From dfischer at usol.com  Tue Mar  1 00:26:23 2005
From: dfischer at usol.com (Duane B. Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Mar  1 00:28:02 2005
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Message-ID: <200503010527.j215RNd8018861@smtp.usol.com>

Hello Dick, 	
	
What make and model of tape deck, or tape recorder, did you use to make the
original recordings? 		
	
What was the source used; AM/FM tuner, turntable or? 	
	
How, and inside what, has the audio tape been stored over the years?     	
	
What are you currently using to play the reel to reel tape on? 	
	
Somewhat Unrelated: 	
	
I have Scotch audio tape on a seven inch reel, 1 mil, 1800 feet identified as
#207. It is not back coated and is not the commercial grayish/black oxide.
However, it is of extremely high quality and vastly superior to any other
version of Scotch audio tape I have ever used, other than the type #227. The
latter being on a seven inch reel, 1 mil, 1800 feet, black on the reverse and
grayish/black on the record side. It is this tape that I mentioned in a previous
post as having nearly 1/2 ounce more weight per reel that the type #207. I
attribute this weight difference to the heavier composition of the oxide and the
actual coating being thicker. 	
	
I am totally blind, as most of you know, an avid audio fan for four decades and
have excellent hearing. The Scotch type #227 is the best audio tape for minimal
noise, accuracy of frequency, least high frequency roll off at 3 3/4 IPS (none
at 7 1/2 IPS) and retention of a recording that I have ever used. Why, and in
what ways, is the #250 audio tape superior?	
	
Is there any difference in fact between the #206 and #207 audio tapes? 	
	
What Scotch tape used the commercial/studio grade oxide besides the #227?
(purchased from 3M under government contract for use by the U.S. Navy.) 		
	
What is a still sealed seven inch, 1 mil, 1800 foot real of the commercial grade
#227 tape worth today? 	
	
How much for the Scotch #207, which is said to be professional grade, but does
not have the grayish/black oxide?
	
Thank you.          		
	
Duane W8DBF	
dfischer@usol.com 	

	

	

----------
From: Richard Boogher <rboogher@cox.net>
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Monday, February 28, 2005 11:13 PM

Hello,
I have several reels of this in the padded box I purchased new in the 70's.
>From my understanding it is very similar to Scotch 250 mastering tape. 206
on steroids. High bias, very low noise. My recordings still sound very good.
It is a back coated tape. Was very expensive as I remember.

Dick Boogher


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:23 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations


Gerry,

This narrows the field somewhat. The commercial grade, also the mil spec
used by
the US Navy (where I got it from), is the type 227. It has the grayish/black
oxide. It is 1 mil, 1800 feet. Cardboard box and each reel is sealed inside
aplastic bag.

The type 207 is also commercial grade, but a lower grade of tape. It has the
reddish/brown oxide, 1 mil and 1800 feet. It is in a cardboard container and
sealed in a plastic bag. It does have a paper insert of some kind, about
1.5X3.5
inch.

None of the Scoth that I have is back coated. Only the Sony and Ampex.

----------
From: Gerry Steffens <gsteffens@pitel.net>
To: 'Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back'
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:03 AM

The oxide side is brownish red,Gerry


Collecting & Restoring since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.
Oronoco, MN


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:49 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations

Looking at this from a different angle, what color is the oxide side of the
tape? The brownish red or the grayish black?

----------
From: Gerry Steffens <gsteffens@pitel.net>
To: 'Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back'
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:06 PM

Sorry, there is no number on any of the boxes.  The literature only refers
to "Scotch" Brand CLASSIC.   This appears the only designation and it is
used over and over.  It is written with the word classic all in capital
letters, Scotch capitalized and in quotes and Brand capitalized.  It is 1
mil, 1800 feet and back coated.  This Classic tape is in black boxes that
have padded front covers that are attached along the back hinge area and are
identified by chrome appearing lettering in the upper right, front corner.
The boxes also have a plastic insert inside that provides a circle into
which the reel is placed, as opposed to just a round reel in a square box.

