From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  1 02:37:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Tue Jul  1 01:37:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Altec Madrid
References: <200306301814.h5UIEtV23294@hades.usol.com> <003d01c33f55$b69b31a0$1f2ff7a5@b5z1q8> <3F00CC29.9090001@csnsys.com>
Message-ID: <3F011ADF.7010807@csnsys.com>

Anyone heard of a Altec speaker system known as the Madrid?. It 
has a 15 inch woofer and a 4 inch something else in a cabinet, 
wood finished about 3x3x2 ft.

WBob


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  1 03:02:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Tue Jul  1 02:02:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re: Altec Madrid
References: <200306301814.h5UIEtV23294@hades.usol.com> <003d01c33f55$b69b31a0$1f2ff7a5@b5z1q8> <3F00CC29.9090001@csnsys.com> <3F011ADF.7010807@csnsys.com>
Message-ID: <3F0122E8.3010605@csnsys.com>


WBob wrote:
> Anyone heard of a Altec speaker system known as the Madrid?. It has a 15 
> inch woofer and a 4 inch something else in a cabinet, wood finished 
> about 3x3x2 ft.
> 
> WBob
> 
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 17:46:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Thu Jul  3 16:46:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
Message-ID: <200307032041.h63Kf1V24944@hades.usol.com>

	
Hi All, 	
	
I just received a pair of AR-4 speakers. There are no markings of any kind to
indicate the polarity of the speaker terminal screws. Looking at the rear,
standing vertical, tweeter adjustment shaft to the right: what polarity is the
top terminal? 	
	
If anyone has any specifications on these speakers, such as:	
	
type of tweeter	
size of mid range/woofer (same speaker) 	
crossover frequency 	
actual frequency response	
minimum continuous RMS required to drive them    	
	
Thanks guys. 	
	
DBF 	


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 18:43:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net)
Date: Thu Jul  3 17:43:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
Message-ID: <20030703.174514.-567439.0.manualman@juno.com>

Actually it doesn't make a difference as long as both speakers internally
are wired the same to the terminals. Remember you not running DC voltage
to the speakers. Here's a way to test to see if both terminals of each
speaker are wired the same internally to the enclosure. Connect the top
terminal of one speaker to the left channel, positive marked,
amplifier/receiver speaker terminal; connect the top terminal of the
other speaker to the right channel, positive marked, amplifier/receiver
terminal. Connect the unused terminal of each speaker to each other. Run
some audio through the amplifier/receiver so that's it's audible in the
speakers. Put the amplifier/receiver in the monaural position and adjust
the balance control to roughly mid-center. If the speakers are wired the
same ( top terminal of left is the same as top terminal of right ) then
you should find a spot, when adjusting the balance control, where the
audible sound of both speakers is minimal or very low. Mark the top
terminals with a plus, a red dot, a happy face, etc. If the speaker
terminals of both speakers are not wired the same, rotating the balance
control will not provide very low audio. i.e. they will be out of phase.
Pete

On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:40:56 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
<dfischer@usol.com> writes:
> 
>         
> Hi All,         
>         
> I just received a pair of AR-4 speakers. There are no markings of 
> any kind to
> indicate the polarity of the speaker terminal screws. Looking at the 
> rear,
> standing vertical, tweeter adjustment shaft to the right: what 
> polarity is the
> top terminal?         
>         
> If anyone has any specifications on these speakers, such 
> as:        
>         
> type of tweeter        
> size of mid range/woofer (same speaker)         
> crossover frequency         
> actual frequency response        
> minimum continuous RMS required to drive them            
>         
> Thanks guys.         
>         
> DBF         

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 19:05:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Thu Jul  3 18:05:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
Message-ID: <200307032200.h63M05V30260@hades.usol.com>

Good idea Pete. Thank you. 	
	
I usually use a 1.5 vdc battery across the terminals to determine phase
polarity. However this requires one to be able to see, or feel, the cone of the
speaker. If it moves in, reverse the polarity so that it moves outward. But
there is no apparent way into these AR-4's! I really do not want to waste some
of my Black Cat firecrackers on this project!  	
	
Hope to hear you on the Net Sunday Pete - 	
	
DBF 	
  
--------
From: manualman@juno.com
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
Date: Thursday, July 03, 2003 5:45 PM

Actually it doesn't make a difference as long as both speakers internally
are wired the same to the terminals. Remember you not running DC voltage
to the speakers. Here's a way to test to see if both terminals of each
speaker are wired the same internally to the enclosure. Connect the top
terminal of one speaker to the left channel, positive marked,
amplifier/receiver speaker terminal; connect the top terminal of the
other speaker to the right channel, positive marked, amplifier/receiver
terminal. Connect the unused terminal of each speaker to each other. Run
some audio through the amplifier/receiver so that's it's audible in the
speakers. Put the amplifier/receiver in the monaural position and adjust
the balance control to roughly mid-center. If the speakers are wired the
same ( top terminal of left is the same as top terminal of right ) then
you should find a spot, when adjusting the balance control, where the
audible sound of both speakers is minimal or very low. Mark the top
terminals with a plus, a red dot, a happy face, etc. If the speaker
terminals of both speakers are not wired the same, rotating the balance
control will not provide very low audio. i.e. they will be out of phase.
Pete

On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:40:56 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
<dfischer@usol.com> writes:
> 
>         
> Hi All,         
>         
> I just received a pair of AR-4 speakers. There are no markings of 
> any kind to
> indicate the polarity of the speaker terminal screws. Looking at the 
> rear,
> standing vertical, tweeter adjustment shaft to the right: what 
> polarity is the
> top terminal?         
>         
> If anyone has any specifications on these speakers, such 
> as:        
>         
> type of tweeter        
> size of mid range/woofer (same speaker)         
> crossover frequency         
> actual frequency response        
> minimum continuous RMS required to drive them            
>         
> Thanks guys.         
>         
> DBF         

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 19:09:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert    J. McKee)
Date: Thu Jul  3 18:09:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
Message-ID: <410-2200374322917320@mindspring.com>

The easiest way to check phase is with a C or D cell and a
couple wires.  Apply the connection to each speaker with
+ and - to the same relative terminals.  If wired correctly
they should both produce either an outward or inward 
movement of the woofer cone.  It is quick and error-
free.
Bob McKee



> [Original Message]
> From: <manualman@juno.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Date: 7/3/03 5:43:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
>
> Actually it doesn't make a difference as long as both speakers internally
> are wired the same to the terminals. Remember you not running DC voltage
> to the speakers. Here's a way to test to see if both terminals of each
> speaker are wired the same internally to the enclosure. Connect the top
> terminal of one speaker to the left channel, positive marked,
> amplifier/receiver speaker terminal; connect the top terminal of the
> other speaker to the right channel, positive marked, amplifier/receiver
> terminal. Connect the unused terminal of each speaker to each other. Run
> some audio through the amplifier/receiver so that's it's audible in the
> speakers. Put the amplifier/receiver in the monaural position and adjust
> the balance control to roughly mid-center. If the speakers are wired the
> same ( top terminal of left is the same as top terminal of right ) then
> you should find a spot, when adjusting the balance control, where the
> audible sound of both speakers is minimal or very low. Mark the top
> terminals with a plus, a red dot, a happy face, etc. If the speaker
> terminals of both speakers are not wired the same, rotating the balance
> control will not provide very low audio. i.e. they will be out of phase.
> Pete
>
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:40:56 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
> <dfischer@usol.com> writes:
> > 
> >         
> > Hi All,         
> >         
> > I just received a pair of AR-4 speakers. There are no markings of 
> > any kind to
> > indicate the polarity of the speaker terminal screws. Looking at the 
> > rear,
> > standing vertical, tweeter adjustment shaft to the right: what 
> > polarity is the
> > top terminal?         
> >         
> > If anyone has any specifications on these speakers, such 
> > as:        
> >         
> > type of tweeter        
> > size of mid range/woofer (same speaker)         
> > crossover frequency         
> > actual frequency response        
> > minimum continuous RMS required to drive them            
> >         
> > Thanks guys.         
> >         
> > DBF         
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 19:19:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Gerry Steffens)
Date: Thu Jul  3 18:19:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <200307032200.h63M05V30260@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c341b0$56760310$6500a8c0@cb450403a>

Depending on the grill cloth or equivalent, I usually use a needle, wire
or some adequate length small rod to stand on the cone through the front
of the enclosure.  One can then observe or feel the motion of the
indicator when the battery is applied as Duane suggests.

Gerry

Collecting & Restoring since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.
Rochester, MN  


-----Original Message-----
From: vintage-audio-admin@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:vintage-audio-admin@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Duane Fischer,
W8DBF
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 5:00 PM
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle

Good idea Pete. Thank you. 	
	
I usually use a 1.5 vdc battery across the terminals to determine phase
polarity. However this requires one to be able to see, or feel, the cone
of the
speaker. If it moves in, reverse the polarity so that it moves outward.
But
there is no apparent way into these AR-4's! I really do not want to
waste some
of my Black Cat firecrackers on this project!  	
	
Hope to hear you on the Net Sunday Pete - 	
	
DBF 	
  
--------
From: manualman@juno.com
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
Date: Thursday, July 03, 2003 5:45 PM

Actually it doesn't make a difference as long as both speakers
internally
are wired the same to the terminals. Remember you not running DC voltage
to the speakers. Here's a way to test to see if both terminals of each
speaker are wired the same internally to the enclosure. Connect the top
terminal of one speaker to the left channel, positive marked,
amplifier/receiver speaker terminal; connect the top terminal of the
other speaker to the right channel, positive marked, amplifier/receiver
terminal. Connect the unused terminal of each speaker to each other. Run
some audio through the amplifier/receiver so that's it's audible in the
speakers. Put the amplifier/receiver in the monaural position and adjust
the balance control to roughly mid-center. If the speakers are wired the
same ( top terminal of left is the same as top terminal of right ) then
you should find a spot, when adjusting the balance control, where the
audible sound of both speakers is minimal or very low. Mark the top
terminals with a plus, a red dot, a happy face, etc. If the speaker
terminals of both speakers are not wired the same, rotating the balance
control will not provide very low audio. i.e. they will be out of phase.
Pete

On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:40:56 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
<dfischer@usol.com> writes:
> 
>         
> Hi All,         
>         
> I just received a pair of AR-4 speakers. There are no markings of 
> any kind to
> indicate the polarity of the speaker terminal screws. Looking at the 
> rear,
> standing vertical, tweeter adjustment shaft to the right: what 
> polarity is the
> top terminal?         
>         
> If anyone has any specifications on these speakers, such 
> as:        
>         
> type of tweeter        
> size of mid range/woofer (same speaker)         
> crossover frequency         
> actual frequency response        
> minimum continuous RMS required to drive them            
>         
> Thanks guys.         
>         
> DBF         

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 19:24:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net)
Date: Thu Jul  3 18:24:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
Message-ID: <20030703.182623.-883635.0.manualman@juno.com>

I never liked running any DC into my speakers to stimulate movement plus,
as you mentioned, there are some enclosures where you either can't pull
the front off to feel the woofer or it's difficult to do.
I should be around Sunday.
Pete

On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 18:00:02 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
<dfischer@usol.com> writes:
> Good idea Pete. Thank you.         
>         
> I usually use a 1.5 vdc battery across the terminals to determine 
> phase
> polarity. However this requires one to be able to see, or feel, the 
> cone of the
> speaker. If it moves in, reverse the polarity so that it moves 
> outward. But
> there is no apparent way into these AR-4's! I really do not want to 
> waste some
> of my Black Cat firecrackers on this project!          
>         
> Hope to hear you on the Net Sunday Pete -         
>         
> DBF         
>   
> --------
> From: manualman@juno.com
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
> Date: Thursday, July 03, 2003 5:45 PM
> 
> Actually it doesn't make a difference as long as both speakers 
> internally
> are wired the same to the terminals. Remember you not running DC 
> voltage
> to the speakers. Here's a way to test to see if both terminals of 
> each
> speaker are wired the same internally to the enclosure. Connect the 
> top
> terminal of one speaker to the left channel, positive marked,
> amplifier/receiver speaker terminal; connect the top terminal of 
> the
> other speaker to the right channel, positive marked, 
> amplifier/receiver
> terminal. Connect the unused terminal of each speaker to each other. 
> Run
> some audio through the amplifier/receiver so that's it's audible in 
> the
> speakers. Put the amplifier/receiver in the monaural position and 
> adjust
> the balance control to roughly mid-center. If the speakers are wired 
> the
> same ( top terminal of left is the same as top terminal of right ) 
> then
> you should find a spot, when adjusting the balance control, where 
> the
> audible sound of both speakers is minimal or very low. Mark the top
> terminals with a plus, a red dot, a happy face, etc. If the speaker
> terminals of both speakers are not wired the same, rotating the 
> balance
> control will not provide very low audio. i.e. they will be out of 
> phase.
> Pete
> 
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:40:56 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
> <dfischer@usol.com> writes:
> > 
> >         
> > Hi All,         
> >         
> > I just received a pair of AR-4 speakers. There are no markings of 
> 
> > any kind to
> > indicate the polarity of the speaker terminal screws. Looking at 
> the 
> > rear,
> > standing vertical, tweeter adjustment shaft to the right: what 
> > polarity is the
> > top terminal?         
> >         
> > If anyone has any specifications on these speakers, such 
> > as:        
> >         
> > type of tweeter        
> > size of mid range/woofer (same speaker)         
> > crossover frequency         
> > actual frequency response        
> > minimum continuous RMS required to drive them            
> >         
> > Thanks guys.         
> >         
> > DBF         

