> > > >> 2. I am planning to put APRS in my QTH. (Yes, I know it doesn't
> > > >> move.)
> > > >>
> > > >> 3. I am planning an APRS WX reporting site.
> > > >>
> > > >> 4. I may want to put an APRS in my hiking backpack or on my boat.
> > > >>
> > > >> 5. Eventually APRN may become a functional mode in Florida.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Second, for all packet users:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. When I look at a FADCA network plan or APRS map and see a SSID, I
> > > >> should
> > > >> be able immediately (at least in Florida) to know what the specific
> > > >> SSID
> > > >> indicates.
> > > >>
> > > >> 2. Since professional/Official weather sources have predicted that
> > > >> for
> > > >> the
> > > >> next 10 to 20 years, Florida will have substantial quantities and
> > > >> intensities
> > > >> of  hurricanes, we must all be "singing from the same sheet of
> > > >> music".
> > > >>
> > > >> 3. And lastly, since we are a prime tourist area, visiting as well
> > > >> new
> > > >> permanent hams should be easily incorporated to use and/or be be able
> > > >> to
> > > >> establish
> > > >> thir own SSIDs without conflict to a FADCA recommended state
> > > >> standard.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Final thought:
> > > >>
> > > >> If there is no FADCA state standard, why not?
> > > >>
> > > >> I would be willing to volunteer to help establish a standard. (Now
> > > >> there's
> > > >> an offer you
> > > >> don't hear often.) Yes, I know this would be difficult to accomplish
> > > >> since
> > > >> we already have established SSIDs that stations have been using.
> > > >> And,
> > > >> yes,  I
> > > >> already "know" the comment that "we shouldn't go changing things
> > > >> because
> > > >> many
> > > >> stations already now that such-and-such SSID means "this-or-that"
> > > >> and/or
> > > >> "we've  been using it for years".
> > > >>
> > > >> See, I told you in the beginning I had a "simple question".  Now
> > > >> what's
> > > >> the
> > > >> simple answer?  And, no, I don't want a long drawn out
> > > >> blah-blah,blah
> > > >> one.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thank you.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Always working toward a betterment of ham radio for 50 years as a
> > > >> licensed
> > > >> ham,
> > > >> with kindest regards,
> > > >> 73,
> > > >> Carl,AA4MI
> > > >> e-mail: _aa4mi at arrl.net_ (mailto:aa4mi at arrl.net)
> > > >
> > > > * * *
> > > >
> > > > It is likely there are APRS standards for what you need - FADCA does
> > > > not
> > > > coordinate APRS other than to not make assignments on APRS
> > > > frequencies.
> > > >
> > > > For EMCOMMs WL2K purposes:
> > > >
> > > > -10 has been generally adopted nationally for Telpac Nodes
> > > > -2 is what I've been recommending locally/FL for Paclink AGW ssid.
> > > > However, Paclink AGW will not respond to an incoming connect request
> > > > so
> > > > there is nothing sacrosanct about -2.
> > > >
> > > > For Layered Packet Networking:
> > > > We use 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 9 for DOS FPAC(and more perhaps for
> > > > LINUX FPAC),  but that only affects the owner of the ham call used for
> > > > the
> > > > FPAC switch and on the FPAC LAN frequency.   On the only ROSE switch I
> > > > manage 4/5 are used on the LAN.  This in no way keeps someone else
> > > > from
> > > > using those SSIDs on any frequency.
> > > >
> > > > -14 and -15 are tricky if there are TheNet, X1-J, etc nodes in the
> > > > path
> > > > as
> > > > some of those actually change the SSID of the station going through.
> > > > Still not a deal breaker for their use.
> > > >
> >
> > I know that many of these things have changed over the years, back when
> > we used ROSE switches we used every calll and SSID in order to handle all
> > of the ports in the stack. Under FPAC the ports are handled by address so
> > there are really only two calls that need to be clearly understood, they
> > are
> > the call used to connect TO the switch in order to issue commands to it or
> > "node hop" and the call which allows you to do a point to point connect
> > through
> > the network using the X.121 address of the distant switch. I was of the
> > understanding that we had sort of tried to settle on call-8 for the node
> > call
> > and call-9 for the switch/x.121 connect call.
