[W8MWA] Road map to the future?

Mon Sep 28 06:45:05 EDT 2015

i have a  change of e-mail address ---it is wahelmick at mail.wvu.edu

________________________________
From: w8mwa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <w8mwa-bounces at mailman.qth.net> on behalf of Dean Thompson <deanot26508 at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2015 7:09 PM
To: Josh Smith
Cc: Crowe Randy; MWA Mail Reflector; Bill Shultz
Subject: Re: [W8MWA] Road map to the future?

If it is of any interest in wanting to set up a secondary system/repeater in the area, I live on a pretty tall mountain just off of 119.  If we can find a tower, set it up on my property we could have another pretty good coverage system.  I can hit Clarksburg, Morgantown, Waynesburg and many other repeaters from this location. and that is with the tip of my dual band Diamond base antenna about 30' in the air.

If we could get an 80' tower, I could provide the power to the site, some data access to the repeater and none of the BS with having to worry about regulations on being certified to climb a tower.

Food for thought, we could expand the coverage and even link the two sites via wireless backhaul using Ubiquity Network Hardware.

Dean,  KD8YNY

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Josh Smith <juicewvu at gmail.com<mailto:juicewvu at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hello Everyone:

According to the Yaesu website the special price on Fusion repeaters is available through September 30:
https://www.yaesu.com/pdf/DR1-X_Installation_Program_Final.pdf

I think this is something the club should likely persue - at the very least to get something up and running on the UHF frequencies allocated to our repeater infrastructure.

The time frame is pretty tight on this so we would need to move quickly to get this application submitted prior to the deadline.

What does everyone think about trying to get in on this special price?

Thanks,
Josh

Josh Smith
KD8HRX
email/jabber:  juicewvu at gmail.com<mailto:juicewvu at gmail.com>
phone:  304.237.9369<tel:304.237.9369>(c)

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Dean Thompson <deanot26508 at gmail.com<mailto:deanot26508 at gmail.com>> wrote:
The remote base is what i had in mind, Ido have a 100% signal at my qth.

Just for information.

On Friday, September 25, 2015, Josh Smith <juicewvu at gmail.com<mailto:juicewvu at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hello Josh,

See my replies inline as before.

Josh Smith
KD8HRX
email/jabber:  juicewvu at gmail.com
phone:  304.237.9369<tel:304.237.9369>(c)

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 2:05 AM, Josh Prichard <wvunderground at gmail.com> wrote:
So what about linking the echolink in via remote base?  At least this way if it was totally screwed up someone could key up the repeater and kill the remote radio link until it was stable again.  I don't know if Dean is close enough to have a good remote base signal but something to think about.  Otherwise.... echolink has a remote webpage that we can setup so any of the club members can log in and kill the link as well.  It would be very easy to setup and distribute the login info to everyone.  We could probably even setup a mini server with power control to kill the echolink radio power in case of extreme emergency.  Multiple ways to control this link.

A remote base sounds like a fantastic idea for linking our repeater to echo link to me.  I'm not sure if Deans QTH is a good one for this or not, but I'll bet we can find a member or two that are in a good location if Dean is not.

Randy - Can you weigh in on your thoughts of linking the repeater to echolink via a remote base as the repeater trustee?

Bill - Can you weigh in from a technical standpoint.

I'm going to revisit the VHF fusion repeater thing as I have been reading more info on it.  As of what I know now.... there are a few ways we could go about this.  Since the vhf repeater is old it most likely needs replaced.  The club could get a fusion repeater and let it replace the vhf repeater.  We can run the fusion repeater in a few different modes.
Analog only in / Analog only out
Analog and Digital in / Analog out*
Analog and Digital in / Analog and Digital out**

*In the analog and digital in / analog out mode a user can either talk digital or analog into the repeater and come out analog only on the output so everyone would always hear everything.  This would allow digital users better input into the repeater and should keep analog users the same as it is now.