The tape without back coating is also "Scotch" Brand CLASSIC but it is
merely in a plain black box, no circular insert, no padded cover, no scotch
plaid or the old red, white and blue and is 1 and 1/2 mil, 1200 feet.

Cheers from Minnesota,
Gerry


Collecting & Restoring since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.
Oronoco, MN


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:35 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations

Gerry,

Can you please tell me the Scotch tape numbers, such as 150, 207, 227 etc.?


Thank you.

Duane Fischer, W8DBF


----------
From: Gerry Steffens <gsteffens@pitel.net>
To: 'Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back'
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:22 PM

I have three different styles of Scotch Classic on 7 1/2 inch reels in
original high end plastic boxes.  One has no back coating, two styles do
have and I don't know which is later but following are the two bulleted
descriptions on the circular inserts in the formed portion of the tape box:

Exclusive POSI-TRAK backing improves mechanical handling for longer tape
life and even tape wind

The other back coated tape insert reads as follows:

Exclusive POSI-TRAK backing improves mechanical handling for longer tape
life and even tape wind while reducing print through

This might lead one to believe that they might have added the back coating
for traction and durability purposes and then realized that print through
was also reduced (because of thickness changes) and then laid claim to that
too.

Note that of my back coated tapes, several have turned to a gummy mess and
have been trashed.  As I remember all of these were Scotch but I am not
certain.

All of these tapes are 1800 foot, 1 mil tapes.

I have another insert I believe to be from Quantegy Grand Master Studio
Master Audio Tape.  This insert also mentions the reduction of print through
attributed to the back coating in addition to a reduced wow & flutter due to
better traction and a more "controlled" tape movement.  This insert is in
the Quantegy box but has no marking to confirm it belongs there.

Cheers from Minnesota,

Gerry


Collecting & Restoring since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.
Oronoco, MN


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Sheldon Daitch
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:56 AM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations

I never heard that the backcoating was to reduce print-through, although the
thicker the base stock, and the back coating would add to that, the lower
the
print-through, in theory.

I always thought the back coating was to reduce static in fast forward and
fast
rewind operations. and at least one site:

 http://www.videomaker.com/scripts/article.cfm?id=1540

seems to back that up:

"Many years ago, the 3M company added an extra layer to their audio and
videotapes. They applied a graphite compound to the base side of the tape,
away
from the magnetic coating. Their reason for doing this was to lower static
electrical charges (which build up during fast wind/rewind) and improve the
durability of the tape--especially important for editing. Their
studio-quality
audio tapes and broadcast videotapes were soon known by their dull black
backside appearance.

Today, some tapes are back-coated and some are not. While the advantages of
backcoating were (and still are) real, improvements in tape manufacturing
have
made it a matter of choice for tape makers, and not so much a big deal to
you,
the user."

I have a Teac A-7030 deck and I have problems with the back coated tapes,
when I
leave the auto rewind mode on.  The rewind mode uses a split sensor in the
supply reel idler arm, the two pieces of the sensor are insulated, and when
a
metallic section of tape shorts out the two pieces, it sends the deck into
the
rewind mode.  SInce it relies on a small voltage across the two sensor
points,
the voltage causes some "static" in the playback side, no doubt due to the
conductivity of the back coating.

Sheldon



Gerry Steffens wrote:

> Not sure of the difference between the two Scotch tapes but the back
coating
> is there to reduce the level of print through.  When tapes are wound and
> remain that way for longer (or even shorter) periods of time the magnetism
> from one layer will "print through" to the next layer.  This is
particularly
> true of loud passages.  Minimizing print through was one reason we left
> tapes tails out at the radio station when I was a DJ while in college a
> little over thirty-five years ago.
>
> Gerry
>
> Collecting & Restoring since 1959
> Gerald Steffens P.E.
> Oronoco, MN
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Duane B.
> Fischer, W8DBF
> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 5:57 PM
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> What is the 'real' difference between the seven inch reels of Scotch autio
> tape
> #207 and #227?
>
> I weighed each on a postal scale, as I thought the #227 felt heavier to
me.
> The
> #207 weighed 13.5 ounces and the #227 was just under 14 ounces.
>
> Both appear to be very high quality, the #227 I am positive is commercial
> grade,
> as it has the black/gray oxide.
>
> Additionally, what was the thinking in the 'back coating" of audio tapes?
> The
> reddish oxide on one side and black on the other.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Duane W8DBF
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
_______________________________________________
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List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
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List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
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List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
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_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
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From rboogher at cox.net  Wed Mar  2 00:02:28 2005
From: rboogher at cox.net (Richard Boogher)
Date: Wed Mar  2 00:05:29 2005
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
In-Reply-To: <200503010527.j215RNd8018861@smtp.usol.com>
Message-ID: <AIEDLGAPOGBCCLJJCDEJEEMLDDAA.rboogher@cox.net>

