[Boatanchors] ESR/Leakage
Al Parker
anchor at ec.rr.com
Fri Dec 5 10:19:21 EST 2008
Hi Eugene,
The basic difference is that the leakage measurement is at DC, it shows
the DC resistance of teh cap, and thus teh current that flows thru it at a
specific voltage. The ESR (Equivalent (or Effective?) Series Resistance) is
measured at an AC frequency, 100 kc or so, and shows the resistance of the
cap at that freq. Think of a decoupling cap's job, to shunt the AC
component of a DC voltage to ground. The lower the ESR, the better. At
least that's the way I picture it. I suppose it's possible that there can
be too much leakage (bad) at DC even when ESR shows low (good). And, as has
been pointed out, low DC resistance (shorted) will appear good on ESR (but
very bad on leakage). So sometimes it's good to have more than one way of
measurement to determine "good".
Here's a URL that might explain things a bit:
http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/esr.htm
Garey convinced me 5-6 yrs ago that ESR was a very useful tool. Thanks
for the eyeball chat & demo, Garey. I use mine often, just as he pointed
out a few days ago.
73,
Al, W8UT
New Bern, NC
www.boatanchors.org
www.hammarlund.info
"there is nothing -absolutely nothing- half as much worth doing as simply
messing about in boats."
Ratty, to Mole
----- Original Message -----
From: <eugene at hertzmail.com>
To: <bonddaleena at aol.com>; <boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:10 AM
Subject: [Boatanchors] ESR/Leakage
Ron, what is your experience in the value (or lack thereof) of a
"leakage" tester vs. esr tester? I have a sencore LC53 which measures
leakage. Is this less useful a measure than ESR? How exactly do they
differ?
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
bonddaleena at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:17 PM
To: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Boatanchors] Re: Boatanchors Digest, Vol 59, Issue 5, ESR,and
cap 'values'.........
Gee, a subject near and dear to my heart. I learned the hard way (aka:
EXPENSIVE), about ESR and Coupling and By-Pass caps. The Editor of
Electric Radio Mag has asked me for a year to write about my
'experiences'. I first learned about cap failure rates while doing
Failure Analysis for IBM. It became real obvious that these things do
NOT "live long and prosper"!!
First, the very subject of Coupling and By-Pass caps most often turns
into a 'flaming war'. Gee, if you don't want to change them, FINE.
Second, ESR... This gets complicated.... I have several ESR meters. The
best, is a small device made in England by PEAK, called an Atlas ESR
Meter.
One problem measuring ESR (as was already mentioned), is that a shorted
electrolytic will indicate 'good' on some meters. That's just a
function of an excellent cap having VERY low "Equivalent Series
Resistance"..... The PEAK helps you through this.... One other ESR
meter I have, does indeed have a DVM with a short indicator (beep), in
parallel with the analog ESR meter, since it becomes almost impossible
to gauge 'good/bad' on a low resolving analog meter..
Lastly, I have a plethora (gee, always wanted to use that word!!), of
Capacitor BRIDGES, some of which are NIST Traceable: Boonton, Leader,
Sprague, B&K, etc..... My favorite, is a combination of a VERY old VTVM
and an equally old Heathkit Cap Checker, which I use ONLY for the
P/S....
I have BUCKETS of old caps (wax, BBODs, Brown Tur*s, etc), that will
pass the most sophisticated tester, when looking for VALUE. They will
indicate EXACTLY the marked value, but the cap may 'leak' 500+ VDC when
tested at rated voltage, (in this case 600 VDC).
I have been through a ton (literally!!) of boatanchors and Test
Equipment, with 'old' caps, and replacing said components will improve
equipment more than you can imagine!
And YES, NOS Electrolytics that have been sitting on a shelf for 40
years are usually NFG!. Modern replacements are orders of magnitude
better!! It's very easy to series/parallel discrete values to replace
that old 'can'. Put them under chassis, if you want that 'original
look'.....Actually 'using' the cap, is much better than letting it sit.
Remember the old saying: "if ya don't use it, ya lose it"? It is very,
very true (at least for electrolytic).. ha ha
tnx fer the time,
ron
N4UE
-----Original Message-----
From: boatanchors-request at mailman.qth.net
To: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
Sent: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 4:01 am
Subject: Boatanchors Digest, Vol 59, Issue 5
Send Boatanchors mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ?? (Garey Barrell)
2. RE: ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ?? (Dave Harmon)
3. Remember Halli Special Event This Weekend! (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
4. Re: ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ?? (Garey Barrell)
5. RE: ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ?? (Dave Harmon)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:04:45 -0500
From: Garey Barrell <k4oah at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ??
To: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <493748CD.6090900 at mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Dick -
Generally speaking, bad is _BAD_ , i.e., either a cap will read
fractional ohms for most caps, certainly less than 2-3 ohms. Bad caps
will read hundreds of ohms or more depending upon the rest of the
circuit. I don't think I've ever seen one over 3-4 ohms that wasn't BAD.