**Analog and Digital in / Analog and Digital out - in this mode if a group of people are talking in digital would be digital in / digital out.  Analog users wouldn't hear anything as long as they have a ctcss tone set on receive.  Now if an analog user wants to talk.... when they key up the repeater.... the repeater will go into the digital and analog in / analog out mode and stay that way until a timeout has happened where the analog user has stopped talking.  Then it'll be back in analog and digital in / analog and digital out.

My new suggestion would be to replace the current vhf machine with a fusion repeater and allow the analog and digital in / analog out mode.  This would at least get a new repeater in place of the old equipment and still allow all users to participate.  From what I gather yaesu still has the 500$ deal going for clubs.  This would beat putting money into an old repeater.

To provide a little more detail on our repeater.  The controller is pretty new (less than 3 years) but the radios are pretty old but have proven to be very reliable.  I'm not sure that a replacement of the entire system is warranted.

Then perhaps start to build out a UHF network on DMR.  I'm aiming at UHF for the fact that the new dongles coming out for DMR hotspots are UHF based.  DMR radios aren't dual band yet.

Now to follow up on some of your other questions I never answered.  I'm from Logan right now which is right over the hill from Beckley.

I know where Logan is, I've been there more than once, though I have not been there for several years.

I have been talking on the Ivy Knob dmr repeater after work.  I run up the top of a hill and talk away.  Right now the cheapest HT for dmr would be the TYT md-380 I believe.  It is what I'm using at the moment.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walkie-Talkie-TYT-MD-380-UHF-5W-Digital-Mobile-DMR-2-Way-Radio-1xUSB-Cable-US-/301693099071?hash=item463e4f5c3f

Just make sure to get one with a programming cable.  They have a codeplug avail on the NCPRN site that includes the Beckley repeaters.

http://www.ncprn.net/downloads.html

Thanks for the links.

As for linking digital repeaters.... its all internet based now days which is why it would be a plus to have internet at the repeater sites.  The wireless link that BIll is working on now is ideal.  I run a wireless link at 5ghz at my current workplace and haven't had one hickup other than a switch that couldn't handle the mac tables from so many devices going through it.  Running the Ubiquiti Nanostation NSM5 at both locations and it maxes a 75meg connection out.  Voice data is nowhere near this throughput.

I've used ubiquiti equipment and am a big fan as well.

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Joshua Smith <juicewvu at gmail.com> wrote:
Dean,
Thanks for your input. Please see my comments again they are inline below.

73,
--
Josh Smith
KD8HRX

Email/jabber: juicewvu at gmail.com
Phone: 304.237.9369<tel:304.237.9369>(c)

Sent from my iPhone.

On Sep 22, 2015, at 10:35 PM, Dean Thompson <deanot26508 at gmail.com> wrote:

I am not seeing any replies from other club members on this,
I for one am interested in getting my echolink box set up on a local repeater, if not this one I will try the WVU repeater.  Echolink does have some advantages, example being... One of our hams moved away just over a year ago, would it not be nice for him to stop in and say hi on the Monday net?.  As Josh mentioned, it is also nice for when we are out of town.

I agree echo link has some nice use sees and I would like to see it available on the MWA repeater. Although I think the ability to break/reestablish this link from the repeater side and I am not sure what is involved in making that a possibility.

We need more feedback on this, more replies as this affects us all in some way or another.

We definitely need feedback from everyone in the club. Most importantly from Bill(WR8S) as the technical person who takes care of the repeater and from Randy (N8OZY) as the repeater trustee.

hopefully they are able to weigh in on this via email but if not we have a good topic to address in the October meeting.

Josh has made some good points, and I look forward to moving forward on some of these ideas.  First we need to either replace the aged repeater or repair it, having a digital mode would be nice also.

I agree our number one priority needs to be in repairing the repeater (even if that means replacing some of the equipment). I also would like to see us have a digital repeater of some sort in addition to our existing analog repeater NOT in place of as I think asking everyone to replace their existing equipment just to access the repeater would be a disaster for the club.

What is the situation for a new repeater? can we afford one? do we need to chip in, raise some funding somehow?