Duane,
At the time I was using the tape I had two machines, a Teac 4010 GSL and an
Otari MX 5050 half track. Some of the material was live and some from a
record player. The cartridge was a Stanton 881s in an AR-XA turntable with a
DBX122 range expander. I used Crown amps and pre-amps and Altec 19's. As to
the question of storage the tapes have been in a controlled environment and
most of them have not been on a machine for twenty plus years. To answer the
next question, 206 and 207 were the same formulation but 207 was on 1.0 mil
backing and 206 was on a 1.5 mil backing. Both were back coated, the
technology came from the 3M computer tape called Black Watch.

Sincerely,
Dick Boogher


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 9:26 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations


Hello Dick,

What make and model of tape deck, or tape recorder, did you use to make the
original recordings?

What was the source used; AM/FM tuner, turntable or?

How, and inside what, has the audio tape been stored over the years?

What are you currently using to play the reel to reel tape on?

Somewhat Unrelated:

I have Scotch audio tape on a seven inch reel, 1 mil, 1800 feet identified
as
#207. It is not back coated and is not the commercial grayish/black oxide.
However, it is of extremely high quality and vastly superior to any other
version of Scotch audio tape I have ever used, other than the type #227. The
latter being on a seven inch reel, 1 mil, 1800 feet, black on the reverse
and
grayish/black on the record side. It is this tape that I mentioned in a
previous
post as having nearly 1/2 ounce more weight per reel that the type #207. I
attribute this weight difference to the heavier composition of the oxide and
the
actual coating being thicker.

I am totally blind, as most of you know, an avid audio fan for four decades
and
have excellent hearing. The Scotch type #227 is the best audio tape for
minimal
noise, accuracy of frequency, least high frequency roll off at 3 3/4 IPS
(none
at 7 1/2 IPS) and retention of a recording that I have ever used. Why, and
in
what ways, is the #250 audio tape superior?

Is there any difference in fact between the #206 and #207 audio tapes?

What Scotch tape used the commercial/studio grade oxide besides the #227?
(purchased from 3M under government contract for use by the U.S. Navy.)

What is a still sealed seven inch, 1 mil, 1800 foot real of the commercial
grade
#227 tape worth today?

How much for the Scotch #207, which is said to be professional grade, but
does
not have the grayish/black oxide?

Thank you.

Duane W8DBF
dfischer@usol.com





----------
From: Richard Boogher <rboogher@cox.net>
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Monday, February 28, 2005 11:13 PM

Hello,
I have several reels of this in the padded box I purchased new in the 70's.
>From my understanding it is very similar to Scotch 250 mastering tape. 206
on steroids. High bias, very low noise. My recordings still sound very good.
It is a back coated tape. Was very expensive as I remember.

Dick Boogher


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:23 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations


Gerry,

This narrows the field somewhat. The commercial grade, also the mil spec
used by
the US Navy (where I got it from), is the type 227. It has the grayish/black
oxide. It is 1 mil, 1800 feet. Cardboard box and each reel is sealed inside
aplastic bag.

The type 207 is also commercial grade, but a lower grade of tape. It has the
reddish/brown oxide, 1 mil and 1800 feet. It is in a cardboard container and
sealed in a plastic bag. It does have a paper insert of some kind, about
1.5X3.5
inch.

