[50mhz] [Magic Band EME] RE: [Moon-Net] 6m update from KH8/W7GJ
Lance Collister, W7GJ
w7gj at q.com
Fri Jul 25 16:41:27 EDT 2014
Almost, Barry.... You will see that I ask all stations to call me whether they are
copying me or not. If they are NOT copying me at a particular time, they call me with
just callsigns. If they ARE seeing my trace at that particular time, they are asked
to indicate that by calling with reports (JT65A message number 2). As long as they
spread out by coordinating their calling frequencies on the ON4KST EME CHAT page, I
won't have QRM between them, and I can decode all callers every sequence to see who I
can best call next and what frequency they are on.
Because 6m EME is such a difficult undertaking, and stations only rarely copy each
other at the same time, it necessary for stations to call even if they are not
copying me, since that may be precisely the time when I can decode them and identify
their telltale DF (or offset frequency from mine). This is not so much a function of
the new sensitive digital modes (which admittedly DO make 6m EME possible), as the
propagation problems involved with 6m EME signals.
6m EME is certainly not for HF types who expect a 5 second contact. Often the
contacts take a long time, while we wait for Faraday rotation to turn the polarity
around so each of us has a chance to receive the next piece of information in the
traditional contact protocol. It also becomes more complicated when one or both
stations are pointed at the horizon and are also relying on the moon to move through
narrow ground gain lobes to provide enough gain to make the half million mile trip.
In that case, both the gain and the polarity have to line up sequentially for each
station to receive the extremely weak transmissions from the other. And of course,
just to make it more of challenge, there are additional considerations such as
geomagnetic disturbances, high TEC content, Es shielding, tropo ducting to trap
signals, and variations in Degradation from orbital mechanics to disrupt the contact.
Yes, it is often a very slow and tedious process and requires much patience. However,
it is very often the only way to make contacts on 6m with stations on the other side
of the world, and is very much appreciated by serious 6m DXers. So, in summary, it is
admittedly one of the most challenging bands for EME, which also makes a contact
there one of the most rewarding ;-)
Given the fact that I have far exceeded the number of contacts completed during my
past 6m EME DXpeditions, despite the very limited common moon windows with Europe
from down here, it is evident that more and more 6m stations have geared up for 6m
EME. It also shows that this operating site - with negative horizon over the ocean on
both moonset and moonrise - was very effective in making the most of the limited
common moon windows.
One of the most effective keys to the success of a 6m EME DXpedition is choosing a
site that will be most effective in providing the windows and ground gain lobes
needed. You sure don't want to travel halfway around the world to activate a rare
DXCC only to set up an antenna that is blocked by a building or a mountain! In this
case, it was definitely worth the 1.5 hour commute each way to this amazing operating
site - the best from which I have ever had the pleasure of operating! Best wishes to
everyone for success on the last two days this coming weekend!
GL and VY 73, Lance
On 7/25/2014 7:15 AM, Barry Garratt wrote:
>
> Not exactly Craig. Read again what Lance says.
>
> “The decision to have stations *call with OOO if they are copying me*in the
> previous sequence was made
>
> > because it was the only way I could get both calls AND the information
>
> > as to which stations were copying at that time.”
>
> Stations are calling if they hear him NOT on the off chance they might hear/see him.
>
> That said I’m sure some will call without seeing his signal and if Lance responds
> to them and they don’t answer within a set period Lance moves on. That of course
> wastes valuable time and is discouraged.
>
> When I go to a rare grid and operate meteor scatter I operate in a similar fashion.
> More like what I call contest or pileup mode. If you see me call me and keep
> calling until I work you. I can decode multiple stations off a single meteor burst
> and while I’m working one station I’m also writing down calls of stations of
> stations I’m decoding. I just work my way through the list until no one else is
> calling at which time I start to CQ again.