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 19:27:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net)
Date: Thu Jul  3 18:27:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
Message-ID: <20030703.182921.-883635.1.manualman@juno.com>

My luck, I'd run the needle, wire, etc. right through the cone.
Pete
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:13:26 -0500 "Gerry Steffens"
<gsteffens@charter.net> writes:
> Depending on the grill cloth or equivalent, I usually use a needle, 
> wire
> or some adequate length small rod to stand on the cone through the 
> front
> of the enclosure.  One can then observe or feel the motion of the
> indicator when the battery is applied as Duane suggests.
> 
> Gerry
> 
> Collecting & Restoring since 1959
> Gerald Steffens P.E.
> Rochester, MN  
> 
>

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 20:53:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (AA6DX)
Date: Thu Jul  3 19:53:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
References: <200307032041.h63Kf1V24944@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <022001c341bd$9051cc10$7662ce3f@desk>

The Acoustic Research model AR-4X was a 2-way speaker, using the acoustic
suspension system popular with AR and others.  It was a low efficiency
system, which the makers of the amplifiers loved!  Others of that sort
included KLH, Dyanaco, Rectilinear, Wharfdale, and others .. as opposed to
Electro Voice, JBL. et al.   The AR 4  crossover was 1200 hertz.  Impedance
was 8 ohms, more or less.  Weighed 23 pounds, and the manufacturer claimed
would work with 15 watts, but in my opinion, that was not genuine.  Fifty
watts or better made this inefficient design do what the did best, which is
to sound great!  The woofer was eight inches, and used a direct radiator 2
and one half inch tweeter.  Hope that helps, Duane!    Mark
aa6dx@arrl.net

@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 1:40 PMd
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle


>
>
> Hi All,
> AR> If anyone has any specifications on these speakers, such as:
>
> type of tweeter
> size of mid range/woofer (same speaker)
> crossover frequency
> actual frequency response
> minimum continuous RMS required to drive them
>
> Thanks guys.
>
> DBF



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 21:12:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Thu Jul  3 20:12:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Problems With AR-4's
Message-ID: <200307040007.h6407IV06439@hades.usol.com>

	
Greetings, 	
	
The variable resistor potentiometer that controls the tweeter is not functioning
on one cabinet and intermittent on the other. The question is: how do I get
inside the cabinet? No screws anywhere.	
	
I am guessing here, perhaps totally wrong. There are staples on the front grill
cloth that I can remove. Are there screws beneath the cloth?	
	
Any help anyone can offer will be appreciated. Thanks. 	
	
Duane Fischer, W8DBF	
 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 21:37:02 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (AA6DX)
Date: Thu Jul  3 20:37:02 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Problems With AR-4's
References: <200307040007.h6407IV06439@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <034901c341c3$bfb45300$7662ce3f@desk>

Hmmmmmm.  Part of that acoustic suspention system.  The way in is by
removing the woofer, as I recall.   Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 5:07 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Problems With AR-4's


>
>
> Greetings,
>
> The variable resistor potentiometer that controls the tweeter is not
functioning
> on one cabinet and intermittent on the other. The question is: how do I
get
> inside the cabinet? No screws anywhere.
>
> I am guessing here, perhaps totally wrong. There are staples on the front
grill
> cloth that I can remove. Are there screws beneath the cloth?
>
> Any help anyone can offer will be appreciated. Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 21:44:05 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Roy Morgan)
Date: Thu Jul  3 20:44:05 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Problems With AR-4's
In-Reply-To: <200307040007.h6407IV06439@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20030703203745.040029d0@mail01.amdiac.net>

>  how do I get
>inside the cabinet? No screws anywhere.

Duane,

My guess is that you remove the woofer after prying the grille cloth frame 
out of the cabinet.

I am not sure since I have never had one apart.

Roy


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 23:58:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Thu Jul  3 22:58:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Problems With AR-4's
Message-ID: <200307040253.h642rCV18414@hades.usol.com>

Mark, 	
	
There is no way to get into the interior to remove anything and no screws on the
outside to remove. By all appearances, it is forever sealed.	


----------
From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Problems With AR-4's
Date: Thursday, July 03, 2003 8:32 PM

Hmmmmmm.  Part of that acoustic suspention system.  The way in is by
removing the woofer, as I recall.   Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 5:07 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Problems With AR-4's


>
>
> Greetings,
>
> The variable resistor potentiometer that controls the tweeter is not
functioning
> on one cabinet and intermittent on the other. The question is: how do I
get
> inside the cabinet? No screws anywhere.
>
> I am guessing here, perhaps totally wrong. There are staples on the front
grill
> cloth that I can remove. Are there screws beneath the cloth?
>
> Any help anyone can offer will be appreciated. Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul  3 23:59:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Thu Jul  3 22:59:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Problems With AR-4's
Message-ID: <200307040253.h642rFV18417@hades.usol.com>

Not possible Roy, short of destroying the cabinet itself. 	


----------
From: Roy Morgan <goodguy3@amdiac.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Problems With AR-4's
Date: Thursday, July 03, 2003 8:38 PM


>  how do I get
>inside the cabinet? No screws anywhere.

Duane,

My guess is that you remove the woofer after prying the grille cloth frame 
out of the cabinet.

I am not sure since I have never had one apart.

Roy

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Fri Jul  4 00:06:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert Nickels)
Date: Thu Jul  3 23:06:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR-4 Puzzle
References: <200307032041.h63Kf1V24944@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <012501c341d8$865589c0$6401a8c0@pavillion>

I keep thinking I've seen some info on the AR-4 speakers on the web
somewhere but haven't found it yet for you, Duane.  But in searching around
I did find something pretty interesting about Edgar Vilchur, a teacher at
NYU who invented the acoustic suspension loudspeaker in 1954.  Here's are a
couple of snippets from the story:

Villchur took his new design to two speaker manufacturers but they were not
interested. One of his former students, Henry Kloss, was interested. "Kloss,
who was building Baruch-Lang loudspeakers for mail order sale, had invited
Villchur to develop his loudspeaker design in his Cambridge shop.
Previously, Villchur believed that creating a commercial product would
require the resources of a major loudspeaker manufacturer. 'After these two
rebuffs, and in particular, because of the nature of the rebuffs, I changed
my mind,' said Villchur. In the spring of 1954, Villchur drove Kloss up to
his lab in Woodstock, describing the theory of his new enclosure design
along the way. After they arrived, Villchur played some recordings,
including an E. Power Biggs LP with copious low-frequency content. After
hearing it, Kloss exclaimed, 'That's it!' and again offered the use of his
Cambridge loft to manufacture acoustic suspension loudspeakers. 'And thus,
AR was born,' observed Villchur."

Acoustic Research in Cambridge "started with $4000 that Kloss raised from
his friends, plus $2000 from Villchur. Since they didn't have the
capitalization to hire a production engineer to convert the prototype into a
production model, Kloss worked out the details. 'Henry was responsible for
at least 75 percent of the production desing of the AR-1. The rest was done
by me and by Tony Hoffman, a physicist friend of Henry.' They assembled
several AR-1 loudspeakers in time for the New York Audio Show in September
1954. Although the critics were impressed with the clean 32-Hz organ pedal
tones that the AR-1 could reproduce, they did not quite get the point. 'One
critic commented,' If your space is limited and you're looking for a small
speaker, you should consider the AR-1 very seriously. It's a fine speaker
for its size.' Julian Hirsch, who at the time published the Audio League
Report, wrote that 'the AR-1 had the lowest electroacoustic efficiency of
any loudspeaker on the market - but at 25 Hz and below, it was more
efficient that the Klipschorn, which had the highest efficiency of those
tested.' Hirsch also said that the AR-1 'established a new industry standard
for low distortion bass.' Eventually, the industry began to realize that the
smaller size of the cabinet was only a secondary advantage of the extended
bass response."

Villchur sponsored concerts at AR to demonstrate the accuracy and low
distortion of his speakers. "He placed the musicians (the Fine Arts String
Quartet, among others) on the stage, with a pair of AR-3 loudspeakers behind
them. At various points, they would stop playing and the taped performance
would take over. Most reviewers of the day could not tell the difference
between the live and recorded sound. 'I thought that these concerts defined
what we meant by high fidelity,' commented Villchur with pride. He took care
to use the best equipment possible at the time, including an Ampex tape
deck, two 60-watt Dynakit amplifiers, and number 18 zip cord."

That last comment made me chuckle - how could they ever have fooled anyone
without oxygen-free cable and $100 AC plugs?

73, Bob W9RAN (who still uses #18 zip cord)




From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Fri Jul  4 02:03:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Fri Jul  4 01:03:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] History
References: <200307032041.h63Kf1V24944@hades.usol.com> <012501c341d8$865589c0$6401a8c0@pavillion>
Message-ID: <3F050995.5050604@csnsys.com>

Interesting reading..

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/soulofsound/ch1pt1.htm

WBob


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Jul  6 19:27:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Sun Jul  6 18:27:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
Message-ID: <200307062221.h66MLdV17041@hades.usol.com>

	
Hi All, 	

	Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and took a serious
squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples, three down each
side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill material, the wood panel
behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not state that this
is factory, but it certainly appears that way. 	
	
When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with two speaker
terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to their right,
the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive. 	
	
Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker cone, what is it?
Is it supposed to be somewhat soft? 	
	
FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with a battery to be
sure. 	
	
Thanks. 	
	
Duane W8DBF	
    

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 01:21:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Rudy Rutenber)
Date: Mon Jul  7 00:21:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] contact Duane
Message-ID: <001c01c3443e$6fe47490$41c7fea9@rudy>

Duane, please contact me via email.  sent many emails no reply.
Rudy


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 13:18:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Jul  7 12:18:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Tweeter Pots On AR-4's
Message-ID: <200307071613.h67GDHV22660@hades.usol.com>

	
Does anyone know for sure the value of the potentiometer that controls the
tweeter on the AR-4's?		
	
Thanks. 
	
Duane W8DBF

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 13:18:02 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Jul  7 12:18:02 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] roduction Year Of AR-4
Message-ID: <200307071613.h67GDIV22663@hades.usol.com>

	
When was the AR-4 first produced?	
	
When was the AR-4xa produced, 1966? 	
	
Thanks. 	
	
Duane W8DBF	


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 15:32:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (AA6DX)
Date: Mon Jul  7 14:32:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR History
Message-ID: <073501c344b5$63a939f0$7662ce3f@desk>

AR-1   1954
AR-2    1956
AR-2A  1957
AR-3    1958.
The AR-3 is shown in the Smithsonian Museum.
Note:  Teledyne purchased the Acoustic Research company in 1967.
------------------------------
Here is some history about AR.  More to come.  Cheers,  Mark --- Eureka, Far Northern California

This history was provided by Howard Ferstler, author of: 
        High Fidelity Audio Video Systems
        High Definition Compact Disc Recordings
        The Home Theater Companion
        The Digital Audio Music List

Many thanks to Howard for getting a much more detailed history online! 

There are people out there who know a lot more about the history of AR than I do, but here is a stab at providing some fairly detailed tidbits.

The first AR speaker was the AR-1. It was a rather large bookshelf model and used a 12-inch, mostly enclosed-air-controlled (acoustic suspension) woofer. The tweeter/midrange was a modified 8-inch unit (from GE or General Radio or RCA, I cannot remember exactly). So, the system was a two-way model that was able to go into the deep bass range better than just about anything else out there. In addition to that superior bass performance, it was small and that mattered a lot in an era when stereo was just starting to appear. If it had any drawbacks, those involved its need for a lot of amplifier power in an era when a lot of amplifier power could cost real money.

The AR-2 came shortly later. It was in a smaller box, had a lighter 10-inch woofer and two 5-inch cone midrange/tweeters. The crossover point was at 2 kHz, whereas that of the AR-1 was at about 1 kHz, I think, although I could be wrong about that one. The AR-2's big advantage was that it cost quite a bit less than the AR-1 and it did not need quite as much amp power. Its disadvantage was that it could not go as low into the bass.

Both systems were given a shot in the sales arm by a review in Consumer Reports magazine in 1958 that showed them and some similarly configured KLH models to be superior to just about anything else available, particularly in the bass.
(See below for more on KLH.)

Obviously, the AR-1's 8-inch tweeter/midrange was a serious compromise, at least in the top octave, and even in the upper midrange. Edgar Villchur, the man in charge of the company, was aware of that. So, once they had the necessary capital he came up with the AR-3, which had the first dome tweeter and dome midrange along with the AR-1's 12-inch woofer. 

A dome's big advantage, at least at that time, was not so much an inherently superior dispersion compared to a same-sized cone (a cone of the same size should disperse nearly as well), as it was power handling. A dome would ordinarily have a larger voice coil than a cone of similar diameter, and that made it more efficient. A bit later on, I believe the AR-3 was given a more modern, easy-to-build version of that original 12-inch woofer.