73, Garey - K4OAH
Glen Allen, VA
Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line & TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs
<www.k4oah.com>
Richard W. Solomon wrote:
> I have one of the Dick Smith ESR meters. Nice device, but I
> wish I could find more info on analyzing the test results.
>
> For example, I test a 470 mfd @ 50 vdc cap. The meter reads
> 0.15, the chart on the meter says 0.09. How bad is bad ??
>
>
> Thanks for any tips,
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:21:29 -0600
From: "Dave Harmon" <k6xyz at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Boatanchors] ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ??
To: <k4oah at mindspring.com>, <boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <7ECF6E72D018472C8829CD2C3BF1F4D8 at skunkputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Interesting....I have one of those Dick Smith meters too and in the
course
of using it I was scratching my head when 47 year old electrolytics I
removed from several Collins 516F-2's were testing good on the meter
but the
pop-tops were blown open and they stunk indicating that the electrolyte
had
left town years before....mebby decades.
I replaced the caps anyway of course but perhaps this meter would be
best
used on smaller caps like what would be used on today's electronics
instead
of boatanchors.
Regards
Dave Harmon
CCA 97-535
Midwestern Collins
K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net
Sperry, Ok.
-----Original Message-----
From: boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Garey Barrell
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:05 PM
To: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ??
Dick -
Generally speaking, bad is _BAD_ , i.e., either a cap will read
fractional ohms for most caps, certainly less than 2-3 ohms. Bad caps
will read hundreds of ohms or more depending upon the rest of the
circuit. I don't think I've ever seen one over 3-4 ohms that wasn't BAD.
73, Garey - K4OAH
Glen Allen, VA
Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line & TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs
<www.k4oah.com>
Richard W. Solomon wrote:
> I have one of the Dick Smith ESR meters. Nice device, but I
> wish I could find more info on analyzing the test results.
>
> For example, I test a 470 mfd @ 50 vdc cap. The meter reads
> 0.15, the chart on the meter says 0.09. How bad is bad ??
>
>
> Thanks for any tips,
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
>
_______________________________________________
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:22:23 -0500
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer at usol.com>
Subject: [Boatanchors] Remember Halli Special Event This Weekend!
To: <boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <006001c955bf$b97951a0$cfea1240 at hpdc5100mt>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hello All,
Please mark your calendars for Saturday December 6th and Sunday December
7th! Myself and others will be hosting a very Halligan Happy Birthday
Bill
special event to commemorate his 110th birthday. Actually it is Monday
December 8, 1898, but since some of us actually have to work for a
living,
we are doing it over the weekend.
The Saturday 40 meter portion will be on 7.280 MHZ lsb +/- from 10:00
AM EST
until 3:00 PM EST. (1500 UTC until 2000 UTC).
There will also be some AM operating! I will post the times and
frequencies
tomorrow!
There will be 20 meter activity on Sunday on 14.293 MHZ usb +/- from
10:30
AM EST until 5:30 PM EST. (1530 UTC until 2230 UTC)
Because the Vintage SSB Net commences at 3:00 PM EST, (2000 UTC) the
Special
Event will change frequencies for the last 2.5 hours of the event! I
will
announce this frequency on Friday December 5th.
There will also be some AM operating on Sunday. I will post the times
and
frequencies tomorrow. For the moment it looks like forty meters only.
Anybody want to run AM on 75/80 Meters?
I thought we had someone operating on 15 meters, but so far, no
commitment.
Anyone want to run a few hours either Saturday or Sunday, or both, on 15
meters?
A special QSL card is being designed for the Happy Birthday Halligan
event.
It will show the callsign of "W9WZE".
If 'you' would like to help, let me know! I am hoping to hear many of
you
over the weekend. So stop by and wish Bill a Happy Halli Birthday!
Duane Fischer, W8DBF - WPE8CXO
E-Mail: dfischer at usol.com
Hallicrafters web site: www.w9wze.net
HHRP web site: hhrp.w9wze.net
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:02:00 -0500
From: Garey Barrell <k4oah at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ??
To: Boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <49375638.9010805 at mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Dave -
Wow! Are you sure they weren't shorted!?? :-) That's the only way I
can think of for a dried out cap to read low ESR. In fact I think they
recommend using the ESR meter in parallel with an ohmmeter to catch
shorted caps for just that reason.
That's the only "misleading" readings I've gotten, where a cap is
shorted and reads nice and low. The meter uses a roughly 100 kHz pulse,
and the only caps I've seen read higher are very low voltage units
where
there was enough inductance to "lose" the pulse. Caps less than 10 uF
tend to have higher ESRs than larger ones, but still less than 10-15
ohms. It should work fine on anything over 1 uFd.
It's the second piece of test equipment I grab with a "new" piece of
gear. Right after I check to see what some numbskull might have stuck
in the fuse-holder instead of the correct fuse! I've found everything
from the right fuse to one wrapped in aluminum foil to a piece of # 6
copper wire cut to length!