>
> When Dennis K7BV and I went to CM93 a couple of years ago I was the first to get
> active. I sent one “test” just to make sure things were working correctly. Folks
> knew what QRG I use and were watching/waiting. That simple one sequence “test” was
> all it took and in the next hour I worked 45 stations without calling single CQ.
> Folks knew the procedure I use and made good use of it. Some didn’t so their
> contact took a tad longer but all in all my style works for me the same as Lance’s
> works for him.
>
> Glad though this is starting to make sense Craig.
>
> Take care,
>
> Barry KS7DX
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moon-net-bounces at mailman.pe1itr.com
> [mailto:moon-net-bounces at mailman.pe1itr.com] On Behalf Of Craig
> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 07:11 PM
> To: w7gj at q.com; Russ K2TXB; 'Paul Kiesel'; 'Magic Band EME Group'; 'Moon-Net';
> FFMA at yahoogroups.com; '50mhz'; 'WSJT Group'
> Subject: Re: [Moon-Net] 6m update from KH8/W7GJ
>
> Ding ! and the light bulb in my head comes on. Thanks Lance.
>
> This thread has been confusing and I think I know why. It's a 'mind-set'
>
> issue. Some of us who have been on EME for decades still think in terms of CW and
> SSB protocols and operating techniques. When writers mentioned stations calling
> Lance w/o hearing/copying him, I'm like..whaaat ??
>
> So the master, Lance, puts it in perspective. Evidently on the digital modes,
> stations call someone BEFORE they actually hear/copy them ! This is totally foreign
> to my way of operating; and I suspect from reading the thread that I'm not the only
> one. Stations are calling Lance before even copying him. In the old way of
> thinking; that's nuts !
>
> And even with Internet postings and live chat; how would one know the exact
> frequency to call on ? But now that's an outdated thought process evidently.
>
> With digital, stations KNOW exactly what frequency the other guy is on; they KNOW
> his sequence, they KNOW his exact call (and prefix). So why not go ahead and call
> and hope that he will see and decode your signal out of the mess.
>
> All of a sudden, thanks to Lance's explanation; it finally makes sense.
>
> Craig,
>
> N8DJB
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> From: "Lance Collister, W7GJ" <w7gj at q.com <mailto:w7gj at q.com>>
>
> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 5:38 PM
>
> To: "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb at dxcc.com <mailto:k2txb at dxcc.com>>; "'Paul Kiesel'"
> <k7cw at yahoo.com <mailto:k7cw at yahoo.com>>; "'Magic Band EME Group'"
> <MagicEME at googlegroups.com <mailto:MagicEME at googlegroups.com>>; "'Moon-Net'"
>
> <moon-net at mailman.pe1itr.com <mailto:moon-net at mailman.pe1itr.com>>;
> <FFMA at yahoogroups.com <mailto:FFMA at yahoogroups.com>>; "'50mhz'"
>
> <50mhz at mailman.qth.net <mailto:50mhz at mailman.qth.net>>; "'WSJT Group'"
> <wsjtgroup at yahoogroups.com <mailto:wsjtgroup at yahoogroups.com>>
>
> Subject: Re: [Moon-Net] 6m update from KH8/W7GJ
>
> > Hi Russ,
>
> >
>
> > The reason I adopted the revised procedure for callers was so I could
>
> > tell which callers are copying me, and try to complete with them
>
> > first. This is the way I have been able to quickly work a number of
>
> > stations on my 6m EME DXpeditions, where most of the stations are
>
> > extremely weak, many stations are horizon-only (limiting their
>
> > potential moon time to a couple sharp ground gain lobes) and the
>
> > Faraday rotation can be very slow ( locking out stations for long
>
> > periods of time). Spending a long time calling stations who do not
>
> > copy you is counter productive and unnecessarily prevents contacts
>
> > with other stations with whom 3 minute exchanges would be possible.
>
> >
>
> > On all but one of my six 50 MHz EME DXpeditions, I have not had any
>
> > internet access, and I don't plan on having any such access on future
>
> > 6m EME DXpeditions either.
