[Elecraft] K3/RigExpert TI-5

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Don,

> In two cases in the last two days, we have encountered "problems" on
> this reflector where the user of an external interface box had
> problems because the audio levels presented to the K3 were at
> microphone level instead of line level - simply because the interface
> box manufacturer did not consider that any transceiver would be using
> line level inputs.

In both cases the device was not a microHAM product *BUT* in both
cases the solution was in the device's User Manual as both products
had internal jumpers that allowed the signal level to be compatible
with the "Line In" requirements of the K3.  It was *not* a device
problem but one of documentation or failure of the user to read the
manual (I can't say which).

Fortunately, microHAM have designed their products in such a way
that setting the front panel "TX" level control to 12:00 and the
soundcard "speaker" level to 80% provides an output that is correct
for the "line input" of the K3 (with Line In at 30 - 35) as well as
the "line" inputs of most YaeComWood transceivers when their mic
gain controls are at a normal SSB level.  In addition, the user
manuals contain extensive, step by step instructions for setting
and optimizing levels for both Windows 2000/XP and Vista/Windows 7.

> Your Microham interface boxes may give consideration to line level
> input (I don't know one way or the other), but many do not even
> consider anything other than mic level input. I am not targeting the
> Microham products, but am simply indicating that many digital
> interface boxes do not consider line level audio input to the
> transceiver.

microHAM's interfaces have *always* provided separate outputs for
mic and Line (microKEYER, microKEYER II) or proper "line level"
outputs (USB Interface II, USB Interface III, DigiKeyer, Digikeyer
II).  In fact, unlike most other products, the "line level" outputs
are capable of nearly 4V P-P (+6 dB) for those transceivers that
require that level of drive for their "line" inputs.  In any case,
all of the "well known" interfaces that include a sound card also
appear to have provision for a "reasonable" "line in" signal - at
least at a level compatible with the "line in" on most consumer
electronics even if their manuals may not be completely clear in
the matter.

While I am not being critical ... you must also realize that the
level setting instructions for the K3 are not the most obvious
or well documented.  Using an "ALC" scale for both an input level
and "RF reduction" function is a foreign concept for most users -
particularly when software authors have said for years to turn
the transceiver "Power out" control to the maximum and adjust the
"mic gain" (or soundcard output) for the desired output level!

> Again with the KISS principle, the more functions that are placed in
> the interface box, the more complex the entire station operation
> becomes. Once properly set up, it can be a benefit, but for those who
> are initially venturing into digital modes, the variety of setup
> tools and menus for a particular interface box can be overwhelming.

That is certainly not the case when the interface has a suitable
Users Manual.  However, when a user is faced with both a new
interface and a transceiver that behaves differently than any other
transceiver on the market, it is easy for the user to become confused.
Telling a user that is confused due to the different paradigm of the
K3 to abandon their digital interface does nobody any good ... the
user is still confused and still can't make their digital software
function properly.  Once they understand the input requirements and
adjustments for the K3, the interface is no longer the issue.

> This is not a K3 problem. Set things up using the simplest
> connections possible, and determine that the K3 works.

It is most certainly a "K3 problem" if the user does not understand
how the K3 works and how to properly set levels.  Again, if the user
is able to understand the unique characteristics of the K3, he will
be able to understand what is happening and the interface - whether
is be a "simple" stereo audio cable or an advanced multi-function
interface - will be moot.  While there may have been two users in
the past week who have had problems setting up third party interfaces,
there have been as many or more users with problems setting up the
"stereo audio cable" over the last several months.

It's not a matter of implying that the K3 doesn't work - we all know
that it works well.  It is a matter that the K3 works differently
than other transceivers and the user needs to understand those
differences, not be told to use a different interface ... or would
you rather those who make interfaces tell users who come to them
with K3 problems be told "use a different transceiver that operates
properly"?