I think we need to first get the existing repeater back to its optimal condition and see what that does to our funds. Then we can start to plan for expanding our repeater system - hopefully into the digital space.

http://www.yaesu.com/indexVS.cfm?cmd=DisplayProducts&ProdCatID=249&encProdID=4105F1B8AE65079CAD2D26735B83B302 this is the system fusion repeater if anyone is interested, and I just noticed it uses C4FM which is what my Yeasu 991 can run, so that is a plus for me.. lol

That seems like a good deal on the repeater. Unfortunately I believe most of the expenses with building out a new repeater will be in the ancillary things that go along with it - antennas, feed line, duplexes, filters, etc.

I don't know if this is bogus or not, but the above repeater is $500 on a club special, see here http://www.radioinc.com/oscmax/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3791

I hope to see you all at the next meeting, Josh and Josh, keep up the chat, I feel some headway is being made.

Thanks again for the input.

Dean (KD8YNY)

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Josh Smith <juicewvu at gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Josh,

Please see my comments inline again.

Josh Smith
KD8HRX
email/jabber:  juicewvu at gmail.com
phone:  304.237.9369<tel:304.237.9369>(c)

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Josh Prichard <wvunderground at gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Josh....

I'm hoping I didn't come off as harsh as that was not my intention.  Sometimes I do have problems getting my thoughts out correctly.  If so I do apologize.

You didn't come across as harsh.  No need to apologize.

This is the club I'll join.  It seems like a club with good users.  Sure there is a difference of opinion but that is any club.  Everyone was nice and friendly.  I think the club has a good future.  Just gotta get everyone back to being excited about it.

Thank you for joining our club.  I think you'll find its a good club and worth the investment of your time and effort.

Being everything to everyone is kinda hard to do in a club setting.  Everyone has different ideas on what the club should be.

The future for the repeaters and etc... it would be nice to hear some activity on the repeater.

I agree it would be nice to hear some activity outside of the Monday evening net, I have no room to talk here though because I am as guilty as anyone of not using the repeater.

  I know with cell phones, ham radio is starting to taper off on usage.

I agree with this with respect to the local repeater as a means to foster communication amongst hams in the local area.  I also think that the ubiquity of emaill/instant messaging/text messaging has as much or more to do with this than the cell phone does.  Just think 10 or 15 years ago we would probably be having this discussion on the repeater instead of over email.  I don't necessarily think this is all a bad thing though.  At least email is easier to store and keep a record of for later reference.

This is the reason why I was talking about echolink.  Since I'm not usually in town but will be moving in soon.... I had a want to talk on the local repeater up there.  Would have been nice to be able to remote into the repeater and strike up a convo about local stuff and start to make friends.  If someone is traveling that would also be a nice addition as well.  Echolink is now on smart phones so one can download it and boom instant radio that works away from home.

Echolink is definitely interesting and a useful mode.  I've experimented with it in the past and useful to access a local repeater when away from the area.  Unfortunately as you've noticed there isn't much activity on our repeater currently so I'm not sure how much luck you would have had striking up a conversation even if it were accessible via echolink.

As of right now the digital repeaters in WV are as follows.....

DMR which is separated into two different link networks.

DMR-MARC network - uses motorola dmr repeaters - has been active in the states for some time
Bluefield, WV 1 repeater
Beckley, WV 3 spread out to cover a lot of area.
See here for current map:  http://www.dmr-marc.net/repeaters.html

Thanks for the information and the link to the map.  I am glad to know there is a presence in the Beckley area as it is where I am originally from and still travel there often to visit family.  I may try to pick up a cheap DMR HT before I head down there the next time and try to access them.  Do you have any recommendations for such an HT?

DMRPlus - uses hytera dmr repeaters
None yet in WV but its just now getting started in the states.

FUSION
Clarksburg 1 repeater
Pt. Pleasant 1 repeater

DSTAR
Mount Hope 1 repeater

Digital offers some nice features.

It's definitely more bandwidth efficient and I also like the slow speed data and text messaging capabilities present in most digital solutions.

In doing some more research on fusion... i agree with you that it would be nice to leave the current analog system online and put a digital system in place as another repeater.

