[Alexandria Radio Club Reflector] Boat RF Ground plans, plus do you know if anyone has a battery cable crimper and cable cutter that I can use?
Philip Brown
phil at pjb3.com
Fri May 28 17:55:57 EDT 2021
Thank you so much, Doug and Ian.
I couldn’t ask for better advice.
I *thought* that the heat-shrink crimps with a ratcheting crimper was the way to go, but based on the feedback from you too, I’m now convinced that soldering and using the techniques described by Doug are definitely the way to go.
I’m glad to hear the warning about welding cable… it makes sense. I’ll only use tinned copper cables, especially given this information.
I was already looking at a long install. Now if I solder everything, it’ll take that much longer.
Hmm… I’ll have to think on this one long and hard. Maybe my solution will be to solder the most critical circuits, like those related to starting the engine and keeping it running, and crimp the others… at least for now. It’s not that I don’t believe you… i really *do*…. it’s just that I’ve cued up soooo many projects for myself, and I’d like to get in some boating time too… so I might split the difference by soldering the most important connections, crimping with heat shrink the less important ones, and leaving some extra wire on each of the crimped connections so that I can easily clip them off, and redo them with solder in the future.
Regarding the wire size, I’d definitely considering 4 AWG or 2 AWG, but nothing larger. Between the boat that I bought last year, and all of the money that I’ve already spend re-fitting her, I’ve got to mind my budget, otherwise my wife might put me out and *make* we sleep on Fish Beware.
Here’s a photo of Fish Beware. As I do more work, I’ll take more. I also plan to make a “build thread” on a wellcraft V20 speciality site.
I’ll post back here with the link once I get some photos up.
Thanks so much for your expertise. I *am* listening and learning, and I really appreciate it!
Sincerley,
-Philip
> On May 28, 2021, at 12:56 PM, Ian <iann8ik at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The voice of experience speaks! Yes, I also crimp, but then solder. In the marine world, crimping makes it ABYC-compliant but soldering guarantees the connection.
> 73, Ian N8IK
>
> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:29 PM dougmrose <dougmrose at gmail.com <mailto:dougmrose at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Phil,
> You have tapped into a world of expertise, but as a lifetime boat owner in Florida, the graveyard of wiring, perhaps I can add a few thoughts.
>
> First, forget crimping. It is useless around salt water. There are two problems: First, unless done expertly, crimping damages the wire at the point where it exits the crimp, and even if it is reinforced by shrink tubing, it often separates there. Second, no matter what you put over the crimp, it is not gastight and the connection will corrode. Particularly bad are the crimp eyes with a permanent plastic cover. The tool cannot crimp well through the plastic and the crimp is not tight. Remember, the plastic or shrink cover is there to provide a color code, it does not aid the connection.
>
> Solder everything. I solder small wires (AWG 10 and smaller) by using solder terminals and lightly crimping them onto the wire (so it doesn't fall off) and dipping them into a solder pot, up to the wire insulation. A small gap between terminal and wire insulation allows inspection of the joint. The same gap ensures that the shrink tubing doesn't slide off, since it shrinks more at the gap, and won't move. Solder flows up the strands of the wire and reinforces it until well up under the insulation. I like to use clear shrink tubing, which lets me wrap the terminal joint with tape of the correct color, and then shrink over it all with clear. The solder, however, is all that is required to ensure a working joint.
>
> It is not clear to me whether you are planning to use 4 AWG or 4/0, which is quite a bit larger. I used 4/0 on my boat, because it was going to start Perkins 6-354 diesels, but I assume 4 AWG would start a smaller gas engine nicely. It is easy to solder this stuff using solder terminals. Strip the wire and push it into the terminal along with some paste flux. Heat with a propane torch, heating the terminal but staying away from the wire. Feed the solder between the bare wire and the terminal, and heat until you are melting the solder on the wire itself. Many solder terminals have a small inspection hole at the eye end, and that will tell you when you are done. Remember, solder is drawn toward the heat, don't solder just at the inspection hole.
>
> After the flux residue is removed, use liquid tape or real electrical tape to seal the gap between terminal and wire, and then color code and apply the shrink. Heavy wires on boats are often made from small stuff, to retain flexibility. I have seen welding cable used. This gives you a huge surface area of copper and any salt intrusion is death.