None of the Scoth that I have is back coated. Only the Sony and Ampex.

----------
From: Gerry Steffens <gsteffens@pitel.net>
To: 'Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back'
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:03 AM

The oxide side is brownish red,Gerry


Collecting & Restoring since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.
Oronoco, MN


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:49 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations

Looking at this from a different angle, what color is the oxide side of the
tape? The brownish red or the grayish black?

----------
From: Gerry Steffens <gsteffens@pitel.net>
To: 'Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back'
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:06 PM

Sorry, there is no number on any of the boxes.  The literature only refers
to "Scotch" Brand CLASSIC.   This appears the only designation and it is
used over and over.  It is written with the word classic all in capital
letters, Scotch capitalized and in quotes and Brand capitalized.  It is 1
mil, 1800 feet and back coated.  This Classic tape is in black boxes that
have padded front covers that are attached along the back hinge area and are
identified by chrome appearing lettering in the upper right, front corner.
The boxes also have a plastic insert inside that provides a circle into
which the reel is placed, as opposed to just a round reel in a square box.

The tape without back coating is also "Scotch" Brand CLASSIC but it is
merely in a plain black box, no circular insert, no padded cover, no scotch
plaid or the old red, white and blue and is 1 and 1/2 mil, 1200 feet.

Cheers from Minnesota,
Gerry


Collecting & Restoring since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.
Oronoco, MN


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:35 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations

Gerry,

Can you please tell me the Scotch tape numbers, such as 150, 207, 227 etc.?


Thank you.

Duane Fischer, W8DBF


----------
From: Gerry Steffens <gsteffens@pitel.net>
To: 'Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back'
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:22 PM

I have three different styles of Scotch Classic on 7 1/2 inch reels in
original high end plastic boxes.  One has no back coating, two styles do
have and I don't know which is later but following are the two bulleted
descriptions on the circular inserts in the formed portion of the tape box:

Exclusive POSI-TRAK backing improves mechanical handling for longer tape
life and even tape wind

The other back coated tape insert reads as follows:

Exclusive POSI-TRAK backing improves mechanical handling for longer tape
life and even tape wind while reducing print through

This might lead one to believe that they might have added the back coating
for traction and durability purposes and then realized that print through
was also reduced (because of thickness changes) and then laid claim to that
too.

Note that of my back coated tapes, several have turned to a gummy mess and
have been trashed.  As I remember all of these were Scotch but I am not
certain.

All of these tapes are 1800 foot, 1 mil tapes.

I have another insert I believe to be from Quantegy Grand Master Studio
Master Audio Tape.  This insert also mentions the reduction of print through
attributed to the back coating in addition to a reduced wow & flutter due to
better traction and a more "controlled" tape movement.  This insert is in
the Quantegy box but has no marking to confirm it belongs there.

Cheers from Minnesota,

Gerry


Collecting & Restoring since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.
Oronoco, MN


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Sheldon Daitch
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:56 AM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations

I never heard that the backcoating was to reduce print-through, although the
thicker the base stock, and the back coating would add to that, the lower
the
print-through, in theory.

I always thought the back coating was to reduce static in fast forward and
fast
rewind operations. and at least one site:

 http://www.videomaker.com/scripts/article.cfm?id=1540

seems to back that up:

"Many years ago, the 3M company added an extra layer to their audio and
videotapes. They applied a graphite compound to the base side of the tape,
away
from the magnetic coating. Their reason for doing this was to lower static
electrical charges (which build up during fast wind/rewind) and improve the
durability of the tape--especially important for editing. Their
studio-quality
audio tapes and broadcast videotapes were soon known by their dull black
backside appearance.

Today, some tapes are back-coated and some are not. While the advantages of
backcoating were (and still are) real, improvements in tape manufacturing
have
made it a matter of choice for tape makers, and not so much a big deal to
you,
the user."

