[ADXA] Inverted L and the Snow

Sat Jan 11 18:02:49 EST 2025

You are already in the LOG, HOG, so try a BOG !!!

Sorry, couldn’t resist that.

You are correct, a BOG is typically shorter than a standard Bev. That was the interesting thing about the N2CEI situation. We have some 800 plus ft BOG’s that are pretty amazing with his situation down there amongst the pigmy rattler’s and cactus.

One of those little suckers actually nailed Steve once. They expel a good bit of venom. He was laid up over two weeks recovering.

ZN

From: adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net> On Behalf Of Dennis Schaefer
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 4:46 PM
Cc: ADXA <adxa at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [ADXA] Inverted L and the Snow

I looked up my soil type on a USDA web site.  It is Mountainburg Stony Fine Sandy Loam - 1 to 12% grade, Rocky.  It's what I would have called clay.

It is rocky, for sure.  Rocks just come out of the ground and I have to pile them up somewhere to keep from tearing up the mower.  If I dig a hole, I am constantly pulling out baseball-size or larger rocks.  I can dig down to about 20 inches, and then I hit a solid rock layer.  I can go about another 2 inches by breaking up the rock with a spud bar, and then it becomes too hard for that.  An impact drill or backhoe or other serious muscle would be required.  I think when I put up my tower, we drilled into the rock and inserted some rebar before pouring.  That's one reason it has a house bracket.

So - I suspect my ground conductivity is minimal.  My ground system consists of multiple ground rods, slant driven with an impact driver, and connected in a ring.  It's probably not up to Motorola standards, but is better than what I had for years.  I have a Pennant antenna almost ready to put up when weather allows, but now I'm wondering if I should also try a BOG.  I think the length of a BOG is less than a standard Beverage because of ground conductivity.  I would start with the standard recommendation, which I need to research.  300 feet sounds familiar.  I wanted to avoid ground rods in the woods because I have to remove everything for bush-hogging every fall, but I could probably drive them next to tree trunks and not have anything hit them.  I liked the Pennant because it is ground-independent.  

The "yagi on ice" reminds me that it would be interesting to lay a dipole on my ground and check the effects.  I wouldn't have any basis for comparison, but it would probably be different from a dipole laying on good soil.  I don't think I have poor enough ground for a yagi on the ground, but maybe if the elements were cut to resonance while on the ground.....  OTOH, I read somewhere that a very low dipole has maximum lobes off the ends.  Some people recommend a Loop on the Ground (LOG) but that doesn't seem to be very effective.  This antenna stuff is fascinating!

So should a HOG try a BOG, YOG, or a LOG?

73,

Dennis/RZ

On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 12:33 PM Mark Graves via ADXA <adxa at mailman.qth.net <mailto:adxa at mailman.qth.net> > wrote:

Look up 3Y0X Peter 1 antennas and their published models. They determined that the ice and snow was far enough away from conductive earth just to make a low band Yagi laying on the surface ice without having detrimental effects. 

It makes me wander if my mountain top verticals are actually elevated being installed over rock and sandy “soil”?

Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef> 

  _____  

From: adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <mailto:adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net>  <adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <mailto:adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net> > on behalf of Michael Nettles <kb5wbh at gmail.com <mailto:kb5wbh at gmail.com> >
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 12:11:09 PM
To: w5znjoel at gmail.com <mailto:w5znjoel at gmail.com>  <w5znjoel at gmail.com <mailto:w5znjoel at gmail.com> >
Cc: ADXA <adxa at mailman.qth.net <mailto:adxa at mailman.qth.net> >
Subject: Re: [ADXA] Inverted L and the Snow 

Thanks for the info. We have alot of knowledge in our club. I like reading about past experiences.  I'll have to look that QST article up too.
Best DX,
73
MIke kb5wbh 

On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 6:51 AM <w5znjoel at gmail.com <mailto:w5znjoel at gmail.com> > wrote:

I remember that article, and it contains some very good ideas.