>
> Finally, crimp technology is expensive. Terminals and wire must be a good match, and they charge accordingly. The tools are very costly. All to save a little time in production. Solder terminals are cheap, the solder will take up any slack, and the connections are solid metal. In short, crimp is for companies. Solder is for those of us doing small jobs, like a single boat.
>
> Just for the record, my cabin cruiser went over 20 years in Florida with no problems. My friend Rick Goltz circumnavigated without electrical problems. He took my advice and soldered everything. And, finally, in my career launching rockets, we found that after the bird had been on the pad for six or eight weeks, it would start to get wiring failures caused by bad crimps. And you cannot compete with the boys in California, their top notch equipment, layers of quality control, and their dry climate.
>
> Sorry to be so long winded. But contact me if you have any questions or need anything.
>
> Doug Rose
> AK4QY
>
> By the way, the little round photo is me at the helm of a Chris Craft cabin cruiser. It was 1950. I was five.
>
> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 7:12 AM Philip Brown <phil at pjb3.com <mailto:phil at pjb3.com>> wrote:
> Great!
>
> I’m still working in my wiring plan (draft attached), including figuring out what size wire to use for different runs.
> While I don’t want to undersize anything, I’ll have to make the classic tradeoff between size and cost.
>
> All wiring will be tinned aluminum.
>
> Also, I’ve found a company www.batterycablesusa.com <http://www.batterycablesusa.com/> <http://www.batterycablesusa.com/ <http://www.batterycablesusa.com/>>, that has very competitive prices for wires, and for a little less than $2 per connection they
> will crimp on a lug of your choice and heat shrink it…. so I’m looking at plans and budgets, but I’m tempted to let the pros do the crimping and heating since they
> likely have hydraulic crimpers and other professional grade tools.
>
> Thank you Jack W4JJ.
>
> I will reach out to you and/or Don if I end up crimping my own cables. (Don has some tools too).
>
> A preview of my plans are attached, but they are still a work in progress, and once I’m done I’ll probably ask for some input from the more experiences hams.
>
> I’m rewiring the whole boat, including moving the battery forward from the stern to under the passenger seat much closer to the bow, and also adding a 2nd battery and an automatic charge relay that keeps the batteries isolated except when the one of them is being charged, then the unit connects them in parallel so that both batteries charge.
>
>
>
>
> 73
>
> -Philip, W3PJB
>
>
>
> > On May 27, 2021, at 5:01 PM, W4JJ <jackparker at w4jj.com <mailto:jackparker at w4jj.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I have one that should work.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On May 27, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Ian <iann8ik at gmail.com <mailto:iann8ik at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Anyone have a crimping tool to handle 4ga battery cable?
> >> 73, Ian N8IK
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >> From: Philip Brown <phil at pjb3.com <mailto:phil at pjb3.com>>
> >> Date: Wed, May 26, 2021 at 9:22 PM
> >> Subject: Boat RF Ground plans, plus do you know if anyone has a battery
> >> cable crimper and cable cutter that I can use?
> >> To: Ian Keith <n8ik at arrl.net <mailto:n8ik at arrl.net>>, Don (KI4D) <don.ki4d at gmail.com <mailto:don.ki4d at gmail.com>>
> >> Cc: Philip J Brown III <phil at pjb3.com <mailto:phil at pjb3.com>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello Ian,
> >>
> >> (Don, I’m CC’ing as an FYI… since you’re clearly interested in everything
> >> RF ! :-) )
> >>
> >> Do you know if anyone in the club has a battery cable crimper that I can
> >> borrow?
> >> Is there any way that you could pose the question to the membership?
> >>
> >>
> >> I’m planning to run some 4 Gauge tinned copper wires in both the boat and
> >> the 4Runner, and once I crimp and heat-shrink the cables
> >> I’d have no use for a crimper or a cable cutter of that size… not to
> >> mention that this project is starting to get **expensive** !! :-)
> >>
> >>
> >> Here’s the update on my plans for an RF ground for the boat, and also for
> >> my 4Runner.
> >>
> >> *Any feedback from you, Don or an Elmer would be warmly welcomed. :-)*
> >>
> >>
> >> I found a part on craig’s list for $45 and bought it today — New old
> >> stock…. basically someone bought it and never used.
