[ADXA] Inverted L and the Snow

Sat Jan 11 17:45:49 EST 2025

I looked up my soil type on a USDA web site.  It is Mountainburg Stony Fine
Sandy Loam - 1 to 12% grade, Rocky.  It's what I would have called clay.

It is rocky, for sure.  Rocks just come out of the ground and I have to
pile them up somewhere to keep from tearing up the mower.  If I dig a hole,
I am constantly pulling out baseball-size or larger rocks.  I can dig down
to about 20 inches, and then I hit a solid rock layer.  I can go about
another 2 inches by breaking up the rock with a spud bar, and then it
becomes too hard for that.  An impact drill or backhoe or other serious
muscle would be required.  I think when I put up my tower, we drilled into
the rock and inserted some rebar before pouring.  That's one reason it has
a house bracket.

So - I suspect my ground conductivity is minimal.  My ground system
consists of multiple ground rods, slant driven with an impact driver, and
connected in a ring.  It's probably not up to Motorola standards, but is
better than what I had for years.  I have a Pennant antenna almost ready to
put up when weather allows, but now I'm wondering if I should also try a
BOG.  I think the length of a BOG is less than a standard Beverage because
of ground conductivity.  I would start with the standard recommendation,
which I need to research.  300 feet sounds familiar.  I wanted to avoid
ground rods in the woods because I have to remove everything for
bush-hogging every fall, but I could probably drive them next to tree
trunks and not have anything hit them.  I liked the Pennant because it is
ground-independent.

The "yagi on ice" reminds me that it would be interesting to lay a dipole
on my ground and check the effects.  I wouldn't have any basis for
comparison, but it would probably be different from a dipole laying on good
soil.  I don't think I have poor enough ground for a yagi on the ground,
but maybe if the elements were cut to resonance while on the ground.....
OTOH, I read somewhere that a very low dipole has maximum lobes off the
ends.  Some people recommend a Loop on the Ground (LOG) but that doesn't
seem to be very effective.  This antenna stuff is fascinating!

So should a HOG try a BOG, YOG, or a LOG?
73,
Dennis/RZ

On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 12:33 PM Mark Graves via ADXA <adxa at mailman.qth.net>
wrote:

> Look up 3Y0X Peter 1 antennas and their published models. They determined
> that the ice and snow was far enough away from conductive earth just to
> make a low band Yagi laying on the surface ice without having detrimental
> effects.
>
> It makes me wander if my mountain top verticals are actually elevated
> being installed over rock and sandy “soil”?
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net> on
> behalf of Michael Nettles <kb5wbh at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 11, 2025 12:11:09 PM
> *To:* w5znjoel at gmail.com <w5znjoel at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* ADXA <adxa at mailman.qth.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [ADXA] Inverted L and the Snow
>
>
> Thanks for the info. We have alot of knowledge in our club. I like reading
> about past experiences.  I'll have to look that QST article up too.
> Best DX,
> 73
> MIke kb5wbh
>
> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 6:51 AM <w5znjoel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I remember that article, and it contains some very good ideas.
>
>
>
> It also generated some confusion over the difference between a good DC
> ground system for things like lightning protection versus the purpose of a
> ground radial system for a vertical type antenna. The purpose of a radial
> system, whether it is actually on the ground or elevated (another one of
> those intense religious debates!!) is to reduce ground losses. You don’t
> need a ground rod for that. The earth is a great big resistor and will suck
> up (a southern technical term for absorb) all of the current that flows
> along and then into the ground from an antenna. An effective radial system
> will greatly reduce the “sucking up” and reflect these, adding a little
> gain and lowering the radiation angle. A good radial system should perform
> the same whether it is in ground, on the ground, laid out on top of rocks,
> or elevated. Radials do not have to be buried in the ground in fact, if
> they are buried too far beneath the surface you will have the same result
> as being under fresh water. That great big resistor “Earth” will come in to
> play. I have around 16 miles of radials (YES miles) under my 160 and 80
> meter transmit antennas and none were buried. I’ve described my technique
> before which is not unique, but a method used by those who have a lot of
> radials.
>
>
>
> While talking about “ground”, when Steve, N2CEI, decided to build a 160
> meter contest station at his Live Oak, FL QTH the first installation of
> Beverages just didn’t work well at all. No matter what we tried we just
> could not achieve the performance we should have. Then out of the blue one
> day Steve threw out a BOG (Beverage on Ground), and the performance was
> equivalent to one normally installed 5 to 7 ft above the ground. We didn’t
> give this much consideration but accepted it for what it was. I flew down
> and we began installing a system of BOG’s. During the installation Steve
> said “Its real easy to drive an 8 ft ground rod all the way down because
> there is about 5 ft of sand on the surface before you actually get down to
> real Earth……HELLO!!!!! A Beverage is a lossy antenna by design. It needs
> Earth losses underneath it to perform as it should and sand doesn’t provide
> that. In fact, it’s a pretty good insulator. I told Steve no wonder the
> Bev’s didn’t work well at 5 to 10 feet above the ground because,
> effectively, that was a Beverage 10 to 15 feet high above “Earth”. With the
> Bev’s laying on the surface or a few inches above it at his location was
> effectively 5 feet high, above “real” ground. So, the entire array of
> Beverages at N2CEI are about 4 inches above the surface. No worry about
> deer getting into them because there aren’t any there, just watch out for
> the little prickly cactus all over the surface and pigmy rattlesnakes that
> like to hang out among the cactus!
>
>
>
> Now, with all of this said, whatever your situation, the only way you will
> determine the optimum conditions for your station at your location is to
> try something. If it doesn’t work as expected, revise it or if that doesn’t
> work, try something else. Some of your efforts will take time to optimize
> so focus on your effort, document what you’re doing so you will know the
> result, and organize your time. You won’t lose anything by missing an
> episode of Oprah or The View and the experience you gain from your work
> will be most rewarding for your station. Remember, develop a plan then work
> the plan. Set those goals.
>
>
>
> Now, GET IN THERE!!!
>
>
>
> 73 Joel W5ZN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* BILL KENNAMER <k5fuv at prodigy.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, January 10, 2025 3:40 PM
> *To:* 'Michael Nettles' <kb5wbh at gmail.com>; 'ADXA' <adxa at mailman.qth.net>;
> w5znjoel at gmail.com
> *Subject:* Re: [ADXA] Inverted L and the Snow
>
>
>
> Check out the article "Improving earth ground characteristics" in December
> 1976 QST. I do that in addition to my radials.
>
>
>
> FUV
>
>
>
> On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 09:27:01 AM CST, <w5znjoel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I remember, once upon a time, I was having a chat at some radio event with
> Roy Lewallen, W7EL, the developer of EZNEC. A guy walked up and said “I
> have a question about ground systems and radials, and I realize that ground
> systems and radials is a lot like talking religion….” Roy interrupted him
> right there and said “That’s an easy answer and I don’t even know you’re
> question, I don’t discuss religion!!!!”
>
>
>
> OK with that out of the way, the short answer is no. It won’t help the
> ground system on any antenna. We’re talking about fresh water (in any
> form), so the only real impact it will have is if you have a ground radial
> system that is under fresh water by a couple of inches you effectively
> don’t have any radials. Of course, salt water is an entirely different
> animal.
>
>
>
> With that said, this is a religious question so opinions vary greatly and
> someone here may offer a different perspective (opinion). As a close
> personal friend of mine, Larry Price, W4RA (sk), told me on more than one
> occasion “You’re entitled to your opinion, even if it is WRONG!”
>
>
>
> 73 Joel W5ZN
>
>
>
> *From:* adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net> *On
> Behalf Of *Michael Nettles
> *Sent:* Friday, January 10, 2025 9:10 AM
> *To:* ADXA <adxa at mailman.qth.net>
> *Subject:* [ADXA] Inverted L and the Snow
>
>
>
> Since we are in the middle of the current Snowmagedon I have a question
> for you guys. W5ZJ and I talked about it this morning too.
>
>
>
> Does all this snow help the ground system on an Inverted L?
>
>
>
> 73
>
> Mike kb5wbh
>
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