>
> > Therefore, I can't operate JT65 as many people on some bands do,
>
> > replying to stations that report via the internet that they are
>
> > copying them! My operations are much more "random" and are completely
>
> > based on actual radio contacts. The decision to have stations call
>
> > with OOO if they are copying me in the previous sequence was made
>
> > because it was the only way I could get both calls AND the information
>
> > as to which stations were copying at that time. Since I treat such a
>
> > call as a call with callsigns only, my responses are always either
>
> > calls and OOO or final RRR (in strict accordance with the time honored
>
> > EME contact protocol).
>
> >
>
> > In response to your comment, this protocol is far from "secret", and I
>
> > have been encouraging all callers to use it on each of my 6m EME
>
> > DXpeditions if they have any interest on working me from a new DXCC. I
>
> > don't have the luxury of having many strong stations to work, with
>
> > lots of "extra margin" to make up for polarity mismatch. Nor do I have
>
> > the luxury of cross polarization or circular polarization on 6m.
>
> > This is
>
> > the best solution I have found for me on my 6m EME DXpeditions, and
>
> > the proof is in the pudding. I am up to 64 stations logged on 6m EME
>
> > up to this point, far exceeding my other records for stations worked
>
> > on such DXpeditions....and I still have one more weekend left to go. I
>
> > am happy to be able to provide a rare DXCC for serious 6m EME
>
> > operators around the world, and greatly appreciate their willingness
>
> > to learn and follow this most productive procedure.
>
> >
>
> > GL and VY 73, Lance
>
> >
>
> > On 7/20/2014 7:49 PM, Russ K2TXB wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> Hello Paul. Well I did not realize it was only a six meter thing. I
>
> >> still do not really like the idea of having a ‘secret protocol’,
>
> >> available to only those who read his web page or if he happens to
>
> >> mention it on moon net. However I am not on six meters and so really
>
> >> have nothing more to say about it. I thought it was the same
>
> >> expedition as ZL1RS/KH8 and thus that the comment was for 2 meters
>
> >> too.
>
> >>
>
> >> Sorry about that,
>
> >>
>
> >> 73, Russ
>
> >>
>
> >> *From:*Paul Kiesel [mailto:k7cw at yahoo.com]
>
> >> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 2:36 PM
>
> >> *To:* Russ K2TXB;w7gj at q.com <mailto:w7gj at q.com>; 'Magic Band EME Group'; 'Moon-Net';
>
> >>FFMA at yahoogroups.com <mailto:FFMA at yahoogroups.com>; '50mhz'; 'WSJT Group'
>
> >> *Subject:* Re: [Moon-Net] 6m update from KH8/W7GJ
>
> >>
>
> >> He's been using it for years and it works fine for him and us.
>
> >>
>
> >> K7CW
>
> >>
>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >> ----------------
>
> >>
>
> >> *From:*Russ K2TXB <k2txb at dxcc.com <mailto:k2txb at dxcc.com
> <mailto:k2txb at dxcc.com%20%3cmailto:k2txb at dxcc.com>>>
>
> >> *To:*w7gj at q.com <mailto:w7gj at q.com> <mailto:w7gj at q.com>; 'Magic Band EME Group'
>
> >> <MagicEME at googlegroups.com <mailto:MagicEME at googlegroups.com
> <mailto:MagicEME at googlegroups.com%20%3cmailto:MagicEME at googlegroups.com>>>;
>
> >> 'Moon-Net'
>
> >> <moon-net at mailman.pe1itr.com <mailto:moon-net at mailman.pe1itr.com
> <mailto:moon-net at mailman.pe1itr.com%20%3cmailto:moon-net at mailman.pe1itr.com>>>;
>
> >>FFMA at yahoogroups.com <mailto:FFMA at yahoogroups.com> <mailto:FFMA at yahoogroups.com>;
> '50mhz'
>
> >> <50mhz at mailman.qth.net
>
> >> <mailto:50mhz at mailman.qth.net>>; 'WSJT Group'
>
> >> <wsjtgroup at yahoogroups.com <mailto:wsjtgroup at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:wsjtgroup at yahoogroups.com%20%3cmailto:wsjtgroup at yahoogroups.com>>>
>
> >> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 11:15 AM
>
> >> *Subject:* Re: [Moon-Net] 6m update from KH8/W7GJ
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> > If you are copying me and only sending calls, don't be surprised if
>
> >> > I
>
> >> answer someone else before I test the waters with you!
