[FADCA] Fwd: Fw: [aprssig] Re: APRS broken

Sun, 21 Apr 2002 19:58:53 -0700 (PDT)

Rich, I am glad to see you have become involved in this
discussion. 

I am not sure you are getting all of the FADCA messages (if
you are, please forgive me for being redundent on part of
this message) so I am copying a note Bud Thompson, N0IA,
posted to the FADCA mail server today. It is on a related
subject:

"On Sun, 21 April 2002, "bud Thompson" wrote

> 
> Deltona
> Sunday April 21 1235EDT
> 
> RELATED TOPIC
> 
> We are working to have WL2K packet stations
(ham-to-internet e-mail) set up
> as "BBS" type nodes on the FPAC network. We are also alpha
testing SMS
> (Small Message System) direct from packet to WL2K internet
server through
> the FPAC network (to the nearest FPAC switch that has 24/7
intent
> connection.)
> 
> The WL2K connection supports the Airmail E-mail client
(terminal program) or
> conventional NEXUS ham to email and also runs on HF 24/7. 
The SMS system
> would be for keyboarding directly into the WL2K
CMBO/Server in Cleveland to
> keyboard in SP or e-mail  messages or pick up (RM)
messages.  The SMS system
> leads to having palm-pilot-level computers and small
packet radios/tncs in
> tactical opns keyboarding directly into the internet-based
WL2K ham-to-email
> system.  Eventually SMS should be able to take uploaded
file transfers as
> well as keyboard sending.
> 
> Along with this we have discussed asking Tom to provide
FPAC source code to
> the WL2K development team.  I am not sure John WB4MOZ has
sent that request
> to Tom yet.
> 
> 73,
> 
> bud Thompson
> 386 479 6538 -this week on cell phone.
>"

On a similar related subject, WB4APR, Bob has been doing
some work to integrate the APRS system and it's applications
to the use of the IRLP (Internet Repeater Linking Project)
to provide the IRLP user with the information that can be
carried by the ARPS IGATE system.

I see an opportunity for all of the systems, APRS,
FADCA/FPAC, IRLP and WL2K to combine thier indivdual
advantages and resources to develop an complete
communications system.

Each system has unique applications but they all provide
needed resources and infrastructure that, together, could
result in a more robust, dynamic and complete system
providing communications in more areas than they each
separately can provide today.

The fact that all four systems use the vast resources of the
internet, that they each use separate RF resources (no RF
interference) and can each be used to support the other (the
loss of one avenue to communicate would be mitigated by the
resources of the other systems (if the internet connection
was down for any participant, the FPAC network or the WL2K
or APRS HF systems can provide backup), provides us with an
opportunity to integrate them in a positive way. Out of this
can come better systems for each different user group, an
integrated communications system for emergencies and
disasters, and better support to our communities.

I suggest that we combine resources, efforts, and manpower
to acheive together a positive jump in the direction of our
common greater good.

I also suggest that we might change the topic heading to
"Integrated Voice and Data Communications."

Russ Oder, N4KOX.