Backing up a bit, I should note that while the first AR-1 was initially designed (and patented by) by Ed Villchur, the guy who actually came up with the final-design-version of the woofer was Henry Kloss, who made it possible for the unit to be assembly line produced. Villchur held the patent, of course, and Kloss was more or less second in command when AR first got going. 

Fairly early on, they split (Kloss was company presidential material, not vice-presidential material), with Henry starting KLH with two other gentlemen. Part of the separation deal was that KLH got rights to use the acoustic-suspension principle that Villchur had patented. KLH went on to make some very good loudspeaker systems, and the two of the best, the KLH-6 and KLH-4, were among those that Consumer Reports lionized in 1958, along with the AR-1 and AR-2.

The AR-3 was the company's top system for several years and a bit later the AR-2a joined the lineup. The AR-2a added the AR-3 tweeter to the existing AR-2 system. The tweeter allowed the cheaper system to deliver genuine high frequencies. So, then we had three systems in the company offerings: AR-3, AR-2a, and AR-2. At that time the company was also producing the AR Turntable, which Villchur designed.

Still later on, the AR-3 was replaced by the AR-3a (although the AR-3 remained in the line up for some time after the 3a appeared), which had the same woofer as the AR-3. However, the tweeter and midrange were changed, as were the crossover points, which were all lower than what the AR-3 had: 575 and 5000 Hz, rather than 1000 and 7500 Hz. The later AR-2ax also got the AR-3a tweeter, plus a new midrange driver that was different (much cheaper) from that of the AR-3 or 3a.

The AR-3a was designed mainly by a very competent man named Chuck McShane, under Roy Allison's direction. Roy had joined AR in 1959, after Kloss left, and became Villchur's plant manager. Prior to that he had been a contributing editor at High Fidelity magazine, along with none other than Gordon Holt.

So, after the AR-3a we had the AR-2x and AR-2ax, plus the AR-4, AR-4x, AR-5, AR-6, AR-7, and AR-LST (the latter being the only one of the group that was more potent and more expensive than the 3a), each of which was designed under the supervision of or else fully designed by Allison. Allison also was in charge of getting the AR Amp, AR Tuner, and AR Receiver into production. Much of the work on the latter was done by Robert Grodinsky.

By the time these later systems (including the electronics) started to show up, Villchur had sold AR to Teledyne, and Roy became vice president, with Abe Hoffman serving as president of the AR branch of the corporation. Under their command company profits and sales doubled. However, the company was still losing market share to outfits that were making cheaper speakers, and so a new man was brought in by Teledyne to replace Hoffman.

A number of years later, after his contract ran out, Allison left the company and those who were left behind produced the AR-8, AR-LST/2, AR-9, etc., none of which Roy had anything to do with.

Allison had been doing research on speaker/room interactions, and after he left AR his knowledge became the foundation for what eventually became Allison Acoustics. His research was partially the a result of what had happened when Consumer Reports gave the AR-3a a so-so review in the late 1960s, and partially because he was aware that much was to be learned about mid-bass boundary artifacts and the relationship between reverberant-field and direct-field sound in home-listening rooms.


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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 17:57:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (AA6DX)
Date: Mon Jul  7 16:57:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
References: <200307062221.h66MLdV17041@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <001901c344c9$35e6a890$7662ce3f@desk>

I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put together.
There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  That is
factory, Duane.
As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, the
polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers are the
same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are dealing with
alternating current here, but they both need to putting the oooom in the
oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later years, when
replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the grilles to
re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info


>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and took a
serious
> squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples, three
down each
> side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill material, the wood
panel
> behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not state that
this
> is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
>
> When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with two
speaker
> terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to their
right,
> the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
>
> Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker cone, what
is it?
> Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
>
> FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with a battery
to be
> sure.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane W8DBF



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 18:05:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert    J. McKee)
Date: Mon Jul  7 17:05:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
Message-ID: <410-2200371721459740@mindspring.com>

Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think about
that for a bit before flaming.
Bob McKee



> [Original Message]
> From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>
> I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put together.
> There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  That is
> factory, Duane.
> As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, the
> polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers are the
> same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are dealing with
> alternating current here, but they both need to putting the oooom in the
> oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later years,
when
> replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the grilles to
> re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and took a
> serious
> > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples, three
> down each
> > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill material, the
wood
> panel
> > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not state
that
> this
> > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> >
> > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with two
> speaker
> > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to their
> right,
> > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> >
> > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker cone,
what
> is it?
> > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> >
> > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with a
battery
> to be
> > sure.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Duane W8DBF
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 18:24:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (AA6DX)
Date: Mon Jul  7 17:24:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
References: <410-2200371721459740@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <006d01c344cd$28468300$7662ce3f@desk>

Well, Bobby .. I was not flaming anybody or anything.  I don't believe in
flaming, as you seem to do.  Just a statement of fact.   The polarity of the
speaker is NOT IMPORTANT,  as long as, in stereo or multiple speaker
applications, the polarity is properly observed.  If you are dealing with
aONE speaker monaural system, it flat does not matter which way the wires
are connected, UNLESS IT IS IN AN AUTOMOBILE, USING A COMMON GROUND, or like
that.. That's all.  Think you are a little confused, but, again, not flaming
you either.  Now, when you get into the "gizzards" of the speaker system,
the polarity becomes quite critical, as you connect the crossover,(s), and
the various drivers. Ya gotta keep them aligned.   You do know that audio is
Alternating Current, n'est-ce-pas?
Mark Nelson

From: "Robert J. McKee" <mckee137@mindspring.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>; <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info


> Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
> from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think about
> that for a bit before flaming.
> Bob McKee
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > To: <



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 18:44:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (AA6DX)
Date: Mon Jul  7 17:44:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Early AR Pricing
Message-ID: <001801c344d0$312ee8b0$7662ce3f@desk>

In the 1959 Radio Shack  "GUIDE TO ELECTRONIC BUYING", the Acoustic =
Research AR-1 cost $185 each, in Mahogony or Birch.
The AR-2 was $102 in walnut, $111 in korina  (what the heck is korina?)
Speakers were also available in unfinished cabinets.
Also available, not well known, was the AR-1W --- the woofer only =
version of the AR-1, for $145.. I have some pix of the ads for that.
There were various prices for various finishes.  Interesting!
Mark


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multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 20:16:04 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Jul  7 19:16:04 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR History
Message-ID: <200307072310.h67NArV22395@hades.usol.com>

Didn't somebody just purchase AR, again, a merger or? 	


----------
From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] AR History
Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 2:27 PM

AR-1   1954
AR-2    1956
AR-2A  1957
AR-3    1958.
The AR-3 is shown in the Smithsonian Museum.
Note:  Teledyne purchased the Acoustic Research company in 1967.
------------------------------
Here is some history about AR.  More to come.  Cheers,  Mark --- Eureka, Far
Northern California

This history was provided by Howard Ferstler, author of: 
        High Fidelity Audio Video Systems
        High Definition Compact Disc Recordings
        The Home Theater Companion
        The Digital Audio Music List

Many thanks to Howard for getting a much more detailed history online! 

There are people out there who know a lot more about the history of AR than I
do, but here is a stab at providing some fairly detailed tidbits.

The first AR speaker was the AR-1. It was a rather large bookshelf model and
used a 12-inch, mostly enclosed-air-controlled (acoustic suspension) woofer. The
tweeter/midrange was a modified 8-inch unit (from GE or General Radio or RCA, I
cannot remember exactly). So, the system was a two-way model that was able to go
into the deep bass range better than just about anything else out there. In
addition to that superior bass performance, it was small and that mattered a lot
in an era when stereo was just starting to appear. If it had any drawbacks,
those involved its need for a lot of amplifier power in an era when a lot of
amplifier power could cost real money.

The AR-2 came shortly later. It was in a smaller box, had a lighter 10-inch
woofer and two 5-inch cone midrange/tweeters. The crossover point was at 2 kHz,
whereas that of the AR-1 was at about 1 kHz, I think, although I could be wrong
about that one. The AR-2's big advantage was that it cost quite a bit less than
the AR-1 and it did not need quite as much amp power. Its disadvantage was that
it could not go as low into the bass.

Both systems were given a shot in the sales arm by a review in Consumer Reports
magazine in 1958 that showed them and some similarly configured KLH models to be
superior to just about anything else available, particularly in the bass.
(See below for more on KLH.)

Obviously, the AR-1's 8-inch tweeter/midrange was a serious compromise, at least
in the top octave, and even in the upper midrange. Edgar Villchur, the man in
charge of the company, was aware of that. So, once they had the necessary
capital he came up with the AR-3, which had the first dome tweeter and dome
midrange along with the AR-1's 12-inch woofer. 

A dome's big advantage, at least at that time, was not so much an inherently
superior dispersion compared to a same-sized cone (a cone of the same size
should disperse nearly as well), as it was power handling. A dome would
ordinarily have a larger voice coil than a cone of similar diameter, and that
made it more efficient. A bit later on, I believe the AR-3 was given a more
modern, easy-to-build version of that original 12-inch woofer.

Backing up a bit, I should note that while the first AR-1 was initially designed
(and patented by) by Ed Villchur, the guy who actually came up with the
final-design-version of the woofer was Henry Kloss, who made it possible for the
unit to be assembly line produced. Villchur held the patent, of course, and
Kloss was more or less second in command when AR first got going. 

Fairly early on, they split (Kloss was company presidential material, not
vice-presidential material), with Henry starting KLH with two other gentlemen.
Part of the separation deal was that KLH got rights to use the
acoustic-suspension principle that Villchur had patented. KLH went on to make
some very good loudspeaker systems, and the two of the best, the KLH-6 and
KLH-4, were among those that Consumer Reports lionized in 1958, along with the
AR-1 and AR-2.

The AR-3 was the company's top system for several years and a bit later the
AR-2a joined the lineup. The AR-2a added the AR-3 tweeter to the existing AR-2
system. The tweeter allowed the cheaper system to deliver genuine high
frequencies. So, then we had three systems in the company offerings: AR-3,
AR-2a, and AR-2. At that time the company was also producing the AR Turntable,
which Villchur designed.

Still later on, the AR-3 was replaced by the AR-3a (although the AR-3 remained
in the line up for some time after the 3a appeared), which had the same woofer
as the AR-3. However, the tweeter and midrange were changed, as were the
crossover points, which were all lower than what the AR-3 had: 575 and 5000 Hz,
rather than 1000 and 7500 Hz. The later AR-2ax also got the AR-3a tweeter, plus
a new midrange driver that was different (much cheaper) from that of the AR-3 or
3a.

The AR-3a was designed mainly by a very competent man named Chuck McShane, under
Roy Allison's direction. Roy had joined AR in 1959, after Kloss left, and became
Villchur's plant manager. Prior to that he had been a contributing editor at
High Fidelity magazine, along with none other than Gordon Holt.

So, after the AR-3a we had the AR-2x and AR-2ax, plus the AR-4, AR-4x, AR-5,
AR-6, AR-7, and AR-LST (the latter being the only one of the group that was more
potent and more expensive than the 3a), each of which was designed under the
supervision of or else fully designed by Allison. Allison also was in charge of
getting the AR Amp, AR Tuner, and AR Receiver into production. Much of the work
on the latter was done by Robert Grodinsky.

By the time these later systems (including the electronics) started to show up,
Villchur had sold AR to Teledyne, and Roy became vice president, with Abe
Hoffman serving as president of the AR branch of the corporation. Under their
command company profits and sales doubled. However, the company was still losing
market share to outfits that were making cheaper speakers, and so a new man was
brought in by Teledyne to replace Hoffman.

A number of years later, after his contract ran out, Allison left the company
and those who were left behind produced the AR-8, AR-LST/2, AR-9, etc., none of
which Roy had anything to do with.

Allison had been doing research on speaker/room interactions, and after he left
AR his knowledge became the foundation for what eventually became Allison
Acoustics. His research was partially the a result of what had happened when
Consumer Reports gave the AR-3a a so-so review in the late 1960s, and partially
because he was aware that much was to be learned about mid-bass boundary
artifacts and the relationship between reverberant-field and direct-field sound
in home-listening rooms.


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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 20:16:10 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Jul  7 19:16:10 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
Message-ID: <200307072311.h67NB6V22449@hades.usol.com>

Bob, 	
	
I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not permit a
discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree and still not
short circuits.  	
	
In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should go to the
positive terminal on the speaker. 	
	
Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?	
	


----------
From: Robert    J. McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM

Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think about
that for a bit before flaming.
Bob McKee



> [Original Message]
> From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>
> I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put together.
> There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  That is
> factory, Duane.
> As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, the
> polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers are the
> same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are dealing with
> alternating current here, but they both need to putting the oooom in the
> oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later years,
when
> replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the grilles to
> re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and took a
> serious
> > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples, three
> down each
> > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill material, the
wood
> panel
> > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not state
that
> this
> > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> >
> > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with two
> speaker
> > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to their
> right,
> > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> >
> > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker cone,
what
> is it?
> > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> >
> > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with a
battery
> to be
> > sure.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Duane W8DBF
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 20:16:11 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Jul  7 19:16:11 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
Message-ID: <200307072311.h67NB4V22437@hades.usol.com>

There are at least two ways the grill material covering was held in place.
Another version used four long and narrow staples through the grill material,
through the wood and then blunted. The grill material was stapled down from the
back side with flat staples on the corners where the material was folded over. I
know of this being done on the AR-4xa.	
	