>
> >>
>
> >> Say What? Standard procedure is NOT to send reports until you have
>
> >> received both his call and your own call. Until then why would anyone
>
> >> send anything but both calls? Please do not invent your own
>
> >> procedure... Too much confusion for all.
>
> >>
>
> >> 73, Russ K2TXB
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
>
> >> From:moon-net-bounces at mailman.pe1itr.com <mailto:moon-net-bounces at mailman.pe1itr.com>
>
> >> <mailto:moon-net-bounces at mailman.pe1itr.com>
>
> >> [mailto:moon-net-bounces at mailman.pe1itr.com
>
> >> <mailto:moon-net-bounces at mailman.pe1itr.com>] On Behalf Of Lance
>
> >> Collister, W7GJ
>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 12:04 AM
>
> >> To: Magic Band EME Group; Moon-Net; FFMA at yahoogroups.com <mailto:FFMA at yahoogroups.com>
>
> >> <mailto:FFMA at yahoogroups.com>; 50mhz; WSJT Group
>
> >> Subject: [Moon-Net] 6m update from KH8/W7GJ
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Hello! I have included updates from my KH8 6m DXpedition web page below:
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> July 13, 2014 - First moon pass, and the first ever EME from KH8. Lots of
>
> >> fun having
>
> >> so many ground gain lobes from being so high above the sea! Also was nice
>
> >> to have
>
> >> visual aiming until around 1000Z, when a front came in and totally socked
>
> >> us
>
> >> in :-( Degradation was -3.4 dB today, so it is nice to get so many in the
>
> >> log (including a number of single yagi stations) before cndx peak! Worked
>
> >> the following stations before heading home to take a shower and get some
>
> >> sleep: KG7H, K2ZD, N3XX, W6BBS, N6BBS, N7NW, K7CW, NN7J, VE1JF, N3CXV.
>
> >> Also copied but did not work: W7MEM, N6RMJ, K6EME, W4IMD , WA4NJP and
>
> >> W4CSW.
>
> >> Please spread the word for people to follow the QSO protocol listed on my
>
> >> website. I will first call people who are copying me. If you are copying
>
> >> me and only sending calls, don't be surprised if I answer someone else
>
> >> before I test the waters with you! Because the air conditioning failed
>
> >> here, the
>
> >> power supply overheated and ailed to work at all.
>
> >> July 14, 2014 - After a return trip to the site to further diagnose the
>
> >> problem, it turned out that the power supply simply shutting down due to
>
> >> excessive internal
>
> >> heating. We brought back a portable house fan to mount directly in front
>
> >> of the
>
> >> power supply, and opened up the room's windows and door to increase air
>
> >> movement.
>
> >> Both operators and the power supply performed much better ;-) During the
>
> >> second moon pass, it started out totally overcast and raining, but later
>
> >> the
>
> >> moon was visible,
>
> >> providing the reassurance of visual aiming. I exchanged call signs with
>
> >> G8BCG, but
>
> >> since the common moon window was only minutes, we failed to complete.
>
> >> Others heard
>
> >> but not worked were K6EME, ZL2NW, KD7YZ, W8PAT, N8JX, VE3KH, W4CSW, OA4TT
>
> >> and W7IUV.