I have a Teac A-7030 deck and I have problems with the back coated tapes,
when I
leave the auto rewind mode on.  The rewind mode uses a split sensor in the
supply reel idler arm, the two pieces of the sensor are insulated, and when
a
metallic section of tape shorts out the two pieces, it sends the deck into
the
rewind mode.  SInce it relies on a small voltage across the two sensor
points,
the voltage causes some "static" in the playback side, no doubt due to the
conductivity of the back coating.

Sheldon



Gerry Steffens wrote:

> Not sure of the difference between the two Scotch tapes but the back
coating
> is there to reduce the level of print through.  When tapes are wound and
> remain that way for longer (or even shorter) periods of time the magnetism
> from one layer will "print through" to the next layer.  This is
particularly
> true of loud passages.  Minimizing print through was one reason we left
> tapes tails out at the radio station when I was a DJ while in college a
> little over thirty-five years ago.
>
> Gerry
>
> Collecting & Restoring since 1959
> Gerald Steffens P.E.
> Oronoco, MN
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Duane B.
> Fischer, W8DBF
> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 5:57 PM
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> What is the 'real' difference between the seven inch reels of Scotch autio
> tape
> #207 and #227?
>
> I weighed each on a postal scale, as I thought the #227 felt heavier to
me.
> The
> #207 weighed 13.5 ounces and the #227 was just under 14 ounces.
>
> Both appear to be very high quality, the #227 I am positive is commercial
> grade,
> as it has the black/gray oxide.
>
> Additionally, what was the thinking in the 'back coating" of audio tapes?
> The
> reddish oxide on one side and black on the other.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Duane W8DBF
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

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From dfischer at usol.com  Wed Mar  2 15:46:45 2005
From: dfischer at usol.com (Duane B. Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Wed Mar  2 15:48:58 2005
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Message-ID: <200503022048.j22Km0d8027207@smtp.usol.com>

Dave, 	
	
Regarding the 1.0 and 1.5 mil backing. Which is better?	

DBF

----------
From: Richard Boogher <rboogher@cox.net>
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:02 AM

Duane,
At the time I was using the tape I had two machines, a Teac 4010 GSL and an
Otari MX 5050 half track. Some of the material was live and some from a
record player. The cartridge was a Stanton 881s in an AR-XA turntable with a
DBX122 range expander. I used Crown amps and pre-amps and Altec 19's. As to
the question of storage the tapes have been in a controlled environment and
most of them have not been on a machine for twenty plus years. To answer the
next question, 206 and 207 were the same formulation but 207 was on 1.0 mil
backing and 206 was on a 1.5 mil backing. Both were back coated, the
technology came from the 3M computer tape called Black Watch.

Sincerely,
Dick Boogher


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 9:26 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations


Hello Dick,

What make and model of tape deck, or tape recorder, did you use to make the
original recordings?

What was the source used; AM/FM tuner, turntable or?

How, and inside what, has the audio tape been stored over the years?

What are you currently using to play the reel to reel tape on?

Somewhat Unrelated:

I have Scotch audio tape on a seven inch reel, 1 mil, 1800 feet identified
as
#207. It is not back coated and is not the commercial grayish/black oxide.
However, it is of extremely high quality and vastly superior to any other
version of Scotch audio tape I have ever used, other than the type #227. The
latter being on a seven inch reel, 1 mil, 1800 feet, black on the reverse
and
grayish/black on the record side. It is this tape that I mentioned in a
previous
post as having nearly 1/2 ounce more weight per reel that the type #207. I
attribute this weight difference to the heavier composition of the oxide and
the
actual coating being thicker.

I am totally blind, as most of you know, an avid audio fan for four decades
and
have excellent hearing. The Scotch type #227 is the best audio tape for
minimal
noise, accuracy of frequency, least high frequency roll off at 3 3/4 IPS
(none
at 7 1/2 IPS) and retention of a recording that I have ever used. Why, and
in
what ways, is the #250 audio tape superior?

Is there any difference in fact between the #206 and #207 audio tapes?

What Scotch tape used the commercial/studio grade oxide besides the #227?
(purchased from 3M under government contract for use by the U.S. Navy.)

What is a still sealed seven inch, 1 mil, 1800 foot real of the commercial
grade
#227 tape worth today?

