[Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3

Fri May 21 11:15:43 EDT 2010

You list items where the processing is PC-based, and the devices blend
with consumer applicaitons.

Beyond that are industrial devices with embedded robotics in
applications where software absolutely cannot be changed based on
anything other than that company's own internal needs, the world of
IBM and Unix mainframes, of devices that are expected to have
decades-long investment lives, and such things as exposing one's
company to externally imposed OS device protocol changes requiring
matching internal coding and debugging to stay working, is a
career-ending mistake.  This is an environment where the OS is
required to support 20 year old code without imposed changes, and the
equivalent of CTL-ALT-DELETE to fix an unrepaired problem in the OS
can take a factory off-line for an hour or more resulting in hundreds
of thousands of dollars, or even millions, in loss per hour.  This is
not the world of the mass consumer/Microsoft paradigm where is "old"
always "bad" because they want to sell you something new.  This is the
world where you will find x86 processors running on specialty
motherboards, and STILL running OS/2.

You're entitled to your preferences, for sure, but I hope that I don't
have your preferences imposed on me :>).

73, Guy.

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Phil Hystad <phystad at mac.com> wrote:
> With the exception of ham radio, I seriously doubt that I could find and buy
> a device that needs RS232.  I understand that there might be a device that
> supports RS232 for some old equipment needs.  Or, even devices, as the
> cited example that for some reason continues to use RS232.  And, I can
> understand some of those reasons from technical perspective but I don't
> think this is relevant to the issue with ham radio or to all the other devices
> that we (in this ham radio community) belong to.  In my opinion, the only
> argument for ham radio having RS232 is because there are still old
> computers out there that do not support USB and the ham radio community
> is playing to that crowd.  Personally, I think this is a mistake because you
> don't see other kinds of devices making that sacrifice.
>
> And, by devices that I might buy, let me categorize them a bit.  They
> fall into classes such as: audio devices such as speakers or microphones,
> card interfaces such as smart cards, memory sticks, biometric readers,
> and even my Fluke DVM, or various communication devices such as a
> modem or a speakerphone, or how about keyboards, joysticks, drawing
> tablets, other mass storage such as hard drives, CD drives, digital
> camera interfaces, and media players, or then there are printers of
> all various kinds, and digital camcorders, webcams, so on and so forth.
>
> This is all quite the industry and they are all USB and I doubt that I
> could buy a device of the kinds I mention here and have it not be
> implicitly USB  (new that is, since I agree old stuff exists that uses RS232).
>
> The cited example (below) is nice but I have no need to buy a scale and
> plug it into my computer.  However, if I did, I bet that I would find one
> that is USB.
>
> About device drivers -- by the way, on my Mac computer, I don't think
> I would need a device driver for any of the devices that I mention
> above.  I have not tried them all but I do know that the exposed USB I/O
> interface supports them so that you can write ordinary non-kernel
> applications that interface to them without the need of a custom
> driver (which I call a program that runs in kernel mode and must
> be installed separately from the application).
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
> On May 21, 2010, at 7:16 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>
>> Well, just as a single example, for bench scales which are connected
>> to a data processing device, see
>>
>> http://www.scalesgalore.com/pindustry.htm
>>
>> For those scales which have remoting as standard or an option, *some*
>> of them have optional USB, but ALL remotables have RS232.
>>
>> RS232 very much alive in general industry.
>>
>> 73, Guy.
>>
>> On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hystad <phystad at mac.com> wrote:
>>> Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232.  Maybe
>>>
>>> there's a reason?
>>>
>>> This is a very surprising statement.  The only RS232 interfaces I see
>>> lingering around are from the ham radio community.  So, do you mean
>>> the ham radio "industry"?
>>> And, I know that I have lived in the Apple Mac world for a long time but I
>>> am finding it hard to understand why USB requires custom device drivers
>>> on Windows.  I know that I do not need that on my Mac computer.  The
>>> only time I have ever needed to install a custom driver for USB is because
>>> of the ham radio RS232 interface needs.
>>>
>>> On May 21, 2010, at 6:57 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>>>
>>> As we move forward with OS versions, Don touches on a difference, that
>>> RS232 does not need a driver.  Let it also be understood, that
>>> Microsoft does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT supply USB device drivers, BY
>>> DESIGN.  A virtual RS232 port that appears in the hardware listing and
>>> surfaces in a real RS232 on the other side of some converter is a USER
>>> device.  This was a flexibility wanted by the industry to sell new
>>> gadgets, code stuff when the they (not Microsoft) wanted to, and not
>>> have to bother with waiting for Microsoft to integrate it.
>>>
>>> As a courtesy Microsoft distributes "certified" drivers via their
>>> updates. But MS does not support them.
>>>
>>> The responsibility for keeping USB device drivers functioning in spite
>>> of operating system changes, resides with the programmers of user
>>> software and USB devices.  Whether one agrees with that division is up
>>> for debate, but whether that's the way it is now, for good or bad, is
>>> a fact.  What is also apparent, is that the makers and programmers of
>>> such devices are all for the new sales, but not so interested in
>>> maintenance once the big bux have been raked in.  Are you surprised?
>>>
>>> Once a USB port device is implanted in a K3, Elecraft becomes slave to
>>> all the OS issues, many still unresolved, especially with W7 64 bit,
>>> and will be responsible for keeping up with all the OS changes
>>> affecting USB to RS232. The popular ham programs are still expecting
>>> RS232, whether real or virtual. My question is why on earth would
>>> anyone want to stick their foot into that bear trap, and then spend
>>> the next decade dragging that chain around.
>>>
>>> USB is law of the jungle, with order just barely being maintained.
>>> Drivers will get tested for the big bux, high volume stuff, and
>>> ignored for everything else, unless there is someone like Microham,
>>> who depends on them, who will bite, bitch, annoy, bash and
>>> continuously robo-call a chip maker until they come up with a fix for
>>> something in a driver that's screwing them to the wall.
>>>
>>> That's really a swamp.  You sure you really want to go with devices
>>> embedded in the K3?  At least USB/RS232 converter cords have larger
>>> separate audiences, whose larger volume will get some testing. AND if
>>> they finally refuse to upgrade, you can toss it and go get someone
>>> else's version and try again.  How do you do that if the device is
>>> embedded in the K3?  Just gonna trust that there's still a programmer
>>> assigned long term in some chip company to deal with keeping up with
>>> the OS, trust that they're gonna stay in business. Wanna pay for the
>>> keep up with Microsoft cost embedded in anything you buy from
>>> Elecraft?
>>>
>>> Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232.  Maybe
>>> there's a reason?
>>>
>>> Careful what you wish for.
>>>
>>> 73, Guy
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Don Wilhelm <w3fpr at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Those making a mod of that nature to a K2 (or any other radio) take on a
>>>
>>> new responsibility.
>>>
>>> If anyone makes such a change and subsequently sells their K3, I would
>>>
>>> hope that the sale would include a CD with the latest drivers for any OS
>>>
>>> that could possibly be used with the K3.
>>>
>>> Plain RS-232 does not need drivers - USB does, and those drivers are OS
>>>
>>> dependent and OS level dependent.
>>>
>>> When you are working out in the field with your laptop and your USB K3,
>>>
>>> internet access to download new drivers may not be available.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> Allan G Duncan wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't wish to re-ignite the RS232 vs USB connectivity debates which have
>>>
>>> regularly appeared on the reflector
>>>
>>> but some K3 owners may be interested in this product recently launched by
>>>
>>> FTDI.
>>>
>>> http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_DB9-USB-RS232.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>
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