The other method is the one that I described earlier. 	
	

	 

----------
From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:49 PM

I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put together.
There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  That is
factory, Duane.
As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, the
polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers are the
same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are dealing with
alternating current here, but they both need to putting the oooom in the
oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later years, when
replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the grilles to
re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info


>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and took a
serious
> squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples, three
down each
> side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill material, the wood
panel
> behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not state that
this
> is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
>
> When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with two
speaker
> terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to their
right,
> the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
>
> Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker cone, what
is it?
> Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
>
> FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with a battery
to be
> sure.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane W8DBF


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 20:33:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Jul  7 19:33:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Attn. Rudy Rutenber
Message-ID: <200307072327.h67NRlV23690@hades.usol.com>

	
I do not normally post personal business on any list, and as a List Admin, I
discourage it. However, forgive me for violating my own rules this one time. Mr.
Rutenber does not seem to receive my e-mails sent direct or I am not receiving
his replies. Why I do not know. 	
	
Rudy, a second check was mailed to you on this date by first class mail. If you
have not received it by this Saturday, something is amuck with the mail. The
first check was cashed, according to my bank, but because it was a commercial
check, it had to be deposited. However, the signature on the reverse does not
appear to be yours. Hence, I have sent a second check to you at the address you
provided. Let me know when it arrives. Thank you.	
	
DBF	


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 20:42:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (AA6DX)
Date: Mon Jul  7 19:42:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
References: <200307072311.h67NB6V22449@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <017d01c344e0$a33ddf50$7662ce3f@desk>

Hello Duane.  No, it is AC.   Direct Current would do like your battery did,
causing the speaker diaphragm to move in ONE direction, which may make a
"pop", but not "audio".  It is very convenient for the audiophile to use the
markings as you have noted, and that is correct.  However, if you have a
stereo set up, just try this.  REVERSE the wires to both speakers.  You will
not hear a difference.   REVERSE only one.  Then, you will get the KARAOKE
effect, where parts of the song are "nulled", due to the out-of-phase
presentation of the sound waves. You will sometimes hear this on an FM
stereo broadcast, when the engineer mis-wired the hook ups to the board and
created this "null", which creates a funny sound, and if the input is
actually MONO, will drop the audio output quite low.
I am not trying to disagree with anybody, just sharing with this great
group.  I hope Robert McKee understands that!  After all, I hate to think
all my years of being in the stereo business, and then as a broadcast
engineer, do not go to waste!    Cheers .. hope all had a happy fourth of
july weekend, we did here, now ready for wife and I celebrating our number
forty three anniversary, on the tenth.   Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info


> Bob,
>
> I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not permit a
> discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree and
still not
> short circuits.
>
> In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should go to
the
> positive terminal on the speaker.
>
> Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: Robert    J. McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM
>
> Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
> from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think about
> that for a bit before flaming.
> Bob McKee
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> >
> > I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put together.
> > There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  That is
> > factory, Duane.
> > As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, the
> > polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers are the
> > same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are dealing with
> > alternating current here, but they both need to putting the oooom in the
> > oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later years,
> when
> > replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the grilles to
> > re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and took a
> > serious
> > > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples, three
> > down each
> > > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill material, the
> wood
> > panel
> > > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not state
> that
> > this
> > > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> > >
> > > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with two
> > speaker
> > > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to their
> > right,
> > > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> > >
> > > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker cone,
> what
> > is it?
> > > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> > >
> > > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with a
> battery
> > to be
> > > sure.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Duane W8DBF
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 21:20:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net)
Date: Mon Jul  7 20:20:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
Message-ID: <20030707.202115.-711695.2.manualman@juno.com>

Last time I looked, audio waves generally have the same number of
positive and negative peaks on either side of the zero base line. So, as
long as both speakers are wired in phase with the amplifier outputs, it
shouldn't make any difference. If it does, then your equipment may have
other serious problems. I also fail to see who's flaming who. Anybody got
any deals on #6 oxygen free speaker wire?
Pete

On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 17:04:59 -0400 "Robert    J. McKee"
<mckee137@mindspring.com> writes:
> Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
> from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think about
> that for a bit before flaming.
> Bob McKee
> 
> 
> 
> > [Original Message]
> > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> >
> > I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put 
> together.
> > There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  That 
> is
> > factory, Duane.
> > As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, 
> the
> > polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers 
> are the
> > same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are 
> dealing with
> > alternating current here, but they both need to putting the oooom 
> in the
> > oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later 
> years,
> when
> > replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the 
> grilles to
> > re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and 
> took a
> > serious
> > > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples, 
> three
> > down each
> > > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill 
> material, the
> wood
> > panel
> > > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not 
> state
> that
> > this
> > > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> > >
> > > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with 
> two
> > speaker
> > > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to 
> their
> > right,
> > > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> > >
> > > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker 
> cone,
> what
> > is it?
> > > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> > >
> > > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with 
> a
> battery
> > to be
> > > sure.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Duane W8DBF

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul  7 22:59:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Jul  7 21:59:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
Message-ID: <200307080153.h681riV02040@hades.usol.com>

Mark, 	
	
Interesting information, thank you.  	
	
I do recall some speakers in the late sixties or early seventies that actually
plugged into the walloutlet for power. A novel approach, but I do not recall
them catching on once the curios were satisfied. 			
	
You are quite correct Mark, only being out of phase makes a difference. I simply
prefer to play it on the safe side with my stereo equipment. 	
	
When I connected the AR-4 to the H.H. Scott LK-72B to test it, I tried
connecting the wires both ways. I could hear a difference one way and decided to
use that as the correct polarity. I have each positive wire in my systems marked
on both ends for ease of identification, by the way. It turned out when I did
take the grill cover off so I could feel the motion of the speaker cone, that I
had correctly identified the polarity. There is a discernable difference. 	
	
Are you suggesting there should be no difference if amp positive goes to speaker
negative and amp negative goes to speaker positive? If so, my ears say
otherwise. 	
	
I believe the sharing of information, even when the opinions are contradictory,
is healthy. It always helps to look at a situation from a different angle or
perspective. many times one sees something he/she never noticed before. 		
	
Thank you for your insights Mark. I never realized that the speaker output was
in AC current before. 	
	
DBF	

	
 


----------
From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM

Hello Duane.  No, it is AC.   Direct Current would do like your battery did,
causing the speaker diaphragm to move in ONE direction, which may make a
"pop", but not "audio".  It is very convenient for the audiophile to use the
markings as you have noted, and that is correct.  However, if you have a
stereo set up, just try this.  REVERSE the wires to both speakers.  You will
not hear a difference.   REVERSE only one.  Then, you will get the KARAOKE
effect, where parts of the song are "nulled", due to the out-of-phase
presentation of the sound waves. You will sometimes hear this on an FM
stereo broadcast, when the engineer mis-wired the hook ups to the board and
created this "null", which creates a funny sound, and if the input is
actually MONO, will drop the audio output quite low.
I am not trying to disagree with anybody, just sharing with this great
group.  I hope Robert McKee understands that!  After all, I hate to think
all my years of being in the stereo business, and then as a broadcast
engineer, do not go to waste!    Cheers .. hope all had a happy fourth of
july weekend, we did here, now ready for wife and I celebrating our number
forty three anniversary, on the tenth.   Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info


> Bob,
>
> I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not permit a
> discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree and
still not
> short circuits.
>
> In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should go to
the
> positive terminal on the speaker.
>
> Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: Robert    J. McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM
>
> Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
> from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think about
> that for a bit before flaming.
> Bob McKee
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> >
> > I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put together.
> > There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  That is
> > factory, Duane.
> > As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, the
> > polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers are the
> > same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are dealing with
> > alternating current here, but they both need to putting the oooom in the
> > oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later years,
> when
> > replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the grilles to
> > re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and took a
> > serious
> > > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples, three
> > down each
> > > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill material, the
> wood
> > panel
> > > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not state
> that
> > this
> > > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> > >
> > > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with two
> > speaker
> > > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to their
> > right,
> > > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> > >
> > > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker cone,
> what
> > is it?
> > > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> > >
> > > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with a
> battery
> > to be
> > > sure.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Duane W8DBF
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 02:56:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Rudy Rutenber)
Date: Tue Jul  8 01:56:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
References: <200307080153.h681riV02040@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <003401c34514$d6c87630$41c7fea9@rudy>

Well, I have to stick my 2-cents in here...

Regarding the polarity of the entire system.  When you hear a bass drum, it
is positive in that the wave produced at the time of recording, is forward
towards the microphone.  If all the polarity in the wiring is correct from
the mic to the final medium such as a CD, and, to your speakers, the speaker
will move outward and reproduce the bass drum as it was recorded.  In some
music, this is not important.  In music that has a solid beat or groove, it
will sound mushy if the polarity is reversed.  That's one good reason to use
the correct polarity for your speakers.  (that is, a positive voltage on the
positive terminal produces an outward motion of the cone)  I'm sure there
are many others as I am sure to learn here soon.
Rudy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info


> Mark,
>
> Interesting information, thank you.
>
> I do recall some speakers in the late sixties or early seventies that
actually
> plugged into the walloutlet for power. A novel approach, but I do not
recall
> them catching on once the curios were satisfied.
>
> You are quite correct Mark, only being out of phase makes a difference. I
simply
> prefer to play it on the safe side with my stereo equipment.
>
> When I connected the AR-4 to the H.H. Scott LK-72B to test it, I tried
> connecting the wires both ways. I could hear a difference one way and
decided to
> use that as the correct polarity. I have each positive wire in my systems
marked
> on both ends for ease of identification, by the way. It turned out when I
did
> take the grill cover off so I could feel the motion of the speaker cone,
that I
> had correctly identified the polarity. There is a discernable difference.
>
> Are you suggesting there should be no difference if amp positive goes to
speaker
> negative and amp negative goes to speaker positive? If so, my ears say
> otherwise.
>
> I believe the sharing of information, even when the opinions are
contradictory,
> is healthy. It always helps to look at a situation from a different angle
or
> perspective. many times one sees something he/she never noticed before.
>
> Thank you for your insights Mark. I never realized that the speaker output
was
> in AC current before.
>
> DBF
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM
>
> Hello Duane.  No, it is AC.   Direct Current would do like your battery
did,
> causing the speaker diaphragm to move in ONE direction, which may make a
> "pop", but not "audio".  It is very convenient for the audiophile to use
the
> markings as you have noted, and that is correct.  However, if you have a
> stereo set up, just try this.  REVERSE the wires to both speakers.  You
will
> not hear a difference.   REVERSE only one.  Then, you will get the KARAOKE
> effect, where parts of the song are "nulled", due to the out-of-phase
> presentation of the sound waves. You will sometimes hear this on an FM
> stereo broadcast, when the engineer mis-wired the hook ups to the board
and
> created this "null", which creates a funny sound, and if the input is
> actually MONO, will drop the audio output quite low.
> I am not trying to disagree with anybody, just sharing with this great
> group.  I hope Robert McKee understands that!  After all, I hate to think
> all my years of being in the stereo business, and then as a broadcast
> engineer, do not go to waste!    Cheers .. hope all had a happy fourth of
> july weekend, we did here, now ready for wife and I celebrating our number
> forty three anniversary, on the tenth.   Mark
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not permit a
> > discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree and
> still not
> > short circuits.
> >
> > In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should go to
> the
> > positive terminal on the speaker.
> >
> > Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > From: Robert    J. McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
> > To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM
> >
> > Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
> > from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think about
> > that for a bit before flaming.
> > Bob McKee
> >
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > > Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > >
> > > I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put
together.
> > > There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  That is
> > > factory, Duane.
> > > As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, the
> > > polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers are
the
> > > same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are dealing
with
> > > alternating current here, but they both need to putting the oooom in
the
> > > oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later
years,
> > when
> > > replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the grilles
to
> > > re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> > > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and took
a
> > > serious
> > > > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples,
three
> > > down each
> > > > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill material,
the
> > wood
> > > panel
> > > > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not
state
> > that
> > > this
> > > > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> > > >
> > > > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with two
> > > speaker
> > > > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to
their
> > > right,
> > > > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> > > >
> > > > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker cone,
> > what
> > > is it?
> > > > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> > > >
> > > > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with a
> > battery
> > > to be
> > > > sure.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > Duane W8DBF
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 03:29:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert    J. McKee)
Date: Tue Jul  8 02:29:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re:
Message-ID: <410-220037286284970@mindspring.com>

Thank YOU for understanding, Rudy.  With very high quality
equipment and speakers (speakers most important) there will
be an audible difference.  Air, which the speakers move, is a
compressible medium.  Rarification is limited to atmospheric
pressure and compression is theoretically unlimited.
You will notice that on both high-priced and high-quality
preamps and amplifiers (cost and quality are not tied together)
will have in their specifications that they are either inverting
or non-inverting.  In setting up a quality system this information
can be valuable and time-saving.


