[Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info

Tue Jul 8 19:12:08 2003

It's been wrong about a lot of things....Nothing new..

WBob

Rudy Rutenber wrote:
> In regard to audio polarity; it is most likely more evident in the low
> frequencies if the polarity of the speakers are reversed. (not out-of-phase)
> If you have any questions about the necessity of correct polarity of the
> entire system, go to www.jblpro.com or www.mccauley.com and read the
> engineering facts. Lastly, if the entire audio industry is wrong about
> polarity of speakers, I would be very surprised to say the least.
> Rudy
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> 
> 
> 
>>Duane:
>>The speakers that required AC power were sometimes called "Electrostatic
>>Speakers". The power was required for electrostatic tweeter elements to
>>"faithfully reproduce the high frequencies with crystal clear clarity".
>>The quote is from the an ad in the Lafayette Radio 1973 catalog. It was a
>>poor seller for the time we had them in the catalog. Customers also kept
>>returning them as defective because they kept forgetting to throw the
>>ON/OFF switch to ON. Besides the AC cord being plugged into the wall
>>outlet, you still had to connect the two speaker terminals to the
>>amplifier.
>>
>>My Dynaco amplifier speaker connections have no plus or minus on the
>>terminals. Terminals are labeled Common, 4, 8, and 16. Is 4, 8, or 16
>>plus; is Common plus; or is it vice versa? The answer is, as I said
>>several days ago and as Mark also states, it doesn't make any difference
>>as long as the connected configuration for each channel is the same.
>>There is no plus or minus. These are audio frequencies we are dealing
>>with and are sinusoidal (alternating)  in nature. There is no polarity
>>involved, only phase. If you perceive to hear a difference with only one
>>speaker connected and then reversing the leads, your brain is just
>>playing tricks with you. Picture one symmetrical sine wave feeding a
>>woofer. The wave rises in a positive direction, woofer goes from rest to
>>push out; wave drops back to zero, woofer returns to rest; wave rises in
>>the negative direction, woofer pulls in; wave drops back to zero, woofer
>>comes to rest. If you turn the leads around, the woofer will do the same
>>thing except push out and pull in are reversed. The important thing to
>>remember is that all the speakers connected to your amplifier be
>>connected so that they are in phase with each other.
>>
>>Pete
>>
>>On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:53:21 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
>><[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>>Mark,
>>>
>>>Interesting information, thank you.
>>>
>>>I do recall some speakers in the late sixties or early seventies
>>>that actually
>>>plugged into the walloutlet for power. A novel approach, but I do
>>>not recall
>>>them catching on once the curios were satisfied.
>>>
>>>
>>>You are quite correct Mark, only being out of phase makes a
>>>difference. I simply
>>>prefer to play it on the safe side with my stereo equipment.
>>>
>>>
>>>When I connected the AR-4 to the H.H. Scott LK-72B to test it, I
>>>tried
>>>connecting the wires both ways. I could hear a difference one way
>>>and decided to
>>>use that as the correct polarity. I have each positive wire in my
>>>systems marked
>>>on both ends for ease of identification, by the way. It turned out
>>>when I did
>>>take the grill cover off so I could feel the motion of the speaker
>>>cone, that I
>>>had correctly identified the polarity. There is a discernable
>>>difference.
>>>
>>>Are you suggesting there should be no difference if amp positive
>>>goes to speaker
>>>negative and amp negative goes to speaker positive? If so, my ears
>>>say
>>>otherwise.
>>>
>>>I believe the sharing of information, even when the opinions are
>>>contradictory,
>>>is healthy. It always helps to look at a situation from a different
>>>angle or
>>>perspective. many times one sees something he/she never noticed
>>>before.
>>>
>>>Thank you for your insights Mark. I never realized that the speaker
>>>output was
>>>in AC current before.
>>>
>>>DBF
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------
>>>From: AA6DX <[email protected]>
>>>To: [email protected]
>>>Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>>>Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM
>>>
>>>Hello Duane.  No, it is AC.   Direct Current would do like your
>>>battery did,
>>>causing the speaker diaphragm to move in ONE direction, which may
>>>make a
>>>"pop", but not "audio".  It is very convenient for the audiophile to
>>>use the
>>>markings as you have noted, and that is correct.  However, if you
>>>have a
>>>stereo set up, just try this.  REVERSE the wires to both speakers.
>>>You will
>>>not hear a difference.   REVERSE only one.  Then, you will get the
>>>KARAOKE
>>>effect, where parts of the song are "nulled", due to the
>>>out-of-phase
>>>presentation of the sound waves. You will sometimes hear this on an
>>>FM
>>>stereo broadcast, when the engineer mis-wired the hook ups to the
>>>board and
>>>created this "null", which creates a funny sound, and if the input
>>>is
>>>actually MONO, will drop the audio output quite low.
>>>I am not trying to disagree with anybody, just sharing with this
>>>great
>>>group.  I hope Robert McKee understands that!  After all, I hate to
>>>think
>>>all my years of being in the stereo business, and then as a
>>>broadcast
>>>engineer, do not go to waste!    Cheers .. hope all had a happy
>>>fourth of
>>>july weekend, we did here, now ready for wife and I celebrating our
>>>number
>>>forty three anniversary, on the tenth.   Mark
>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <[email protected]>
>>>To: <[email protected]>
>>>Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:09 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bob,
>>>>
>>>>I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not
>>>
>>>permit a
>>>
>>>>discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree
>>>
>>>and
>>>still not
>>>
>>>>short circuits.
>>>>
>>>>In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should
>>>
>>>go to
>>>the
>>>
>>>>positive terminal on the speaker.
>>>>
>>>>Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----------
>>>>From: Robert    J. McKee <[email protected]>
>>>>To: [email protected]; [email protected]
>>>>Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>>>>Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM
>>>>
>>>>Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
>>>>from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think
>>>
>>>about
>>>
>>>>that for a bit before flaming.
>>>>Bob McKee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>[Original Message]
>>>>>From: AA6DX <[email protected]>
>>>>>To: <[email protected]>
>>>>>Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>>>>>
>>>>>I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put
>>>>
>>>together.
>>>
>>>>>There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.
>>>>
>>>That is
>>>
>>>>>factory, Duane.
>>>>>As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know,
>>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers
>>>>
>>>are the
>>>
>>>>>same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are
>>>>
>>>dealing with
>>>
>>>>>alternating current here, but they both need to putting the
>>>>
>>>oooom in the
>>>
>>>>>oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later
>>>>
>>>years,
>>>
>>>>when
>>>>
>>>>>replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the
>>>>
>>>grilles to
>>>
>>>>>re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <[email protected]>
>>>>>To: <[email protected]>
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
>>>>>Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood
>>>>>
>>>and took a
>>>
>>>>>serious
>>>>>
>>>>>>squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six
>>>>>
>>>staples, three
>>>
>>>>>down each
>>>>>
>>>>>>side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill
>>>>>
>>>material, the
>>>
>>>>wood
>>>>
>>>>>panel
>>>>>
>>>>>>behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can
>>>>>
>>>not state
>>>
>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>>this
>>>>>
>>>>>>is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back,
>>>>>
>>>with two
>>>
>>>>>speaker
>>>>>
>>>>>>terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just
>>>>>
>>>to their
>>>
>>>>>right,
>>>>>
>>>>>>the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker
>>>>>
>>>cone,
>>>
>>>>what
>>>>
>>>>>is it?
>>>>>
>>>>>>Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today
>>>>>
>>>with a
>>>
>>>>battery
>>>>
>>>>>to be
>>>>>
>>>>>>sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Duane W8DBF
>>>>>
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