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV

On 1/9/2011 8:56 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Joe,
>
> My apologies to your products, but I have been a long and strong
> believer in the KISS principle. "Keep It Simple Stupid". Yes, there are
> accessories that make things more usable, but at the expense of
> simplicity. Every device added to the combination of things to put a
> signal on the air adds to the complexity of the entire setup. And that
> added complexity adds to the number of devices that can fail, and adds
> exponentially to the number of setup combinations that are possible -
> some combinations will work, others will almost work, and a lot of other
> combinations result in requests for help here on the Elecraft reflector.
> None of those combinations are a K3 problem, but are a result of the
> complexity of the various components in the users station setup.
>
> Since the K3 does support digital modes direct from a computer
> soundcard, it would be prudent IMHO for users to try that combination
> first before committing to the extra features afforded by an external
> interface box.
>
> In two cases in the last two days, we have encountered "problems" on
> this reflector where the user of an external interface box had problems
> because the audio levels presented to the K3 were at microphone level
> instead of line level - simply because the interface box manufacturer
> did not consider that any transceiver would be using line level inputs.
> Your Microham interface boxes may give consideration to line level input
> (I don't know one way or the other), but many do not even consider
> anything other than mic level input. I am not targeting the Microham
> products, but am simply indicating that many digital interface boxes do
> not consider line level audio input to the transceiver.
>
> Again with the KISS principle, the more functions that are placed in the
> interface box, the more complex the entire station operation becomes.
> Once properly set up, it can be a benefit, but for those who are
> initially venturing into digital modes, the variety of setup tools and
> menus for a particular interface box can be overwhelming. This is not a
> K3 problem. Set things up using the simplest connections possible, and
> determine that the K3 works. Then add the interface box - if it does not
> work, then it should be obvious that some setup parameter for the
> interface box is the problem and the user should direct his questions to
> the interface box reflector and not bring implications that the K3 is
> faulty.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 1/9/2011 8:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>
>>> In other words (for those using a K3), an additional soundcard may be
>>> a better solution than one of the "Digital Interface" boxes.
>>
>> That depends entirely on the feature set the user needs.
>>
>> 1) The K3 can not switch between soundcard input and microphone
>> input based on PTT source to support DVK from logging software
>> 2) The K3 can not automatically control band switching in an Icom
>> PW-1 or other CI-V compatible accessories.
>> 3) The K3 does not have a keyer compatible with the three major
>> contest loggers and several major "day to day" loggers.
>>
>> I'm sure I can come up with two or three more features if pressed.
>> In any case, dismissing the "digital interfaces" rather than helping
>> K3 users make their equipment coexist properly is rather short
>> sighted.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe Subich, W4TV
>> microHAM America, LLC.
>> http://www.microHAM-USA.com
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microHAM
>>
>>
>> On 1/9/2011 7:29 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> Bob,
>>>
>>> Your assertion that one does not have to use the normal computer
>>> soundcard is well received. BUT there is no need to use one of the
>>> "Digital Interfaces" just to get the soundcard function. There are
>>> plenty of external soundcards available at less cost than the digital
>>> interfaces, and for those with desktop computers, adding an internal
>>> soundcard (in addition to the normal Windows soundcard) is an easy thing
>>> to do. Most applications will let you select which soundcard should be
>>> used.
>>>
>>> In other words (for those using a K3), an additional soundcard may be a
>>> better solution than one of the "Digital Interface" boxes.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> On 1/9/2011 6:59 PM, Bob Naumann wrote:
>>>> The TI-5 has a USB sound card in it. The idea is so you don't have to
>>>> interfere with your "normal" computer's sound card.
>>>>
>>>> I have a TI-5 and it works nicely - although I do FSK RTTY so the
>>>> transmit
>>>> levels are not something I have to mess with.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>>
>>>> Bob W5OV
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>>>> [mailto:elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tony Estep
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:50 PM
>>>> To: Elecraft
>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3/RigExpert TI-5
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Don Wilhelm<w3fpr at embarqmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ...With the K3, no digital interface is required...everything needed
>>>>> built-in, no need for a separate interface box.
>>>>>
>>>> What Don said. Start out by hooking the K3 straight to the computer (3
>>>> cables: serial, audio in, audio out) and get it working that way. It
>>>> will do
>>>> all digital modes, SSB, CW, and everything else without an
>>>> interface. Then
>>>> you will know everything works and can adjust levels, etc. After
>>>> that you
>>>> can insert an interface if for some reason you need one.
>>>>
>>>> Tony KT0NY
>>
>