> [Original Message]
> From: Rudy Rutenber <wa6pew@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Date: 7/8/03 1:56:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>
> Well, I have to stick my 2-cents in here...
>
> Regarding the polarity of the entire system.  When you hear a bass drum,
it
> is positive in that the wave produced at the time of recording, is forward
> towards the microphone.  If all the polarity in the wiring is correct from
> the mic to the final medium such as a CD, and, to your speakers, the
speaker
> will move outward and reproduce the bass drum as it was recorded.  In some
> music, this is not important.  In music that has a solid beat or groove,
it
> will sound mushy if the polarity is reversed.  That's one good reason to
use
> the correct polarity for your speakers.  (that is, a positive voltage on
the
> positive terminal produces an outward motion of the cone)  I'm sure there
> are many others as I am sure to learn here soon.
> Rudy
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 6:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>
>
> > Mark,
> >
> > Interesting information, thank you.
> >
> > I do recall some speakers in the late sixties or early seventies that
> actually
> > plugged into the walloutlet for power. A novel approach, but I do not
> recall
> > them catching on once the curios were satisfied.
> >
> > You are quite correct Mark, only being out of phase makes a difference.
I
> simply
> > prefer to play it on the safe side with my stereo equipment.
> >
> > When I connected the AR-4 to the H.H. Scott LK-72B to test it, I tried
> > connecting the wires both ways. I could hear a difference one way and
> decided to
> > use that as the correct polarity. I have each positive wire in my
systems
> marked
> > on both ends for ease of identification, by the way. It turned out when
I
> did
> > take the grill cover off so I could feel the motion of the speaker cone,
> that I
> > had correctly identified the polarity. There is a discernable
difference.
> >
> > Are you suggesting there should be no difference if amp positive goes to
> speaker
> > negative and amp negative goes to speaker positive? If so, my ears say
> > otherwise.
> >
> > I believe the sharing of information, even when the opinions are
> contradictory,
> > is healthy. It always helps to look at a situation from a different
angle
> or
> > perspective. many times one sees something he/she never noticed before.
> >
> > Thank you for your insights Mark. I never realized that the speaker
output
> was
> > in AC current before.
> >
> > DBF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM
> >
> > Hello Duane.  No, it is AC.   Direct Current would do like your battery
> did,
> > causing the speaker diaphragm to move in ONE direction, which may make a
> > "pop", but not "audio".  It is very convenient for the audiophile to use
> the
> > markings as you have noted, and that is correct.  However, if you have a
> > stereo set up, just try this.  REVERSE the wires to both speakers.  You
> will
> > not hear a difference.   REVERSE only one.  Then, you will get the
KARAOKE
> > effect, where parts of the song are "nulled", due to the out-of-phase
> > presentation of the sound waves. You will sometimes hear this on an FM
> > stereo broadcast, when the engineer mis-wired the hook ups to the board
> and
> > created this "null", which creates a funny sound, and if the input is
> > actually MONO, will drop the audio output quite low.
> > I am not trying to disagree with anybody, just sharing with this great
> > group.  I hope Robert McKee understands that!  After all, I hate to
think
> > all my years of being in the stereo business, and then as a broadcast
> > engineer, do not go to waste!    Cheers .. hope all had a happy fourth
of
> > july weekend, we did here, now ready for wife and I celebrating our
number
> > forty three anniversary, on the tenth.   Mark
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> >
> >
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > > I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not permit
a
> > > discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree and
> > still not
> > > short circuits.
> > >
> > > In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should go
to
> > the
> > > positive terminal on the speaker.
> > >
> > > Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Robert    J. McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
> > > To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> > > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > > Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM
> > >
> > > Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
> > > from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think about
> > > that for a bit before flaming.
> > > Bob McKee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > > > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > > > Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > > >
> > > > I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put
> together.
> > > > There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  That
is
> > > > factory, Duane.
> > > > As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, the
> > > > polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers are
> the
> > > > same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are dealing
> with
> > > > alternating current here, but they both need to putting the oooom in
> the
> > > > oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later
> years,
> > > when
> > > > replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the grilles
> to
> > > > re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > > > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> > > > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and
took
> a
> > > > serious
> > > > > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples,
> three
> > > > down each
> > > > > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill material,
> the
> > > wood
> > > > panel
> > > > > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not
> state
> > > that
> > > > this
> > > > > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> > > > >
> > > > > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with
two
> > > > speaker
> > > > > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to
> their
> > > > right,
> > > > > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> > > > >
> > > > > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker
cone,
> > > what
> > > > is it?
> > > > > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> > > > >
> > > > > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with a
> > > battery
> > > > to be
> > > > > sure.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Duane W8DBF
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 04:08:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net)
Date: Tue Jul  8 03:08:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
Message-ID: <20030708.030946.-423315.1.manualman@juno.com>

Duane:
The speakers that required AC power were sometimes called "Electrostatic
Speakers". The power was required for electrostatic tweeter elements to
"faithfully reproduce the high frequencies with crystal clear clarity".
The quote is from the an ad in the Lafayette Radio 1973 catalog. It was a
poor seller for the time we had them in the catalog. Customers also kept
returning them as defective because they kept forgetting to throw the
ON/OFF switch to ON. Besides the AC cord being plugged into the wall
outlet, you still had to connect the two speaker terminals to the
amplifier.

My Dynaco amplifier speaker connections have no plus or minus on the
terminals. Terminals are labeled Common, 4, 8, and 16. Is 4, 8, or 16
plus; is Common plus; or is it vice versa? The answer is, as I said
several days ago and as Mark also states, it doesn't make any difference
as long as the connected configuration for each channel is the same.
There is no plus or minus. These are audio frequencies we are dealing
with and are sinusoidal (alternating)  in nature. There is no polarity
involved, only phase. If you perceive to hear a difference with only one
speaker connected and then reversing the leads, your brain is just
playing tricks with you. Picture one symmetrical sine wave feeding a
woofer. The wave rises in a positive direction, woofer goes from rest to
push out; wave drops back to zero, woofer returns to rest; wave rises in
the negative direction, woofer pulls in; wave drops back to zero, woofer
comes to rest. If you turn the leads around, the woofer will do the same
thing except push out and pull in are reversed. The important thing to
remember is that all the speakers connected to your amplifier be
connected so that they are in phase with each other.

Pete

On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:53:21 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
<dfischer@usol.com> writes:
> Mark,         
>         
> Interesting information, thank you.          
>         
> I do recall some speakers in the late sixties or early seventies 
> that actually
> plugged into the walloutlet for power. A novel approach, but I do 
> not recall
> them catching on once the curios were satisfied. 
>                         
>         
> You are quite correct Mark, only being out of phase makes a 
> difference. I simply
> prefer to play it on the safe side with my stereo equipment. 
>         
>         
> When I connected the AR-4 to the H.H. Scott LK-72B to test it, I 
> tried
> connecting the wires both ways. I could hear a difference one way 
> and decided to
> use that as the correct polarity. I have each positive wire in my 
> systems marked
> on both ends for ease of identification, by the way. It turned out 
> when I did
> take the grill cover off so I could feel the motion of the speaker 
> cone, that I
> had correctly identified the polarity. There is a discernable 
> difference.         
>         
> Are you suggesting there should be no difference if amp positive 
> goes to speaker
> negative and amp negative goes to speaker positive? If so, my ears 
> say
> otherwise.         
>         
> I believe the sharing of information, even when the opinions are 
> contradictory,
> is healthy. It always helps to look at a situation from a different 
> angle or
> perspective. many times one sees something he/she never noticed 
> before.                 
>         
> Thank you for your insights Mark. I never realized that the speaker 
> output was
> in AC current before.         
>         
> DBF        
> 
>         
>  
> 
> 
> ----------
> From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM
> 
> Hello Duane.  No, it is AC.   Direct Current would do like your 
> battery did,
> causing the speaker diaphragm to move in ONE direction, which may 
> make a
> "pop", but not "audio".  It is very convenient for the audiophile to 
> use the
> markings as you have noted, and that is correct.  However, if you 
> have a
> stereo set up, just try this.  REVERSE the wires to both speakers.  
> You will
> not hear a difference.   REVERSE only one.  Then, you will get the 
> KARAOKE
> effect, where parts of the song are "nulled", due to the 
> out-of-phase
> presentation of the sound waves. You will sometimes hear this on an 
> FM
> stereo broadcast, when the engineer mis-wired the hook ups to the 
> board and
> created this "null", which creates a funny sound, and if the input 
> is
> actually MONO, will drop the audio output quite low.
> I am not trying to disagree with anybody, just sharing with this 
> great
> group.  I hope Robert McKee understands that!  After all, I hate to 
> think
> all my years of being in the stereo business, and then as a 
> broadcast
> engineer, do not go to waste!    Cheers .. hope all had a happy 
> fourth of
> july weekend, we did here, now ready for wife and I celebrating our 
> number
> forty three anniversary, on the tenth.   Mark
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> 
> 
> > Bob,
> >
> > I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not 
> permit a
> > discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree 
> and
> still not
> > short circuits.
> >
> > In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should 
> go to
> the
> > positive terminal on the speaker.
> >
> > Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > From: Robert    J. McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
> > To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM
> >
> > Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
> > from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think 
> about
> > that for a bit before flaming.
> > Bob McKee
> >
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > > Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > >
> > > I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put 
> together.
> > > There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  
> That is
> > > factory, Duane.
> > > As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, 
> the
> > > polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers 
> are the
> > > same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are 
> dealing with
> > > alternating current here, but they both need to putting the 
> oooom in the
> > > oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later 
> years,
> > when
> > > replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the 
> grilles to
> > > re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> > > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood 
> and took a
> > > serious
> > > > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six 
> staples, three
> > > down each
> > > > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill 
> material, the
> > wood
> > > panel
> > > > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can 
> not state
> > that
> > > this
> > > > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> > > >
> > > > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, 
> with two
> > > speaker
> > > > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just 
> to their
> > > right,
> > > > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> > > >
> > > > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker 
> cone,
> > what
> > > is it?
> > > > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> > > >
> > > > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today 
> with a
> > battery
> > > to be
> > > > sure.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > Duane W8DBF

________________________________________________________________
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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 04:19:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Terry Maton)
Date: Tue Jul  8 03:19:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
In-Reply-To: <003401c34514$d6c87630$41c7fea9@rudy>
References: <200307080153.h681riV02040@hades.usol.com> <003401c34514$d6c87630$41c7fea9@rudy>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200307080813.AA13380078@knightair.org>

Gentlemen

Some musical waveforms can be asymmetric, even though they are a.c.  This 
link gives examples, I am sure there are more:
http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/asymmetry/asym.html

I have heard a test CD that repeats a section of music in both polarities 
and, yes, it makes an audible difference.  One sounds more 'right', 
that's about the best way I can describe it.

The interesting part is when you try and make a judgement about a multi-
tracked recording where some parts are polarity correct and some are 
inverted.  (However, with my 'cloth ears' this has never been a big 
issue..!)

Cheers

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Rudy Rutenber" <wa6pew@sbcglobal.net>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:50:29 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info

> Well, I have to stick my 2-cents in here...
> 
> Regarding the polarity of the entire system.  When you hear a bass
> drum, it is positive in that the wave produced at the time of
> recording, is forward towards the microphone.  If all the polarity in
> the wiring is correct from the mic to the final medium such as a CD,
> and, to your speakers, the speaker will move outward and reproduce the
> bass drum as it was recorded.  In some music, this is not important.
> In music that has a solid beat or groove, it will sound mushy if the
> polarity is reversed.  That's one good reason to use the correct
> polarity for your speakers.  (that is, a positive voltage on the
> positive terminal produces an outward motion of the cone)  I'm sure
> there are many others as I am sure to learn here soon.
> Rudy


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 04:55:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Tue Jul  8 03:55:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
References: <200307080153.h681riV02040@hades.usol.com> <003401c34514$d6c87630$41c7fea9@rudy> <WorldClient-F200307080813.AA13380078@knightair.org>
Message-ID: <3F0A77BB.6070502@csnsys.com>

There is a  lot of hoopla here. Sure the waveforms are not 
symmetric. SO WHAT. move the mic 2 ft and they will have a 
completely different waveform. (think of all those Fourier 
frequencies changing phase differently (2 ft is a diffeerent phase 
shift at every frequency) and then adding back together.

Or if you don't like that, then consider a very short impulse like 
a single drum hit. This has a wave shape that will propagate and 
wander around the room until it hits your ear. I think it may make 
a difference if it is a positive pressure or a negative pressure. 
One makes your head squish and the other makes it explode.

If you get a  audio wave that is anywhere near 14 PSI peak (the 
negative pressure is anywhere near 0 psi), you are within about 
100 ft of a small atomic explosion and the direction of the event 
is not going to matter among the other effects. But there is an 
interesting effect of music changing with altitude (sounds 
different in Denver) and air density (weather).