> >
> > So on the kp4djt switch the node call is
> > kp4djt-8
> > and the switch/x.121 call is
> > kp4djt-9
> >
> > I have changed the Tampa switches to reflect accordingly as we used to
> > use the primary call as the NODE call with the -9 call as the switch call.
> >
> > Also call-10 as I understood it was to be reserved for TelPac.  I have set
> > up the telpac app on my switch as
> > kp4djt-10.
> >
> > Beyond that I am not sure what else that there is. On the switches here in
> > the Tampa area SSID's are used as quick connect calls to local BBS and
> > other facilities, so all you do is issue a connect to call-n where 'n' is
> > assigned in the switch as a quck connect to a facility local or remote.
> >
> > With the advent of the Linux FPAC switches we are no longer limited to the
> > first 6 SSID's of the switch call, it allows all 15 of them, and on top of
> > that
> > it allows for aliases, so to give a example a connect to TELPAC on the
> > 145.030 port will give you a connection to the TelPac app on the switch.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Chuck Hast
> >
> > Russell says....
> >
> > I am glad to see the ability to reduce the number of SSIDs with FPAC, and
> > that works wonders when you only have one FPAC with your call on it.  In
> > my
> > case, when I deploy the three that are needed, JAX, Orange Park and Penny
> > Farms, I can not use the convention of having -8 and -9 on all of them,
> > due
> > to the number that will have N4KOX as the call. In addition, there are
> > still
> > ROSE switches in operation where a separate SSID is still required.
> >
> > I also have 2 Telpac Gateways, so I can't use -10 on both, even if I could
> > use -10 on one (which I can't yet.)
>
> Where are they located? Perhaps you can. Are they going to be co-located
> with a fpac switch?
> >
> > My point was, a convention is good, but not always can be used.
> >
> > Rather than say, you must have -10 or -8 or -9, we should say, where you
> > can, "use a convention in setting up devices with SSIDs that follow the
> > convention. Where you can't, you can't and we will live with it."
> >
> Agree as there are many situations where the convention can not be followed.
>
> One thing to remember, the callsigns in the ax25 frames are the equivalent
> to
> the mac address on either net cards. As long as the mac addresses of devices
> are not seen in common by a common device you can have the same mac
> address on different cards, just that those two addresses can not be seen on
> the same segment. So you could re-use your callsign again with the same SSID
> as long as that ssid is not seen by other gear that sees the same ssid
> elsewhere.
> Really that is all the call is, a unique mac layer address and it must
> only be unique
> in order for the link layer devices to communicate correctly, go down the
> road a
> ways and re-use the call and ssid again.
>
> > While we are still crawling around the the Primodial Slime of
> > Communications, lets provide the references we have to give the users a
> > road
> > map to the new millenium.
> >
> > If we really had my druthers, You should not have to use anything but your
> > radio and computer (and user interface of a mike or keyboard and screen)
> > to
> > communicate.
> >
> > A digital station wanting to connect to a service or another station
> > should
> > only have to send C "Call" and not even have to worry about the X.121
> > address. A voice station would only need to enter the call of the intended
> > reciepant station (verbally, on a key pad or keyboard.)  The system should
> > know where "Call" is or was last heard and take care of it for you.
> >
> This is what the white pages does in FPAC, indeed I can connect to my FPAC
> switch and issue a connect to say f1hci like this:
>
> KP4DJT-8 (Commands = ?) : c f1hci
> Trying (fpac wp) F1HCI @ 2080,191601... Type <RETURN> to abort
> *** Connected to F1HCI @ 2080,191601 (Escape: ~. )
> Bonjour KP4DJT. Bienvenue sur le node F1HCI - 91 MASSY - JN18DR
>     (D)estinations - (L)inks - (MH)eard - (S)tats
>             (U)tilisateurs - (CONV)ers
> Taper help pour obtenir la liste complete des commandes.
> =>
> FPAC queries the wp database finds that f1hci is at  2080,191601 and sets
> up the connection for me. So that piece is already there for Linux FPAC. As
> we roll it out you will be able to exactly as you asked to do above.