It also generated some confusion over the difference between a good DC ground system for things like lightning protection versus the purpose of a ground radial system for a vertical type antenna. The purpose of a radial system, whether it is actually on the ground or elevated (another one of those intense religious debates!!) is to reduce ground losses. You don’t need a ground rod for that. The earth is a great big resistor and will suck up (a southern technical term for absorb) all of the current that flows along and then into the ground from an antenna. An effective radial system will greatly reduce the “sucking up” and reflect these, adding a little gain and lowering the radiation angle. A good radial system should perform the same whether it is in ground, on the ground, laid out on top of rocks, or elevated. Radials do not have to be buried in the ground in fact, if they are buried too far beneath the surface you will have the same result as being under fresh water. That great big resistor “Earth” will come in to play. I have around 16 miles of radials (YES miles) under my 160 and 80 meter transmit antennas and none were buried. I’ve described my technique before which is not unique, but a method used by those who have a lot of radials.

While talking about “ground”, when Steve, N2CEI, decided to build a 160 meter contest station at his Live Oak, FL QTH the first installation of Beverages just didn’t work well at all. No matter what we tried we just could not achieve the performance we should have. Then out of the blue one day Steve threw out a BOG (Beverage on Ground), and the performance was equivalent to one normally installed 5 to 7 ft above the ground. We didn’t give this much consideration but accepted it for what it was. I flew down and we began installing a system of BOG’s. During the installation Steve said “Its real easy to drive an 8 ft ground rod all the way down because there is about 5 ft of sand on the surface before you actually get down to real Earth……HELLO!!!!! A Beverage is a lossy antenna by design. It needs Earth losses underneath it to perform as it should and sand doesn’t provide that. In fact, it’s a pretty good insulator. I told Steve no wonder the Bev’s didn’t work well at 5 to 10 feet above the ground because, effectively, that was a Beverage 10 to 15 feet high above “Earth”. With the Bev’s laying on the surface or a few inches above it at his location was effectively 5 feet high, above “real” ground. So, the entire array of Beverages at N2CEI are about 4 inches above the surface. No worry about deer getting into them because there aren’t any there, just watch out for the little prickly cactus all over the surface and pigmy rattlesnakes that like to hang out among the cactus!

Now, with all of this said, whatever your situation, the only way you will determine the optimum conditions for your station at your location is to try something. If it doesn’t work as expected, revise it or if that doesn’t work, try something else. Some of your efforts will take time to optimize so focus on your effort, document what you’re doing so you will know the result, and organize your time. You won’t lose anything by missing an episode of Oprah or The View and the experience you gain from your work will be most rewarding for your station. Remember, develop a plan then work the plan. Set those goals.

Now, GET IN THERE!!!

73 Joel W5ZN

From: BILL KENNAMER <k5fuv at prodigy.net <mailto:k5fuv at prodigy.net> > 
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 3:40 PM
To: 'Michael Nettles' <kb5wbh at gmail.com <mailto:kb5wbh at gmail.com> >; 'ADXA' <adxa at mailman.qth.net <mailto:adxa at mailman.qth.net> >; w5znjoel at gmail.com <mailto:w5znjoel at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ADXA] Inverted L and the Snow

Check out the article "Improving earth ground characteristics" in December 1976 QST. I do that in addition to my radials.

FUV

On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 09:27:01 AM CST, <w5znjoel at gmail.com <mailto:w5znjoel at gmail.com> > wrote: 

I remember, once upon a time, I was having a chat at some radio event with Roy Lewallen, W7EL, the developer of EZNEC. A guy walked up and said “I have a question about ground systems and radials, and I realize that ground systems and radials is a lot like talking religion….” Roy interrupted him right there and said “That’s an easy answer and I don’t even know you’re question, I don’t discuss religion!!!!”

OK with that out of the way, the short answer is no. It won’t help the ground system on any antenna. We’re talking about fresh water (in any form), so the only real impact it will have is if you have a ground radial system that is under fresh water by a couple of inches you effectively don’t have any radials. Of course, salt water is an entirely different animal.

With that said, this is a religious question so opinions vary greatly and someone here may offer a different perspective (opinion). As a close personal friend of mine, Larry Price, W4RA (sk), told me on more than one occasion “You’re entitled to your opinion, even if it is WRONG!”

73 Joel W5ZN 

From: adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <mailto:adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net>  <adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <mailto:adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net> > On Behalf Of Michael Nettles
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 9:10 AM
To: ADXA <adxa at mailman.qth.net <mailto:adxa at mailman.qth.net> >
Subject: [ADXA] Inverted L and the Snow

Since we are in the middle of the current Snowmagedon I have a question for you guys. W5ZJ and I talked about it this morning too.

Does all this snow help the ground system on an Inverted L?

73

Mike kb5wbh 

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