How much for the Scotch #207, which is said to be professional grade, but
does
not have the grayish/black oxide?

Thank you.

Duane W8DBF
dfischer@usol.com





----------
From: Richard Boogher <rboogher@cox.net>
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Monday, February 28, 2005 11:13 PM

Hello,
I have several reels of this in the padded box I purchased new in the 70's.
>From my understanding it is very similar to Scotch 250 mastering tape. 206
on steroids. High bias, very low noise. My recordings still sound very good.
It is a back coated tape. Was very expensive as I remember.

Dick Boogher


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:23 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations


Gerry,

This narrows the field somewhat. The commercial grade, also the mil spec
used by
the US Navy (where I got it from), is the type 227. It has the grayish/black
oxide. It is 1 mil, 1800 feet. Cardboard box and each reel is sealed inside
aplastic bag.

The type 207 is also commercial grade, but a lower grade of tape. It has the
reddish/brown oxide, 1 mil and 1800 feet. It is in a cardboard container and
sealed in a plastic bag. It does have a paper insert of some kind, about
1.5X3.5
inch.

None of the Scoth that I have is back coated. Only the Sony and Ampex.

----------
From: Gerry Steffens <gsteffens@pitel.net>
To: 'Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back'
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:03 AM

The oxide side is brownish red,Gerry


Collecting & Restoring since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.
Oronoco, MN


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:49 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations

Looking at this from a different angle, what color is the oxide side of the
tape? The brownish red or the grayish black?

----------
From: Gerry Steffens <gsteffens@pitel.net>
To: 'Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back'
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:06 PM

Sorry, there is no number on any of the boxes.  The literature only refers
to "Scotch" Brand CLASSIC.   This appears the only designation and it is
used over and over.  It is written with the word classic all in capital
letters, Scotch capitalized and in quotes and Brand capitalized.  It is 1
mil, 1800 feet and back coated.  This Classic tape is in black boxes that
have padded front covers that are attached along the back hinge area and are
identified by chrome appearing lettering in the upper right, front corner.
The boxes also have a plastic insert inside that provides a circle into
which the reel is placed, as opposed to just a round reel in a square box.

The tape without back coating is also "Scotch" Brand CLASSIC but it is
merely in a plain black box, no circular insert, no padded cover, no scotch
plaid or the old red, white and blue and is 1 and 1/2 mil, 1200 feet.

Cheers from Minnesota,
Gerry


Collecting & Restoring since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.
Oronoco, MN


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Duane B.
Fischer, W8DBF
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:35 PM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations

Gerry,

Can you please tell me the Scotch tape numbers, such as 150, 207, 227 etc.?


Thank you.

Duane Fischer, W8DBF


----------
From: Gerry Steffens <gsteffens@pitel.net>
To: 'Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back'
<vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:22 PM

I have three different styles of Scotch Classic on 7 1/2 inch reels in
original high end plastic boxes.  One has no back coating, two styles do
have and I don't know which is later but following are the two bulleted
descriptions on the circular inserts in the formed portion of the tape box:

Exclusive POSI-TRAK backing improves mechanical handling for longer tape
life and even tape wind

The other back coated tape insert reads as follows:

Exclusive POSI-TRAK backing improves mechanical handling for longer tape
life and even tape wind while reducing print through

This might lead one to believe that they might have added the back coating
for traction and durability purposes and then realized that print through
was also reduced (because of thickness changes) and then laid claim to that
too.

Note that of my back coated tapes, several have turned to a gummy mess and
have been trashed.  As I remember all of these were Scotch but I am not
certain.

All of these tapes are 1800 foot, 1 mil tapes.

I have another insert I believe to be from Quantegy Grand Master Studio
Master Audio Tape.  This insert also mentions the reduction of print through
attributed to the back coating in addition to a reduced wow & flutter due to
better traction and a more "controlled" tape movement.  This insert is in
the Quantegy box but has no marking to confirm it belongs there.