>
> I tried to pull a link to a user station off of one of the fpac switches
> here
> in FL but can not reach any users.
>
>
> > If you want applications, like 411 or INFO or HEARD,  you would need to
> > tell
> > the system where or what area you want to know about, then use the X.121
> > address (or some Alpa representation of the X.121 address (like
> > Tallahassee,
> > Jacksonville, Orange Park, Orlando, Tampa, etc.)
> >
> There should be a way to do this, since the switch can now track calls and
> attempt to route the connection based on where the station was last heard.
>
> > In the case of a Telpac Gateway, you should be able to enter C Telpac on a
> > LAN frequency supported by the network and the system would know where
> > there
> > is an operational Telpac Gateway nearest to you or with the least amount
> > of
> > traffic and connect you to it as it really doesn't matter which Telpac
> > Gateway you use, they all go to the same place and perform the same
> > functions.
> >
> We do not have load balancing yet, but again the telpac app can be set up to
> accept a connect to that application regardless of the switch site.
>
>
> > In the final application you would not even need to know what frequency to
> > be on as your station should know where you are by GPS and your computer
> > would tell your all-band all-mode radio the frequency and mode to go to
> > where there is an operating "access" point you can reach based on your
> > latitude and longitude (Automatic Link Establishment.)
> >
> Do not even worry about gps, when you turn on the radio it does like all
> digital
> devices do today, it quickly looks for the best quality signal available it,
> and
> then tries to register with the network. If it is paid up the
> registration is successful.
>
> Each site should be able to send a UI frame that has both facilities
> and neighbor
> list so that as you move from tower to tower your device knows what
> they neighbors
> are and of course what channels to check so that it does not have to run
> through
> all channels. In the case of CDMA the whole system is on one channel anyhow
> so the handoff is somewhat different as you are going from one spreading
> code
> to another, and that is why CDMA handoffs are calls "soft handoffs" vs "hard
> handoffs" where the equipment has to jump to a new channel. TDMA does this
> and we are all familiar with those handoffs, as that is the point where you
> may
> get dropped. But your phone knows what the neighbors are and has already
> checked them out even before doing the actual handoff so it knows what
> channel to jump to when it is ready. That technology is now old but it is
> what
> we need to start looking at.
>
>
> > LINUX and the Internet can provide the infrastructure behind the antenna
> > of
> > fixed resources and software enhancements to interface with some of the
> > radios that are on the market today can do that for us....lets work in
> > that
> > direction.
> >
> I agree, and this is a place where we might be able to put some young hams
> to work, something that the young ham may find interesting as it is more in
> line with technology today.
>
> > Lets work toward having the infrastructure support communications as
> > automatically as it can, like the phone system, and not get hung up on
> > where
> > we are in the development. Everything is a journey to somewhere else.
> > Enjoy
> > the ride.  We are just one step above the hand crank telephone and
> > operator
> > supported manual connections.  We need to move from the "party line"
> > concept
> > of communications to the the new century so that our system works
> > seemlessly
> > like the cell phone system (is supposed to.)
> >
> Yes, you are correct, are are trying to bring a network into being
> that will handle
> more than just bbs/e-mail, soon it may be asked to handle digital audio and
> video, then we need to start thinking about how we can provide these
> facilities
> so that the users will be happy to help with the cost.
>
>
> --
> Chuck Hast
>
> To that, Russell Added....
>
> Bud, this is where our telephone conversation of high speed LAN in Inter LAN
> links of last week comes in...Chuck you provided the perfect intro...

Glad to be of some use.... B-)
>
> Chuck, anything at the Tampa Hamfest from the http://www.fab-corp.com/
> cooperation and do we have an on-going discussion with them about, Remasos
> ILB30-24 1 Watt 802.11b/g Outdoor Amp or the Luxul Shockwave POE 1 watt B &
> G Smart Amplifier?
>

No, they were not there. I tried to get them to come to the Tampa training
meeting to give a presentation but they backed out. I am not sure what is
going on, but almost seem to be avoiding us.

--
Chuck Hast
To paraphrase my flight instructor;
"the only dumb question is the one you DID NOT ask resulting in my going
out and having to identify your bits and pieces in the midst of torn
and twisted metal."