On Sun, 21 April 2002, "Rich Garcia" wrote

> 
> I will join the list soon Bill.
> 
> Funny you should mention this since we were talking about
this about a week
> ago on the APRS sig. Maybe someone brought it over here
after seeing it. The
> guys to South of me have envisioned the "Cellular
Approach" for a long time
> but it has been a mess given what we have now, EVERYONE is
a WIDE! If we
> move to a backbone then small frequent digi's along with a
few central high
> altitude WIDE's would be euphoria. Bob WB4APR brought this
up on APRSIG
> again not long ago, that is why I am CC'ing him.
> 
> Back in the early 90's (probably 92-94) I spoke with Tom
quite a bit about
> adding APRS capabilities to ROSE. Two features were added
if my memory
> serves me correctly, UI digipeating and a BTEXT fucntion
so that
> the stack's position could be beaconed out in a APRS
format. I believe soon
> after Tom had a child, moved out of the state and the ROSE
code became a bit
> dormant and the subject was dropped. I have never heard on
the status of
> ROSE code since then or if Tom W2VY is back in the game.
> 
> As far as Igates, I don't quite understand. You can have
many people act as
> Igates in one area and have it still work since a Igate
should only RX on 2M
> or HF and send to the internet. Never except in VERY
special circumstances
> should one go from the Internet to RF and in those cases
just a few stations
> would be ported. Sending everything out over RF will bring
a 1200 baud
> channel to a halt! The internet can handle dupes quite
well and I would like
> to see 2 Igates in every area eventually in case one
crashes, the broadband
> connection is lost, or if work is being done to one of the
stations, the
> other one will still do the feed. Some Igate programs
allow the selective
> porting of stations from the Internet to RF, others allow
you to do all or
> NONE. I do not believe the ALL feature should even be
present, it can be
> abused by well meaning people.
> 
> APRS does work over a TCP IP connection and that is how
the Internet Gate
> works using hubs. I am sure we can make our own INTRASTATE
LAN with little
> work. I am currently learning Linux which should make
things very easy but I
> don't know how long it will take me to get to speed. Just
as I connect to
> www.ahubeast.net for my feed from West Palm Beach to the
Internet we can
> possibly set up a www.ahubfl.net where all the FL regions
will connect. In
> this case since we are only talking FL traffic we would
then ENABLE the
> TCP/IP to RF feature. We would also need to limit
connections to authorized
> stations since we will all be set up to send IP to RF, one
yahoo connecting
> a hub feed to ours would lock up 144.39 or the UHF channel
till' the watch
> dog clocks out and lock it up.
> 
> Changing the APRS code will be very difficult at this
point in time. You are
> talking about what we call the APRSpec and their is a list
devoted just to
> this subject. APRS code has been around since 1990 and
there are 7
> widespread APRS programs in use now from every platform be
it Palm OS to
> Linux not to mention many other special and niche'
programs. The changing of
> the code I do not foresee happening, this has evolved way
past that point
> and would require a exhaustive amount of programming not
just by one person
> but possibly dozens! BUT what can happen is the ADDITION
of code to the
> program to support this, as with everything some will pick
it up sooner than
> others and we can't force it on the APRSpec but people can
migrate over
> eventually.
> 
> I was one of the first to envision the use of ROSE and
APRS but without the
> support and backing of enough people it died out. That was
close to 10 years
> ago when I went to meetings and demonstrated APRS to
people who said "APR
> what ?, why" (Sound familiar Bill?). I think we have
finally evolved into a
> majority now and the time may be right.If this progresses
I would recommend
> someone involved with the project to join the TAPR APRSpec
mailing list. Be
> forewarned, there is much controversy on the subject since
some feel the
> "spec" has not been followed and that it is a "click" in
itself but that is
> the place to bring changes like this up since all the
authors of the various
> APRS programs should be on that list.
> 
> OK, now I scrolled all the way to the bottom..Duhhh it was
my message that
> spurred this. The mailing list address is
> [email protected]. You can subscribe to the list if you like
from the Mailing
> List Web page on TAPR.
> 
> Rich Garcia K4GPS
> http://www.map.findu.com/k4pgs
> Jupiter Farms Florida
> http://www.jupiterfarmscert.org
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: n4xeo [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 11:47 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [FADCA] Fwd: Fw: [aprssig] Re: APRS broken
> 
> 
> At 07:41 AM 4/21/2002 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> Hi All
> 
> I have also sent this to Rich so he can comment on it.
Rich you might want
> to join the fadca reflector to see all replies. If you
need help let me
> know.
> 
> >http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/fadca
> 
> We had Tom working on the FPAC code to allow the passage
of aprs across the
> fpac network (old rose). The work was stopped when we
couldn't get the aprs
> folks to change their code to allow for the use of routing
across the
> backbone. There has to be some kind of controlled access
to the system so
> there wouldn't be so much traffic that it slows down the
network. My
> thoughts would be to have the major cities or areas able
to connect or
> something like that to keep 10,000 packets just being
repeated over and
> over. The major hubs in a area can hear everything and
they would be the
> only ones that would need to make the connections in the
area. Kind of like
> the igates....You wouldn't want EVERYONE to run a Igate..
> 
> I haven't talked with anyone in a while about the fpac
code, but the last I
> remember was that the feature was added but not tested.
This is where the
> APR folks come in.
> 
> Rich,
> If you can get some kind of code change to make it work
over a network then
> we can see how our code changes might or might not work.
> 
> Again from what I remember FADCA has welcomed this concept
but there has
> been NO talking about it...
> 