WBob

Terry Maton wrote:
> Gentlemen
> 
> Some musical waveforms can be asymmetric, even though they are a.c.  This 
> link gives examples, I am sure there are more:
> http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/asymmetry/asym.html
> 
> I have heard a test CD that repeats a section of music in both polarities 
> and, yes, it makes an audible difference.  One sounds more 'right', 
> that's about the best way I can describe it.
> 
> The interesting part is when you try and make a judgement about a multi-
> tracked recording where some parts are polarity correct and some are 
> inverted.  (However, with my 'cloth ears' this has never been a big 
> issue..!)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Terry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Rudy Rutenber" <wa6pew@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:50:29 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> 
> 
>>Well, I have to stick my 2-cents in here...
>>
>>Regarding the polarity of the entire system.  When you hear a bass
>>drum, it is positive in that the wave produced at the time of
>>recording, is forward towards the microphone.  If all the polarity in
>>the wiring is correct from the mic to the final medium such as a CD,
>>and, to your speakers, the speaker will move outward and reproduce the
>>bass drum as it was recorded.  In some music, this is not important.
>>In music that has a solid beat or groove, it will sound mushy if the
>>polarity is reversed.  That's one good reason to use the correct
>>polarity for your speakers.  (that is, a positive voltage on the
>>positive terminal produces an outward motion of the cone)  I'm sure
>>there are many others as I am sure to learn here soon.
>>Rudy
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> 
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 10:01:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Jul  8 09:01:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re:
Message-ID: <200307081255.h68CtfV12390@hades.usol.com>

Robert, 	
	
I heard the difference, as previously mentioned. I have a keen ear for audio and
knew which was the correct polarity almost immediately.	
	
Admittedly I am far more particular than most listeners and hear subtle things
they never hear. It is a case of learning to listen, as opposed to simply
hearing better. Our brains filter out much because we do not wish to hear it.	
	
The difference is distinct enough, that I am confident if I recorded it live,
anyone with normal hearing could discern one being different than the other.
Part of it is in the sharpness of the bass response, one way has a muffled
quality to it. The other is in the overall quality of the entire audio range.
Some sounds in the background come to the foreground when polarity is correct.	
	
DBF 	
 

----------
From: Robert    J. McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re:
Date: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 2:28 AM

Thank YOU for understanding, Rudy.  With very high quality
equipment and speakers (speakers most important) there will
be an audible difference.  Air, which the speakers move, is a
compressible medium.  Rarification is limited to atmospheric
pressure and compression is theoretically unlimited.
You will notice that on both high-priced and high-quality
preamps and amplifiers (cost and quality are not tied together)
will have in their specifications that they are either inverting
or non-inverting.  In setting up a quality system this information
can be valuable and time-saving.


> [Original Message]
> From: Rudy Rutenber <wa6pew@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Date: 7/8/03 1:56:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>
> Well, I have to stick my 2-cents in here...
>
> Regarding the polarity of the entire system.  When you hear a bass drum,
it
> is positive in that the wave produced at the time of recording, is forward
> towards the microphone.  If all the polarity in the wiring is correct from
> the mic to the final medium such as a CD, and, to your speakers, the
speaker
> will move outward and reproduce the bass drum as it was recorded.  In some
> music, this is not important.  In music that has a solid beat or groove,
it
> will sound mushy if the polarity is reversed.  That's one good reason to
use
> the correct polarity for your speakers.  (that is, a positive voltage on
the
> positive terminal produces an outward motion of the cone)  I'm sure there
> are many others as I am sure to learn here soon.
> Rudy
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 6:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>
>
> > Mark,
> >
> > Interesting information, thank you.
> >
> > I do recall some speakers in the late sixties or early seventies that
> actually
> > plugged into the walloutlet for power. A novel approach, but I do not
> recall
> > them catching on once the curios were satisfied.
> >
> > You are quite correct Mark, only being out of phase makes a difference.
I
> simply
> > prefer to play it on the safe side with my stereo equipment.
> >
> > When I connected the AR-4 to the H.H. Scott LK-72B to test it, I tried
> > connecting the wires both ways. I could hear a difference one way and
> decided to
> > use that as the correct polarity. I have each positive wire in my
systems
> marked
> > on both ends for ease of identification, by the way. It turned out when
I
> did
> > take the grill cover off so I could feel the motion of the speaker cone,
> that I
> > had correctly identified the polarity. There is a discernable
difference.
> >
> > Are you suggesting there should be no difference if amp positive goes to
> speaker
> > negative and amp negative goes to speaker positive? If so, my ears say
> > otherwise.
> >
> > I believe the sharing of information, even when the opinions are
> contradictory,
> > is healthy. It always helps to look at a situation from a different
angle
> or
> > perspective. many times one sees something he/she never noticed before.
> >
> > Thank you for your insights Mark. I never realized that the speaker
output
> was
> > in AC current before.
> >
> > DBF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM
> >
> > Hello Duane.  No, it is AC.   Direct Current would do like your battery
> did,
> > causing the speaker diaphragm to move in ONE direction, which may make a
> > "pop", but not "audio".  It is very convenient for the audiophile to use
> the
> > markings as you have noted, and that is correct.  However, if you have a
> > stereo set up, just try this.  REVERSE the wires to both speakers.  You
> will
> > not hear a difference.   REVERSE only one.  Then, you will get the
KARAOKE
> > effect, where parts of the song are "nulled", due to the out-of-phase
> > presentation of the sound waves. You will sometimes hear this on an FM
> > stereo broadcast, when the engineer mis-wired the hook ups to the board
> and
> > created this "null", which creates a funny sound, and if the input is
> > actually MONO, will drop the audio output quite low.
> > I am not trying to disagree with anybody, just sharing with this great
> > group.  I hope Robert McKee understands that!  After all, I hate to
think
> > all my years of being in the stereo business, and then as a broadcast
> > engineer, do not go to waste!    Cheers .. hope all had a happy fourth
of
> > july weekend, we did here, now ready for wife and I celebrating our
number
> > forty three anniversary, on the tenth.   Mark
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> >
> >
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > > I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not permit
a
> > > discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree and
> > still not
> > > short circuits.
> > >
> > > In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should go
to
> > the
> > > positive terminal on the speaker.
> > >
> > > Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Robert    J. McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
> > > To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> > > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > > Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM
> > >
> > > Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
> > > from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think about
> > > that for a bit before flaming.
> > > Bob McKee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > > > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > > > Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > > >
> > > > I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put
> together.
> > > > There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.  That
is
> > > > factory, Duane.
> > > > As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know, the
> > > > polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers are
> the
> > > > same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are dealing
> with
> > > > alternating current here, but they both need to putting the oooom in
> the
> > > > oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later
> years,
> > > when
> > > > replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the grilles
> to
> > > > re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > > > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> > > > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood and
took
> a
> > > > serious
> > > > > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six staples,
> three
> > > > down each
> > > > > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill material,
> the
> > > wood
> > > > panel
> > > > > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can not
> state
> > > that
> > > > this
> > > > > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> > > > >
> > > > > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back, with
two
> > > > speaker
> > > > > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just to
> their
> > > > right,
> > > > > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> > > > >
> > > > > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker
cone,
> > > what
> > > > is it?
> > > > > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> > > > >
> > > > > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today with a
> > > battery
> > > > to be
> > > > > sure.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Duane W8DBF
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 11:33:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (AA6DX)
Date: Tue Jul  8 10:33:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
References: <200307080153.h681riV02040@hades.usol.com> <003401c34514$d6c87630$41c7fea9@rudy> <WorldClient-F200307080813.AA13380078@knightair.org>
Message-ID: <043001c3455d$297d52e0$7662ce3f@desk>

Well, Rudy's example sure makes sense to me.  I have always set up stereo
systems the "correct" way, but do know if you hook one speaker out of phase
with the other you certainly lose a lot of information.  The last years, I
have been working with computer and communication speakers, and there are
not a lot of bass drums in the sounds!  Hah.    And, too many years in a
stereo sound room have pretty much wiped out my high-end reception!
Duane, the speakers that plugged in the wall, would those be the
electrostatic speakers you are talking about?  My stores were dealers for
ESS, which was first known for their electrostats. As a matter of fact, I
believe ESS originally stood for Electrostatic Sound Systems.   They were
nice huge speakers, highly ineffecient and not for the rocker, in my opine.
ESS later became famous for the Heil tweeter system incorporated into their
bookshelf and floor standing speakers.  I had 2 sets of those in my home.
Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Maton" <terry_maton@knightair.org>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info


> Gentlemen
>
> Some musical waveforms can be asymmetric, even though they are a.c.  This
> link gives examples, I am sure there are more:
> http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/asymmetry/asym.html
>
> I have heard a test CD that repeats a section of music in both polarities
> and, yes, it makes an audible difference.  One sounds more 'right',
> that's about the best way I can describe it.
>
> The interesting part is when you try and make a judgement about a multi-
> tracked recording where some parts are polarity correct and some are
> inverted.  (However, with my 'cloth ears' this has never been a big
> issue..!)
>
> Cheers
>
> Terry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Rudy Rutenber" <wa6pew@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:50:29 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>
> > Well, I have to stick my 2-cents in here...
> >
> > Regarding the polarity of the entire system.  When you hear a bass
> > drum, it is positive in that the wave produced at the time of
> > recording, is forward towards the microphone.  If all the polarity in
> > the wiring is correct from the mic to the final medium such as a CD,
> > and, to your speakers, the speaker will move outward and reproduce the
> > bass drum as it was recorded.  In some music, this is not important.
> > In music that has a solid beat or groove, it will sound mushy if the
> > polarity is reversed.  That's one good reason to use the correct
> > polarity for your speakers.  (that is, a positive voltage on the
> > positive terminal produces an outward motion of the cone)  I'm sure
> > there are many others as I am sure to learn here soon.
> > Rudy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 11:46:02 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (AA6DX)
Date: Tue Jul  8 10:46:02 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Speaker polarity
Message-ID: <045c01c3455f$0464a420$7662ce3f@desk>

While pondering the issue a wee bit more, I came up with this URL that =
really answers a couple questions as to speaker polarity and phasing.  =
If interested, have a peek!
Mark
http://www.kellerstudio.de/repairfaq/sam/audiofaq.htm#audlsphs

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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 12:20:08 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Rick Larson)
Date: Tue Jul  8 11:20:08 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] speaker phase (was Re: Update On AR-4 Info)
In-Reply-To: <043001c3455d$297d52e0$7662ce3f@desk>
References: <200307080153.h681riV02040@hades.usol.com> <003401c34514$d6c87630$41c7fea9@rudy> <WorldClient-F200307080813.AA13380078@knightair.org> <043001c3455d$297d52e0$7662ce3f@desk>
Message-ID: <20030708151429.GE356@adc.com>

AA6DX wrote:
> Well, Rudy's example sure makes sense to me.  I have always set up stereo
> systems the "correct" way, but do know if you hook one speaker out of phase
> with the other you certainly lose a lot of information.  The last years, I

[snip]

I was planning to stay out of this but when I set up speakers,
I hook up the speakers as I think they should be.  Then I place
both speakers about six inches apart facing each other.  If I hear
good sound, they are in phase, if not, they are out of phase.  Out of
phase speakers will cancel out the sound from one speaker to the other.

Once I verify the speakers are in phase, I work on speaker placement
within the room.  SOP.
 
rick

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 20:07:06 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Rudy Rutenber)
Date: Tue Jul  8 19:07:06 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
References: <20030708.030946.-423315.1.manualman@juno.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c345a4$f00e7be0$41c7fea9@rudy>

In regard to audio polarity; it is most likely more evident in the low
frequencies if the polarity of the speakers are reversed. (not out-of-phase)
If you have any questions about the necessity of correct polarity of the
entire system, go to www.jblpro.com or www.mccauley.com and read the
engineering facts. Lastly, if the entire audio industry is wrong about
polarity of speakers, I would be very surprised to say the least.
Rudy


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <manualman@juno.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info