Cheers from Minnesota,

Gerry


Collecting & Restoring since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.
Oronoco, MN


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Sheldon Daitch
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:56 AM
To: Vintage home and professional audio equipment from 1975 back
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations

I never heard that the backcoating was to reduce print-through, although the
thicker the base stock, and the back coating would add to that, the lower
the
print-through, in theory.

I always thought the back coating was to reduce static in fast forward and
fast
rewind operations. and at least one site:

 http://www.videomaker.com/scripts/article.cfm?id=1540

seems to back that up:

"Many years ago, the 3M company added an extra layer to their audio and
videotapes. They applied a graphite compound to the base side of the tape,
away
from the magnetic coating. Their reason for doing this was to lower static
electrical charges (which build up during fast wind/rewind) and improve the
durability of the tape--especially important for editing. Their
studio-quality
audio tapes and broadcast videotapes were soon known by their dull black
backside appearance.

Today, some tapes are back-coated and some are not. While the advantages of
backcoating were (and still are) real, improvements in tape manufacturing
have
made it a matter of choice for tape makers, and not so much a big deal to
you,
the user."

I have a Teac A-7030 deck and I have problems with the back coated tapes,
when I
leave the auto rewind mode on.  The rewind mode uses a split sensor in the
supply reel idler arm, the two pieces of the sensor are insulated, and when
a
metallic section of tape shorts out the two pieces, it sends the deck into
the
rewind mode.  SInce it relies on a small voltage across the two sensor
points,
the voltage causes some "static" in the playback side, no doubt due to the
conductivity of the back coating.

Sheldon



Gerry Steffens wrote:

> Not sure of the difference between the two Scotch tapes but the back
coating
> is there to reduce the level of print through.  When tapes are wound and
> remain that way for longer (or even shorter) periods of time the magnetism
> from one layer will "print through" to the next layer.  This is
particularly
> true of loud passages.  Minimizing print through was one reason we left
> tapes tails out at the radio station when I was a DJ while in college a
> little over thirty-five years ago.
>
> Gerry
>
> Collecting & Restoring since 1959
> Gerald Steffens P.E.
> Oronoco, MN
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:vintage-audio-bounces@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Duane B.
> Fischer, W8DBF
> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 5:57 PM
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Scotch Audio Tape Variations
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> What is the 'real' difference between the seven inch reels of Scotch autio
> tape
> #207 and #227?
>
> I weighed each on a postal scale, as I thought the #227 felt heavier to
me.
> The
> #207 weighed 13.5 ounces and the #227 was just under 14 ounces.
>
> Both appear to be very high quality, the #227 I am positive is commercial
> grade,
> as it has the black/gray oxide.
>
> Additionally, what was the thinking in the 'back coating" of audio tapes?
> The
> reddish oxide on one side and black on the other.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Duane W8DBF
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
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List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
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List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
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List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

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** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
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** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

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** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
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From dfischer at usol.com  Mon Mar 21 23:45:10 2005
From: dfischer at usol.com (Duane B. Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Mar 21 23:51:52 2005
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Admin Post - Please Read
Message-ID: <200503220447.j2M4lZd8017616@smtp.usol.com>


	
I would like to welcome my long time friend, mentor and professional DX
consultant, W5WP, Dave Paperman to the Vintage Audio list. I noticed your name
as I update the subscriber file.	
	
Speaking of subscribers, we need to add some to this list. The topics covered by
this list are quite extensive and cover nearly any niche of the subject. If each
of us got one person to sign up and contribute a tidbit of wisdom or experience
now and then, it would be of great benefit to all. So, DO IT!	
	
The subscriber count has been quite steady, we lose numbers when members pass
away, a few leave now and then voluntarily, but for the most part, the
membership remains constant. Good, but we need to expand the member base.	
	
There seems to be quite a bit of interest in Vintage Audio, but very little
discussion. I wonder why? There are individuals subscribed who could write a
book on the topic, so we are at no time short of tremendous collective wisdom. 	
	
Which raises the question:  Are the fans of vintage audio equipment using it,
storing it, buying/selling it, repairing it or what the heck are they doing with
it?	
	
You all know I use mine.	
	
Duane Fischer, W8DBF	