I think this is a requirement not just a nice to have.  Like it or not Analog has too large of a footprint to just do away with anytime in the near future and its proven technology.  I know our repeater has been used more than once to coordinate communications to areas otherwise cut off due to winter storms even as recently as 4 or 5 years ago.  I was (un)fortunately out of town when that storm hit and was not able to participate so someone else on the list can provide more details of this event.  I think until such time as everyone has digital radios and the system has proven itself to be as reliable there will be a lot of reluctance to get rid of the current analog system.

To have the fusion in place of the analog system you would have to run the output of the fusion in analog mode and the input in dual digital/analog mode.  That would almost defeat the purpose of digital as it adds an analog route in.  Sooooo my new suggestion based on the info I have acquired.  Install a new fusion repeater and then perhaps link it into the analog system later on.

I like this idea.  Unfortunately I do not know if space is available at the current repeater site or if we'd have to look for an alternate site to host a new repeater.  It's something we should discuss as we go forward with deciding what the future of our repeater looks like.

Or perhaps start with a UHF DMR repeater then move to fusion a little later on.

We currently have an analog repeater that is in some form of disrepair.  I really like the idea of making our UHF frequencies our "experimental" repeater and I think we should investigate using any/all of the digital repeater modes on this frequency.

DMR we could also link into the analog vhf repeater.  Would be nice to get a dmr repeater on the air at the university club as well..

As you might have noticed from some of the discussions the university club is pretty much defunct right now but Dr. Vanscoy is trying very hard to revive it.  Hopefully she is successful and if she is we could embark on a project like this.

Could use the same talkgroups on both repeaters and have a wide link network started.

Just curious - I know that with some of the digital modes (DSTAR in particular) linking over the air is not possible and all links must be over the internet.  Is the same true for DMR or is it possible to link multiple DMR repeaters using only RF?

So yes.... I will try to put together an info packet/presentation on the digital systems for the next meeting.

Thank you very much for trying to put this together.  The next meeting will be on October 20.  Would it be possible to let me know by the 13th if you will be able to put together the presentation or not so we have a bit of time to put together an alternate?

I'm hoping my DMR dongle has came in by then.  If so I'll setup a DMR hotspot and let the group take a test drive.  I have been doing a few months worth of research into different digital modes so I do have some info handy.

Great.  I am very interested in theys technology and would love to see it in action.

As a side note.... how this reflector is setup.... its a tad hard to carry on a good conversation.  If you don't reply to the reflector you just reply to the user and no one else really sees the reply.

The reflector is set up pretty much identically to any email list I have ever used and having been in the IT industry for a while I have subscribed and continue to subscribe to lots of mailing lists.  Looking back at my reply it went to both you (in the to: field) and the list (in the cc: field) and looking at my email archive I did receive my reply via the list so all subscribers should have seen it.  Please let me know if you have any specific questions regarding the list.

I'm in the process of setting up a DMR website that will hopefully group some info together for those interested in DMR and possibly other digital modes.

Great, I've spent some time reading a bit about DMR the past few evenings and while there is a lot of information out there it seems to be scattered all over the interwebs.  A central place that collects a lot of this information would be very valuable.

I'm adding a forum in as well.  I have a club forum setup on there as well that is only avail to members of the club if anyone would be interested.  Otherwise perhaps we can setup a forum on the w8mwa page.
  It would allow everyone to discuss club business in a better format and have separate areas for members and non members of the club.  Plus an area to talk about anything and everything under the sun.

It's just my personal preference but I much prefer mailing lists for this type of discussion but by no means does my preference cary any weight.

Here is mine.... http://forum.dmrwv.com
It's a work in progress as I just started it.
Also if help is needed with the website I would be more than happy to help.  I have quite a bit of experience with websites etc.

Thank you very much for the offer.  Randy Crowe (N80ZY) and Bill Shultz (W8RS) are the primary care takers of the website.  They are both subscribed to the list and I'm sure will be reading this.  But do mention it to them during the next club meeting.

 <snip>

Thanks,
Josh

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