> Duane:
> The speakers that required AC power were sometimes called "Electrostatic
> Speakers". The power was required for electrostatic tweeter elements to
> "faithfully reproduce the high frequencies with crystal clear clarity".
> The quote is from the an ad in the Lafayette Radio 1973 catalog. It was a
> poor seller for the time we had them in the catalog. Customers also kept
> returning them as defective because they kept forgetting to throw the
> ON/OFF switch to ON. Besides the AC cord being plugged into the wall
> outlet, you still had to connect the two speaker terminals to the
> amplifier.
>
> My Dynaco amplifier speaker connections have no plus or minus on the
> terminals. Terminals are labeled Common, 4, 8, and 16. Is 4, 8, or 16
> plus; is Common plus; or is it vice versa? The answer is, as I said
> several days ago and as Mark also states, it doesn't make any difference
> as long as the connected configuration for each channel is the same.
> There is no plus or minus. These are audio frequencies we are dealing
> with and are sinusoidal (alternating)  in nature. There is no polarity
> involved, only phase. If you perceive to hear a difference with only one
> speaker connected and then reversing the leads, your brain is just
> playing tricks with you. Picture one symmetrical sine wave feeding a
> woofer. The wave rises in a positive direction, woofer goes from rest to
> push out; wave drops back to zero, woofer returns to rest; wave rises in
> the negative direction, woofer pulls in; wave drops back to zero, woofer
> comes to rest. If you turn the leads around, the woofer will do the same
> thing except push out and pull in are reversed. The important thing to
> remember is that all the speakers connected to your amplifier be
> connected so that they are in phase with each other.
>
> Pete
>
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:53:21 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
> <dfischer@usol.com> writes:
> > Mark,
> >
> > Interesting information, thank you.
> >
> > I do recall some speakers in the late sixties or early seventies
> > that actually
> > plugged into the walloutlet for power. A novel approach, but I do
> > not recall
> > them catching on once the curios were satisfied.
> >
> >
> > You are quite correct Mark, only being out of phase makes a
> > difference. I simply
> > prefer to play it on the safe side with my stereo equipment.
> >
> >
> > When I connected the AR-4 to the H.H. Scott LK-72B to test it, I
> > tried
> > connecting the wires both ways. I could hear a difference one way
> > and decided to
> > use that as the correct polarity. I have each positive wire in my
> > systems marked
> > on both ends for ease of identification, by the way. It turned out
> > when I did
> > take the grill cover off so I could feel the motion of the speaker
> > cone, that I
> > had correctly identified the polarity. There is a discernable
> > difference.
> >
> > Are you suggesting there should be no difference if amp positive
> > goes to speaker
> > negative and amp negative goes to speaker positive? If so, my ears
> > say
> > otherwise.
> >
> > I believe the sharing of information, even when the opinions are
> > contradictory,
> > is healthy. It always helps to look at a situation from a different
> > angle or
> > perspective. many times one sees something he/she never noticed
> > before.
> >
> > Thank you for your insights Mark. I never realized that the speaker
> > output was
> > in AC current before.
> >
> > DBF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM
> >
> > Hello Duane.  No, it is AC.   Direct Current would do like your
> > battery did,
> > causing the speaker diaphragm to move in ONE direction, which may
> > make a
> > "pop", but not "audio".  It is very convenient for the audiophile to
> > use the
> > markings as you have noted, and that is correct.  However, if you
> > have a
> > stereo set up, just try this.  REVERSE the wires to both speakers.
> > You will
> > not hear a difference.   REVERSE only one.  Then, you will get the
> > KARAOKE
> > effect, where parts of the song are "nulled", due to the
> > out-of-phase
> > presentation of the sound waves. You will sometimes hear this on an
> > FM
> > stereo broadcast, when the engineer mis-wired the hook ups to the
> > board and
> > created this "null", which creates a funny sound, and if the input
> > is
> > actually MONO, will drop the audio output quite low.
> > I am not trying to disagree with anybody, just sharing with this
> > great
> > group.  I hope Robert McKee understands that!  After all, I hate to
> > think
> > all my years of being in the stereo business, and then as a
> > broadcast
> > engineer, do not go to waste!    Cheers .. hope all had a happy
> > fourth of
> > july weekend, we did here, now ready for wife and I celebrating our
> > number
> > forty three anniversary, on the tenth.   Mark
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> >
> >
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > > I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not
> > permit a
> > > discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree
> > and
> > still not
> > > short circuits.
> > >
> > > In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should
> > go to
> > the
> > > positive terminal on the speaker.
> > >
> > > Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Robert    J. McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
> > > To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> > > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > > Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM
> > >
> > > Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
> > > from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think
> > about
> > > that for a bit before flaming.
> > > Bob McKee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
> > > > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > > > Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > > >
> > > > I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put
> > together.
> > > > There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.
> > That is
> > > > factory, Duane.
> > > > As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know,
> > the
> > > > polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers
> > are the
> > > > same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are
> > dealing with
> > > > alternating current here, but they both need to putting the
> > oooom in the
> > > > oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later
> > years,
> > > when
> > > > replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the
> > grilles to
> > > > re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > > > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
> > > > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood
> > and took a
> > > > serious
> > > > > squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six
> > staples, three
> > > > down each
> > > > > side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill
> > material, the
> > > wood
> > > > panel
> > > > > behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can
> > not state
> > > that
> > > > this
> > > > > is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
> > > > >
> > > > > When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back,
> > with two
> > > > speaker
> > > > > terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just
> > to their
> > > > right,
> > > > > the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
> > > > >
> > > > > Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker
> > cone,
> > > what
> > > > is it?
> > > > > Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
> > > > >
> > > > > FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today
> > with a
> > > battery
> > > > to be
> > > > > sure.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Duane W8DBF
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 20:12:08 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Tue Jul  8 19:12:08 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
References: <20030708.030946.-423315.1.manualman@juno.com> <003c01c345a4$f00e7be0$41c7fea9@rudy>
Message-ID: <3F0B4F09.5030309@csnsys.com>

It's been wrong about a lot of things....Nothing new..

WBob

Rudy Rutenber wrote:
> In regard to audio polarity; it is most likely more evident in the low
> frequencies if the polarity of the speakers are reversed. (not out-of-phase)
> If you have any questions about the necessity of correct polarity of the
> entire system, go to www.jblpro.com or www.mccauley.com and read the
> engineering facts. Lastly, if the entire audio industry is wrong about
> polarity of speakers, I would be very surprised to say the least.
> Rudy
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <manualman@juno.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
> 
> 
> 
>>Duane:
>>The speakers that required AC power were sometimes called "Electrostatic
>>Speakers". The power was required for electrostatic tweeter elements to
>>"faithfully reproduce the high frequencies with crystal clear clarity".
>>The quote is from the an ad in the Lafayette Radio 1973 catalog. It was a
>>poor seller for the time we had them in the catalog. Customers also kept
>>returning them as defective because they kept forgetting to throw the
>>ON/OFF switch to ON. Besides the AC cord being plugged into the wall
>>outlet, you still had to connect the two speaker terminals to the
>>amplifier.
>>
>>My Dynaco amplifier speaker connections have no plus or minus on the
>>terminals. Terminals are labeled Common, 4, 8, and 16. Is 4, 8, or 16
>>plus; is Common plus; or is it vice versa? The answer is, as I said
>>several days ago and as Mark also states, it doesn't make any difference
>>as long as the connected configuration for each channel is the same.
>>There is no plus or minus. These are audio frequencies we are dealing
>>with and are sinusoidal (alternating)  in nature. There is no polarity
>>involved, only phase. If you perceive to hear a difference with only one
>>speaker connected and then reversing the leads, your brain is just
>>playing tricks with you. Picture one symmetrical sine wave feeding a
>>woofer. The wave rises in a positive direction, woofer goes from rest to
>>push out; wave drops back to zero, woofer returns to rest; wave rises in
>>the negative direction, woofer pulls in; wave drops back to zero, woofer
>>comes to rest. If you turn the leads around, the woofer will do the same
>>thing except push out and pull in are reversed. The important thing to
>>remember is that all the speakers connected to your amplifier be
>>connected so that they are in phase with each other.
>>
>>Pete
>>
>>On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:53:21 -0400 "Duane Fischer, W8DBF"
>><dfischer@usol.com> writes:
>>
>>>Mark,
>>>
>>>Interesting information, thank you.
>>>
>>>I do recall some speakers in the late sixties or early seventies
>>>that actually
>>>plugged into the walloutlet for power. A novel approach, but I do
>>>not recall
>>>them catching on once the curios were satisfied.
>>>
>>>
>>>You are quite correct Mark, only being out of phase makes a
>>>difference. I simply
>>>prefer to play it on the safe side with my stereo equipment.
>>>
>>>
>>>When I connected the AR-4 to the H.H. Scott LK-72B to test it, I
>>>tried
>>>connecting the wires both ways. I could hear a difference one way
>>>and decided to
>>>use that as the correct polarity. I have each positive wire in my
>>>systems marked
>>>on both ends for ease of identification, by the way. It turned out
>>>when I did
>>>take the grill cover off so I could feel the motion of the speaker
>>>cone, that I
>>>had correctly identified the polarity. There is a discernable
>>>difference.
>>>
>>>Are you suggesting there should be no difference if amp positive
>>>goes to speaker
>>>negative and amp negative goes to speaker positive? If so, my ears
>>>say
>>>otherwise.
>>>
>>>I believe the sharing of information, even when the opinions are
>>>contradictory,
>>>is healthy. It always helps to look at a situation from a different
>>>angle or
>>>perspective. many times one sees something he/she never noticed
>>>before.
>>>
>>>Thank you for your insights Mark. I never realized that the speaker
>>>output was
>>>in AC current before.
>>>
>>>DBF
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------
>>>From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
>>>To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
>>>Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>>>Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM
>>>
>>>Hello Duane.  No, it is AC.   Direct Current would do like your
>>>battery did,
>>>causing the speaker diaphragm to move in ONE direction, which may
>>>make a
>>>"pop", but not "audio".  It is very convenient for the audiophile to
>>>use the
>>>markings as you have noted, and that is correct.  However, if you
>>>have a
>>>stereo set up, just try this.  REVERSE the wires to both speakers.
>>>You will
>>>not hear a difference.   REVERSE only one.  Then, you will get the
>>>KARAOKE
>>>effect, where parts of the song are "nulled", due to the
>>>out-of-phase
>>>presentation of the sound waves. You will sometimes hear this on an
>>>FM
>>>stereo broadcast, when the engineer mis-wired the hook ups to the
>>>board and
>>>created this "null", which creates a funny sound, and if the input
>>>is
>>>actually MONO, will drop the audio output quite low.
>>>I am not trying to disagree with anybody, just sharing with this
>>>great
>>>group.  I hope Robert McKee understands that!  After all, I hate to
>>>think
>>>all my years of being in the stereo business, and then as a
>>>broadcast
>>>engineer, do not go to waste!    Cheers .. hope all had a happy
>>>fourth of
>>>july weekend, we did here, now ready for wife and I celebrating our
>>>number
>>>forty three anniversary, on the tenth.   Mark
>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
>>>To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
>>>Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:09 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bob,
>>>>
>>>>I would not call what he said exactly a 'flame', so let us not
>>>
>>>permit a
>>>
>>>>discussion to get out of hand gentleman. We can agree to disagree
>>>
>>>and
>>>still not
>>>
>>>>short circuits.
>>>>
>>>>In my mind, the positive speaker terminal on the amplifier should
>>>
>>>go to
>>>the
>>>
>>>>positive terminal on the speaker.
>>>>
>>>>Isn't it DC to the speaker not AC?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----------
>>>>From: Robert    J. McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
>>>>To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
>>>>Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>>>>Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:04 PM
>>>>
>>>>Not important???  What do you think puts the punch in any sound
>>>>from a bass drum to a triangle... sucking or blowing?  Think
>>>
>>>about
>>>
>>>>that for a bit before flaming.
>>>>Bob McKee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>[Original Message]
>>>>>From: AA6DX <aa6dx@pacbell.net>
>>>>>To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
>>>>>Date: 7/7/03 4:57:02 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>>>>>
>>>>>I now remember.  Yes, this is the way the AR speakers were put
>>>>
>>>together.
>>>
>>>>>There were long, narrow  staples holding the grill in place.
>>>>
>>>That is
>>>
>>>>>factory, Duane.
>>>>>As you know, but I itereate, for those reading who may not know,
>>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>polarity is not necessarily important, as long as both speakers
>>>>
>>>are the
>>>
>>>>>same, and hooked up the same, to keep them in phase. We are
>>>>
>>>dealing with
>>>
>>>>>alternating current here, but they both need to putting the
>>>>
>>>oooom in the
>>>
>>>>>oooom pah pah at the same time in the same direction.   In later
>>>>
>>>years,
>>>
>>>>when
>>>>
>>>>>replacing the components, most shops would put velcro on the
>>>>
>>>grilles to
>>>
>>>>>re-mount them.  Cheers, y'all .. Mark
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
>>>>>To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:21 PM
>>>>>Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ok, the old blind wonder dude got into the adventurous mood
>>>>>
>>>and took a
>>>
>>>>>serious
>>>>>
>>>>>>squint at the AR-4's. The grill is held in place by six
>>>>>
>>>staples, three
>>>
>>>>>down each
>>>>>
>>>>>>side. The staple is long enough to go through the grill
>>>>>
>>>material, the
>>>
>>>>wood
>>>>
>>>>>panel
>>>>>
>>>>>>behind it and still hit the main wood of the cabinet. I can
>>>>>
>>>not state
>>>
>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>>this
>>>>>
>>>>>>is factory, but it certainly appears that way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When the cabinet is vertical, looking at it from the back,
>>>>>
>>>with two
>>>
>>>>>speaker
>>>>>
>>>>>>terminals vertical top to bottom and tweeter pot control just
>>>>>
>>>to their
>>>
>>>>>right,
>>>>>
>>>>>>the top terminal is negative and the bottom one is positive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Question: the suspension around the edge of the woofer speaker
>>>>>
>>>cone,
>>>
>>>>what
>>>>
>>>>>is it?
>>>>>
>>>>>>Is it supposed to be somewhat soft?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>FYI: I guessed the polarity right by ear. I tested it today
>>>>>
>>>with a
>>>
>>>>battery
>>>>
>>>>>to be
>>>>>
>>>>>>sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Duane W8DBF
>>>>>
>>________________________________________________________________
>>The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
>>Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
>>Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>>_______________________________________________
>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
>>List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>>** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> 
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul  8 21:01:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Gerry Steffens)
Date: Tue Jul  8 20:01:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Update On AR-4 Info
In-Reply-To: <3F0B4F09.5030309@csnsys.com>
Message-ID: <006f01c345ac$70073d80$6500a8c0@cb450403a>

It is strange that no one has addressed the physical aspects of speaker
connection like thrust force, cone travel, response to wave-shape (wave
front particularly), etc.  In addition to more modern literature, you
might check out some of the speaker documentation put out by Jensen,
Western Electric, Utah and others as early as the 1930s.  It tends to be
more specific than the newer info regarding polarity.  I learned my
lessons the hard way on a mid 30s L-18 Jensen (18 inch theater and later
organ speaker) hooked to a parallel, push-pull quad of 2A3 single
plates.  I had been warned but being a younger know-it-all engineer, I
though I knew better.