> >> Westmarine sells the same part new for $109. The manufacturer claims it
> >> has the same effect as 12 sqft of copper foil.
> >>
> >> It’s cool. It’s extremely pourous bronze that is specially bonded together
> >> to act as an electrical and RF ground. You bolt it to the bottom
> >> of your boat, and connect the ground wire to a gold plated bolt using gold
> >> plated nuts that are provided.
> >>
> >> It also protects the boat from lightning strikes by offering a high-current
> >> path to ground.
> >> It has some type of silver conductive paste that’s dried out in the box for
> >> my unit… I could probably use a small amount if anyone has a tube of that
> >> as well.
> >>
> >> The guy who I bought mine from said that his boat had a lighting strike
> >> while at the dock, and while it destroyed his dynaplate and fried his
> >> electronics,
> >> it didn’t blow-out his through-hull transducer, which he said is a common
> >> problem that leaves a hole in the hull that sinks many boats.
> >>
> >> This is pretty cool, and all new to me, but I find it exciting!
> >>
> >> I’m planning to use one of these
> >> as my “common RF ground” point for the boat, and another one for the
> >> 4Runner.
> >> I’m planning to run a 4 gauge copper tinned cable from this ground to the
> >> dynaplate on the boat, and to the vehicles body near the battery ground
> >> on the 4Runner.
> >>
> >> From Westmarine:
> >>
> >>
> >> 1. Marine Electronics <https://www.westmarine.com/marine-electronics <https://www.westmarine.com/marine-electronics>> /
> >> 2. Marine Communication <https://www.westmarine.com/marine-communication <https://www.westmarine.com/marine-communication>>
> >> /
> >> 3. VHF Accessories <https://www.westmarine.com/vhf-accessories <https://www.westmarine.com/vhf-accessories>> /
> >> 4. Grounding <https://www.westmarine.com/grounding <https://www.westmarine.com/grounding>>
> >>
> >> [image: Dynaplate, Bonding Use]larged view of picture, opens dialimages
> >> carousel, showing slide 1 of 1
> >> GUEST <https://www.westmarine.com/guest <https://www.westmarine.com/guest>>–Dynaplate, Bonding Use
> >> 0 stars, 0 reviews, skips to reviews
> >> $109.99
> >>
> >>
> >> Model # 377010 | Mfg # 4008
> >> SpecsDynaplate, Bonding Use
> >> NameValue
> >> Type Ground Plates
> >> Product Overview
> >>
> >> Bronze grounding plates replace yards of copper foil. Looks like a solid
> >> bronze plate, but actually a porous matrix of bronze spheres, presenting
> >> the same effective electrical surface as a much larger expanse of copper
> >> foil. Use as electronic ground for SSBs, Lorans and ham transceivers, or as
> >> a ground reference in bonding systems. Includes gold-plated bronze flathead
> >> fasteners and silver contact paste for superior conductivity. Plates have
> >> tapered ends and rounded edges for reduced turbulence.
> >>
> >> Standard Dynaplate
> >> Part No. 4006
> >> Dimensions: 6.0"W x 2.0" H x 0.50" D
> >> Mounting Holes: 2-1/2" center to center
> >> Mounting Hardware:1-3" Gold plated bolt and nut, 1-3" Bronze bolt and nut,
> >> 3 copper washers
> >> Weight: 3 Lbs.
> >>
> >>
> >> - Use for basic bonding and grounding
> >> - Improves performance of electronics and reduces RF interference
> >> - Offers the best path for hull bonding without long runs of copper foil
> >> - Equivalent to 12 square feet of copper foil
> >> - Provides a direct, low resistance path for improved lighting protection
> >> - Deters electrolysis and galvanic corrosion
> >> - Sintered porous bronze sphere construction for maximum conductivity in
> >> a compact size
> >> - Low drag, non fouling shape
> >> - Easy to install
> >> - Easy to clean with wire brush
> >> - Conforms to ABYC standards
> >>
> >> From the installation instructions:
> >> ______________________________________________________________
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> --
> . . . . ._\\|//_
> . . . . .[-o-o-]
> ---ooO-[_]-Ooo------
> . . . .Doug Rose
> dougmrose at gmail.com <mailto:dougmrose at gmail.com>
> . . 301 916 1593
> --------------------
> . . . . . || ||
> . . . ooO Ooo
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