> I'll leave it here and see where this goes.
> 
> Bill N4XEO
> 
> 
> >Bill Gutherie sent me this. Thanks, Bill.
> >
> >I was out of town and put off reading the note until I
had a
> >few minutes to digest what it was all about.  We have two
> >UHF frequencies set aside for APRS networking in Florida.
We
> >also have a growing implemtation of FPAC and (finally) we
> >are working on upgrading our network links to 9.6 in North
> >East Florida between Jax and DAB.
> >
> >
> >What do you think? I don't have the addresses of the
Florida
> >APRS group but we do have some of thier devices in the
> >database.
> >
> >Some of their supporters have highspeed internet
> >connections.  We need to combine resources and
> >infrastructure, can we do it?
> >
> >Russ
> >
> >------- Start of forwarded message -------
> >
> >Subject: Fw: [aprssig] Re: APRS broken
> >From: "Bill Guthrie" <[email protected]>
> >Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:26:27 -0400
> >To: "Russell Oder" <[email protected]>
> >
> >Hello:
> >
> >I picked this up off the APRS Email Sig. I thought it very
> >interesting.
> >
> >Bill
> >KC4OUA
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Rich Garcia" <[email protected]>
> >To: "TAPR APRS Special Interest Group"
> ><[email protected]>
> >Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 3:24 PM
> >Subject: [aprssig] Re: APRS broken
> >
> >
> > > This is something that I had brought up MANY years ago
but
> >was dropped. I
> > > have long thought of APRS needing a backbone and even
> >tried stirring
> > > interest in the mid 90's for one reason, coverage. By
> >using a backbone
> > > system we could employ as has been mentioned beams,
high
> >power, and other
> > > bands (heck even a old analog MW spur)to link WIDE
digi's
> >over long
> > > distances.
> > >
> > > I spoke at great length with Tom Molton W2VY the
author of
> >ROSE about this
> > > and some APRS code was actually written for ROSE
switches
> >(the BTEXT and
> >UI
> > > Digipeating capability)but soon after Tom moved,
changed
> >jobs and I think
> > > dropped the ROSE project entirely. I am not sure who is
> >responsible for
> >the
> > > code right now, I think it may be a club in Tampa.
> > >
> > > Yes it would be expensive to build a whole backbone
> >network but not if we
> > > would try to make use of ROSE nodes that are already
out
> >there and
> >possibly
> > > gathering dust. Regular packet has died quite a bit in
> >some areas but not
> > > all. A 144.39 port could be added at existing ROSE
switch
> >sites and use
> >the
> > > EXISTING backbone network. Florida had/has quite a bit
of
> >ROSE and some
> >WIDE
> > > sites also have ROSE already there, it is just a
matter of
> >the software.
> > >
> > > Last conversation with Tom W2VY was how we would do
> >addressing to have the
> > > APRS packet exit out the proper port at it's final
> >location using the
> > > current APRS protocol without modification. This was in
> >93' or 94' maybe
> >it
> > > is time to look into this possibility again.
> > >
> > > In a topography like we have in FL where high for us
is a
> >1K foot tower
> >and
> > > population density is in pockets along the 2 coasts
with
> >little but swamp
> > > and gators in-between we need long paths. Areas now
split
> >like Miami and
> > > Orlando, or West Palm and Tampa can usually only
converse
> >via the Igate or
> >a
> > > band opening. A backbone could possibly resolve this
issue.
> > >
> > > Rich K4GPS
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected]
> > > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf
Of
> >Guy Story,
> > > KC5GOI
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 1:31 PM
> > > To: TAPR APRS Special Interest Group
> > > Subject: [aprssig] Re: APRS broken
> > >
> > >
> > > I am seeing simular issues in the DFW area with channel
> >saturation.  A
> > > backbone idea has been crawling about the back of my
mind
> >too.  TexNet
> >does
> > > a
> > > very simular thing, so does ROSE.  The cost to build a
> >backbone will not
> >be
> > > trivial though.
> > >
> > > Why has this issue popped up?  IMHO several reasons. 
1)
> >Improper useage
> >of
> > > unproto paths is still serious. 2) Beacon rates too
often
> >for fixed
> >stations
> > > and mobile stations not moving.  3) txdelay to long is
> >sometimes an issue.
> > > 4)
> > > generic digipeat paths on WIDES and RELAYS.  I have
seen
> >many a digi with
> > > WIDE4-4 instead of specific paths.  5) KPC3 ver 8.2
does
> >have a bug that
> > > does
> > > not always prevent the duplicate packets (this is not
as
> >severe).
> > >
> > > There may be other reasons I am missing, but things are
> >getting very
> >crowded
> > > in some areas.
> > >
> > > 73
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wednesday 17 April 2002 11:25 am, Alan Heaberlin
wrote:
> > > > > Subject: APRS High-Site BACKBONES
> > > > > From: Bob Bruninga <[email protected]>
> > > > > Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 20:31:40 -0400 (EDT)
> > > > > X-Message-Number: 42
> > > > >
> > > > > APRS is completely broken in many high populatrion
> >areas.  We must
> >move
> > > > > on past the "single-high-site-digi" 1995 APRS
concept.
> >  I posted this
> > > > > before, but here it is again.  I also put this on a
> >WEB page:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/backbone.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > BACKBONE DIGIS
> > > WB4APR
> > >
> > > ---
> > > You are currently subscribed to aprssig as:
> >[email protected]
> > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> >[email protected]
> > > Questions regarding the SIG go to the SIG
administrator:
> >[email protected]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > You are currently subscribed to aprssig as:
> >[email protected]
> > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> >[email protected]
> > > Questions regarding the SIG go to the SIG
administrator:
> >[email protected]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >------- End of forwarded message -------
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >FADCA mailing list
> >[email protected]
> >http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/fadca
> 
> 73, Bill N4XEO
> 
> E- Mail mailto: [email protected]
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> 
> 
> 
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