One of the businesses in which I am a participant is a speaker repair
shop.  Y'all just keep hookin' those critters up backwards so they suck
the cone in instead of forcing it out on the leading edge wave-front of
a good firm drum beat and crank the volume to the max too!  Daddy wants
more boat-anchor radios and some more vintage audio equipment.

Cheers,

Gerry

Collecting & Restoring E.H. Scott, 
McMurdo Silver, Hallicrafters, Zenith 
Transoceanic and any other interesting 
Radios and audio equipment since 1959
Gerald Steffens P.E.


 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Jul 13 00:42:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Scott)
Date: Sat Jul 12 23:42:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] test-ignore
Message-ID: <3F10D3AB.3020409@netsync.net>

filter test  pse ignore


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul 14 22:57:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Jul 14 21:57:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] W8DBF Has Left The Stage -
Message-ID: <200307150151.h6F1poV30430@hades.usol.com>

	
As announced during the Sunday July 13th HCI 20 meter Net, I am leaving all
things Hallicrafters, vintage, SWL and pretty much everything else, 
indefinitely	
	
If any of you encounter a problem with any list I currently administrate, please
contact Al Waller, K3TKJ, at: k3tkj@qsl.net He will be handling things until
return. 	
	
Briefly, i went for a routine doctor's visit a week ago today. It was time for
my annual physical anyhow, so while I was there I had the blood work done. 	
	
The next day the doctor called and told me that he wanted me in the hospital
immediately for a three unit, (pint) transfusion. I was stunned. My hemoglobin
was 6.8, less than half of normal. Everything to do with Iron was a mile below
the bottom of the scale. Such as Iron from 35-150, mine was 7. Additional blood
tests showed the only thing wrong with my blood, was almost no Iron. Hence, the
bone marrow uses Iron to produce hemoglobin, and I had no Iron. What hemoglobin
was stored in reserve in the liver had been used up. I was alive, he was not
sure why, but running on less than the fumes from an empty gas tank.        	
	
Then he totally knocked me off the chair when he told me the probable cause was
advanced colon cancer. I had not had any signs of blood in the urine or stool,
and the urine test showed none whatsoever. 	
	
Tomorrow morning I am in the hospital for a transfusion. Then more blood work.
Then I am in the hospital for colon, stomach and other intrusive tests. The
normal six to eight week waiting period is being waived, as he figures I won't
be alive by then. 	
	
That is a brief overview of what has happened to cause me to put my life on
hold. I hope there is not a SK sale in my near future and I hope I will survive
whatever is going on inside me. Frankly, right now, my future is hour by hour.
Why am I still home? Well, first I had to get some areas of my life taken care
of in the event I could not manage them myself and second because I am too
blasted determined to continue on and pretend this is not really happening. But
if I get any weaker, I won't be here, so it is time to put my life in God's
hands, do what the doctor says and try to think positive thoughts. I am not yet
ready to write Frogzilla's last chapter! 	
	
Keep the Hallicrafters, and other vintage tube gear, glowing for me and keep
this list active, productive and peaceful. If there is any way to be on the air
Wednesday night, I will be there! If it is possible to do the Saturday and
Sunday Nets, I will be there! But if I am not there, I hope that one or two of
you will step up to the plate and pinch hit for me as NCS. 	
	
Keep the HCI web site furnished with material and help the Web Master Fred
Mooney, KA1DGL, keep it going. Fred and I have carried the web site on our
shoulders through thick and thin. Craig Carter has done a marvelous job handling
the 'forsale-swap' area the past year and a half. (thank you Craig!) Whether I
go on, or not, I want the HCI concept, the HCI Nets and the HCI web site to
survive. So please keep those things that still go glow in the night lit.  	
	
I will not be answering e-mail for a while, but if I am able, I will be reading
it. If I have the strength, I 'may' answer a few now and then.   	
	
Take care my friends, thank you for everything over the years, keep Frogzilla
out of the Sport's Illustrated swim suit photo sessions, keep those Halli's lit
and God willing, I shall return. 	
	
Duane Fischer, W8DBF/W9WZE	
dfischer@usol.com   	



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul 15 18:07:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Salmons, Michael)
Date: Tue Jul 15 17:07:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] W8DBF Has Left The Stage -
Message-ID: <B514E128008FB148957242A1D71260B61ED965@COL-EMAIL3.col.missouri.edu>

Duane,

I'm sure I speak for all members of the list when I say my thoughts and =
prayers are with you. Your inquiring and insightful posts will be sorely =
missed. Take care of yourself and please drop us a line if and when you =
feel like it.

Michael Salmons

-----Original Message-----
From: Duane Fischer, W8DBF [mailto:dfischer@usol.com]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 8:51 PM
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] W8DBF Has Left The Stage -



=09
As announced during the Sunday July 13th HCI 20 meter Net, I am leaving =
all
things Hallicrafters, vintage, SWL and pretty much everything else,=20
indefinitely=09
=09
If any of you encounter a problem with any list I currently =
administrate, please
contact Al Waller, K3TKJ, at: k3tkj@qsl.net He will be handling things =
until
return. =09
=09
Briefly, i went for a routine doctor's visit a week ago today. It was =
time for
my annual physical anyhow, so while I was there I had the blood work =
done. =09
=09
The next day the doctor called and told me that he wanted me in the =
hospital
immediately for a three unit, (pint) transfusion. I was stunned. My =
hemoglobin
was 6.8, less than half of normal. Everything to do with Iron was a mile =
below
the bottom of the scale. Such as Iron from 35-150, mine was 7. =
Additional blood
tests showed the only thing wrong with my blood, was almost no Iron. =
Hence, the
bone marrow uses Iron to produce hemoglobin, and I had no Iron. What =
hemoglobin
was stored in reserve in the liver had been used up. I was alive, he was =
not
sure why, but running on less than the fumes from an empty gas tank.     =
   =09
=09
Then he totally knocked me off the chair when he told me the probable =
cause was
advanced colon cancer. I had not had any signs of blood in the urine or =
stool,
and the urine test showed none whatsoever. =09
=09
Tomorrow morning I am in the hospital for a transfusion. Then more blood =
work.
Then I am in the hospital for colon, stomach and other intrusive tests. =
The
normal six to eight week waiting period is being waived, as he figures I =
won't
be alive by then. =09
=09
That is a brief overview of what has happened to cause me to put my life =
on
hold. I hope there is not a SK sale in my near future and I hope I will =
survive
whatever is going on inside me. Frankly, right now, my future is hour by =
hour.
Why am I still home? Well, first I had to get some areas of my life =
taken care
of in the event I could not manage them myself and second because I am =
too
blasted determined to continue on and pretend this is not really =
happening. But
if I get any weaker, I won't be here, so it is time to put my life in =
God's
hands, do what the doctor says and try to think positive thoughts. I am =
not yet
ready to write Frogzilla's last chapter! =09
=09
Keep the Hallicrafters, and other vintage tube gear, glowing for me and =
keep
this list active, productive and peaceful. If there is any way to be on =
the air
Wednesday night, I will be there! If it is possible to do the Saturday =
and
Sunday Nets, I will be there! But if I am not there, I hope that one or =
two of
you will step up to the plate and pinch hit for me as NCS. =09
=09
Keep the HCI web site furnished with material and help the Web Master =
Fred
Mooney, KA1DGL, keep it going. Fred and I have carried the web site on =
our
shoulders through thick and thin. Craig Carter has done a marvelous job =
handling
the 'forsale-swap' area the past year and a half. (thank you Craig!) =
Whether I
go on, or not, I want the HCI concept, the HCI Nets and the HCI web site =
to
survive. So please keep those things that still go glow in the night =
lit.  =09
=09
I will not be answering e-mail for a while, but if I am able, I will be =
reading
it. If I have the strength, I 'may' answer a few now and then.   =09
=09
Take care my friends, thank you for everything over the years, keep =
Frogzilla
out of the Sport's Illustrated swim suit photo sessions, keep those =
Halli's lit
and God willing, I shall return. =09
=09
Duane Fischer, W8DBF/W9WZE=09
dfischer@usol.com   =09


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **=20

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul 15 19:55:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Ken Sands)
Date: Tue Jul 15 18:55:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] W8DBF Has Left The Stage -
Message-ID: <20030715.185200.784.0.ken.sands@juno.com>

I will pray for you.....for a miracle.....He does work them...I know He
does...If He chooses you to go Home
may it be painless and soft as falling into your mothers arms........ God
Bless You....Forever.
Ken K8TFD

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul 17 13:14:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Scott)
Date: Thu Jul 17 12:14:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Test  ignore
Message-ID: <3F16CA08.8030700@netsync.net>

test ignore


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul 17 14:50:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Scott)
Date: Thu Jul 17 13:50:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] test ignore
Message-ID: <3F16E097.7010201@netsync.net>

test ignore ryryryryry nnnn



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Jul 17 18:49:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net)
Date: Thu Jul 17 17:49:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] test ignore
Message-ID: <20030717.174222.3736.5.k8omo@juno.com>

was that sent at 60 speed or 45 maybe 110 ascii?????


On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:44:55 -0400 Scott <smackay@netsync.net> writes:
> test ignore ryryryryry nnnn
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> 

"Remember the choice you make (your choice ) may not be the choice of
all"
Club Web Site
http://www.qsl.net/w8lky
Don-K8OMO trustee for W8LKY
 http://www.qsl.net/k8omo


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul 21 12:33:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Scott)
Date: Mon Jul 21 11:33:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Tests  ignore  Filter test
Message-ID: <3F1C0664.2020501@netsync.net>

Test ignore


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Jul 21 21:10:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Eugene Rippen)
Date: Mon Jul 21 20:10:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] FS:   Hickok Tube Checkers
Message-ID: <009101c34fe4$e7480360$0100a8c0@tower>

HICKOK  600 Tube Checker.  Looks good. Seems to work good, except the
reading appear a little high.  Chart is dated 10/1/60.  Use 30 pounds for
shipping weight. Shipping will be UPS.  $225.99 plus shipping.

http://www.foothill.net/~soundval/HK600-A.jpg
http://www.foothill.net/~soundval/HK600-B.jpg
http://www.foothill.net/~soundval/HK600-C.jpg


HICKOK 600A Tube Checker. Has good transformer, good meter. That is as far
as I went.  Case has no bottom, and the cover isn't that nice.  Chart works
well and is dated 10/1/66.  Use 30 pounds for shipping weight.  Shipping
will be by UPS.    $60.00 plus shipping.

http://www.foothill.net/~soundval/HK600A-1.jpg  (Jack the Cat is not
included)
http://www.foothill.net/~soundval/HK600A-2.jpg
http://www.foothill.net/~soundval/HK600A-3.jpg

Eugene Rippen,  WB6SZS
105 Donnington
Auburn,  CA 95603





From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul 22 14:26:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Jul 22 13:26:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] [grampian-list] Tests  ignore  Filter test
Message-ID: <200307221720.h6MHKXV01575@hades.usol.com>

This type of misuse is not tolerated and all who do it will be removed. The
owner of the qth.net system has been alerted to watch for any further posts by
you in the future.	
	
List Admin	


----------
From: Scott <smackay@netsync.net>
To: columbia-list@sailnet.net; grampian-list@sailnet.net;
vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; lakeerie-list@sailnet.net
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] [grampian-list] Tests  ignore  Filter test
Date: Monday, July 21, 2003 11:27 AM

Test ignore


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** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Jul 22 14:42:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Scott)
Date: Tue Jul 22 13:42:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] [grampian-list] Tests  ignore  Filter test
References: <200307221720.h6MHKXV01575@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <3F1D762B.7050908@netsync.net>

Duane,
How else can I  solve a filtering problem that distributes incoming mail 
to a variety of folders?
I have been subscribed to this list for quite a while and have only this 
once  sent test messages to straighten out a problem.  I'm sorry you 
were inconvenienced but I know of no other way to evaluate the fixes I made

S

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:

>This type of misuse is not tolerated and all who do it will be removed. The
>owner of the qth.net system has been alerted to watch for any further posts by
>you in the future.	
>	
>List Admin	
>
>
>----------
>From: Scott <smackay@netsync.net>
>To: columbia-list@sailnet.net; grampian-list@sailnet.net;
>vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net; lakeerie-list@sailnet.net
>Subject: [Vintage-Audio] [grampian-list] Tests  ignore  Filter test
>Date: Monday, July 21, 2003 11:27 AM
>
>Test ignore
>
>
>--
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>SailNet is small, focused friendly and proud of it.
>Visit www.sailnet.com to see how that difference pays for you.
>
>** 3 of 175 members support this list and save money with SailPerks **
>Visit http://www.sailnet.com/sailperks/ for details.
>
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: grampian-list-unsubscribe@sailnet.net
>Please email root@sailnet.com for human assistance
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
>List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
>_______________________________________________
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
>List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
>
>
>  
>