I guess it's like any other piece of test equipment, if the results
don't look "right", retest using another method.
73, Garey - K4OAH
Glen Allen, VA
Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line & TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs
<www.k4oah.com>
Dave Harmon wrote:
> Interesting....I have one of those Dick Smith meters too and in the
course
> of using it I was scratching my head when 47 year old electrolytics I
> removed from several Collins 516F-2's were testing good on the meter
but the
> pop-tops were blown open and they stunk indicating that the
electrolyte had
> left town years before....mebby decades.
> I replaced the caps anyway of course but perhaps this meter would be
best
> used on smaller caps like what would be used on today's electronics
instead
> of boatanchors.
>
> Regards
>
> Dave Harmon
> CCA 97-535
> Midwestern Collins
> K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net
> Sperry, Ok.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Garey
Barrell
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:05 PM
> To: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ??
>
> Dick -
>
> Generally speaking, bad is _BAD_ , i.e., either a cap will read
> fractional ohms for most caps, certainly less than 2-3 ohms. Bad caps
> will read hundreds of ohms or more depending upon the rest of the
> circuit. I don't think I've ever seen one over 3-4 ohms that wasn't
BAD.
>
> 73, Garey - K4OAH
> Glen Allen, VA
>
> Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line & TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs
> <www.k4oah.com>
>
>
>
> Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>
>> I have one of the Dick Smith ESR meters. Nice device, but I
>> wish I could find more info on analyzing the test results.
>>
>> For example, I test a 470 mfd @ 50 vdc cap. The meter reads
>> 0.15, the chart on the meter says 0.09. How bad is bad ??
>>
>>
>> Thanks for any tips,
>>
>> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>>
>>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:06:58 -0600
From: "Dave Harmon" <k6xyz at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Boatanchors] ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ??
To: <Boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <ACA77C703FAB41328AE435BBC904CF93 at skunkputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Gary......well hell....I never thought of that!!!!
HHAHAHA.....
Regards
Dave Harmon
K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net
Sperry, Ok.
-----Original Message-----
From: boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Garey Barrell
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:02 PM
To: Boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ??
Dave -
Wow! Are you sure they weren't shorted!?? :-) That's the only way I
can think of for a dried out cap to read low ESR. In fact I think they
recommend using the ESR meter in parallel with an ohmmeter to catch
shorted caps for just that reason.
That's the only "misleading" readings I've gotten, where a cap is
shorted and reads nice and low. The meter uses a roughly 100 kHz pulse,
and the only caps I've seen read higher are very low voltage units
where
there was enough inductance to "lose" the pulse. Caps less than 10 uF
tend to have higher ESRs than larger ones, but still less than 10-15
ohms. It should work fine on anything over 1 uFd.
It's the second piece of test equipment I grab with a "new" piece of
gear. Right after I check to see what some numbskull might have stuck
in the fuse-holder instead of the correct fuse! I've found everything
from the right fuse to one wrapped in aluminum foil to a piece of # 6
copper wire cut to length!
I guess it's like any other piece of test equipment, if the results
don't look "right", retest using another method.
73, Garey - K4OAH
Glen Allen, VA
Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line & TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs
<www.k4oah.com>
Dave Harmon wrote:
> Interesting....I have one of those Dick Smith meters too and in the
course
> of using it I was scratching my head when 47 year old electrolytics I
> removed from several Collins 516F-2's were testing good on the meter
but
the
> pop-tops were blown open and they stunk indicating that the
electrolyte
had
> left town years before....mebby decades.
> I replaced the caps anyway of course but perhaps this meter would be
best
> used on smaller caps like what would be used on today's electronics
instead
> of boatanchors.
>
> Regards
>
> Dave Harmon
> CCA 97-535
> Midwestern Collins
> K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net
> Sperry, Ok.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Garey
Barrell
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:05 PM
> To: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] ESR Measurements: How Bad Is Bad ??
>
> Dick -
>
> Generally speaking, bad is _BAD_ , i.e., either a cap will read
> fractional ohms for most caps, certainly less than 2-3 ohms. Bad caps
> will read hundreds of ohms or more depending upon the rest of the
> circuit. I don't think I've ever seen one over 3-4 ohms that wasn't
BAD.
>
> 73, Garey - K4OAH
> Glen Allen, VA
>
> Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line & TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs
> <www.k4oah.com>
>
>
>
> Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>
>> I have one of the Dick Smith ESR meters. Nice device, but I
>> wish I could find more info on analyzing the test results.
>>
>> For example, I test a 470 mfd @ 50 vdc cap. The meter reads
>> 0.15, the chart on the meter says 0.09. How bad is bad ??
>>
>>
>> Thanks for any tips,
>>
>> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>>
>>
_______________________________________________
End of Boatanchors Digest, Vol 59, Issue 5
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