>
> >> Stations worked were W7MEM, K4ZOT, WA4NJP, and W7JW, bringing the total
>
> >> after two moon passes to 14. At dawn we had a tremendous local noise come
>
> >> up (just an hour
>
> >> before our moonset), that made it impossible to work anyone. We were
>
> >> unable to
>
> >> locate this noise, but suspect it may be something built into the
>
> >> extensive
>
> >> solar
>
> >> array at the operating site. We will continue to make efforts to resolve
>
> >> this noise
>
> >> problem, but if you have any choice, please try to work us earlier in the
>
> >> month, when we have common moon before our local sunrise ( around 17300Z)
>
> >> ,
>
> >> since we may not be able to be successful during our moonset. Again, I
>
> >> ask
>
> >> that anyone interested in completing with me here, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
>
> >> READ
>
> >> MY QSO PROCEDURES on my KH8 DXpedition page:
>
> >>http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj/AmericanSamoa2014.htm ! Please
>
> >> understand
>
> >> that I will first answer people who are actually copying me, and the only
>
> >> way to do this is if everyone understands the proper procedure I am using
>
> >> here....do NOT just call me with calls if you are seeing my trace at that
>
> >> time.
>
> >>
>
> >> REMINDER - I can only elevate my single yagi to 60 degrees! If you have
>
> >> elevation,
>
> >> or are in EU, please try to call me when my moon is much lower. When the
>
> >> moon is
>
> >> above 60 degrees, I try to give priority to horizon-only stations in
>
> >> Region
>
> >> 2, who only have that chance available to them.
>
> >>
>
> >> It is quite exhausting trying to operate all night and still drive the
>
> >> narrow winding road (1.5 to 2 hours each way) to and from the site every
>
> >> day, but we are trying to keep it up as long as we can. Thanks for your
>
> >> cooperation, and we hope to be able to provide a new DXCC to many of you!
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> GL and VY 73, Lance
>
> >>
>
> >> --
>
> >> Lance Collister, W7GJ
>
> >> (ex WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR, 5W0GJ, E6M,
>
> >> TX5K)
>
> >> P.O. Box 73
>
> >> Frenchtown, MT 59834-0073
>
> >> USA
>
> >> TEL: (406) 626-5728
>
> >> QTH: DN27ub
>
> >> URL:http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
>
> >> Skype: lanceW7GJ
>
> >> 2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815
>
> >>
>
> >> Interested in 6m EME? Ask me about subscribing to the Magic Band EME
>
> >> email
>
> >> group, or just fill in the request box at the bottom of my web page
>
> >> (above)!
>
> >>
>
> >> _______________________________________________
>
> >> Moon-Net posting and subscription instructions are at
>
> >>http://www.nlsa.com/nets/moon-net-help.html
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> _______________________________________________
>
> >> Moon-Net posting and subscription instructions are at
>
> >>http://www.nlsa.com/nets/moon-net-help.html
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > Lance Collister, W7GJ
>
> > (ex WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR, 5W0GJ, E6M,
>
> > TX5K, KH8/W7GJ)
>
> > P.O. Box 73
>
> > Frenchtown, MT 59834-0073
>
> > USA
>
> > TEL: (406) 626-5728
>
> > QTH: DN27ub
>
> > URL:http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
>
> > Skype: lanceW7GJ
>
> > 2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815
>
> >
>
> > Interested in 6m EME? Ask me about subscribing to the Magic Band EME
>
> > email group, or just fill in the request box at the bottom of my web
>
> > page (above)!
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > Moon-Net posting and subscription instructions are at
>
> >http://www.nlsa.com/nets/moon-net-help.html
>
> >
>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Moon-Net posting and subscription instructions are at
> http://www.nlsa.com/nets/moon-net-help.html
>
> --
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--
Lance Collister, W7GJ
(ex WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR, 5W0GJ, E6M, TX5K, KH8/W7GJ)
P.O. Box 73
Frenchtown, MT 59834-0073
USA
TEL: (406) 626-5728
QTH: DN27ub
URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
Skype: lanceW7GJ
2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815
Interested in 6m EME? Ask me about subscribing to the Magic Band EME
email group, or just fill in the request box at the bottom of my web
page (above)!
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