From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sat Feb  1 07:57:05 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Phil T.)
Date: Sat Feb  1 07:57:05 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Manuals Needed
In-Reply-To: <200302010212.h112C6W27481@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030201075012.00b30300@vaxxine.com>

Duane,

I ran across a website devoted to Scott equipment.  Wherever that site was, 
I believe it had schematics for many old Scott receivers and amps. I know I 
downloaded schematics for the Scott I have downstairs (haven't looked at it 
in so long I can't even remember the number - it's a 350 B or a 450 or 
something like that). Try a google search for H.H. scott.

Phil

At 09:08 PM 1/31/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>
>Does anyone happen to have a manual, or a copy thereof, for the H. Scott 
>LT-100
>FM tuner and the LK-48 stereo amplifier? If so, please contact me. I am 
>glad to
>pay copying costs and mailing. Thank you.
>
>Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>dfischer@usol.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
>List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **




From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sat Feb  1 21:44:02 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Sat Feb  1 21:44:02 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
Message-ID: <200302020241.h122fCW10653@hades.usol.com>

	
If you have some Electro-Voice, Kenwood or other speakers with foam suspension,
I have found a place here in Michigan that will fix them. The cost for a twelve
inch woofer is $50. The lady has fifteen years experience and her work is
excellent. 	
	
Many have been told by Electro-Voice, in particular, that foam suspension
speakers were not repairable and to junk them. Hence, many nice systems were
destroyed, needlessly! The company just wanted you to buy a new pair. 	

	If you have some that need to have the foam replaced, or simply want speakers
rebuilt to their original factory condition, contact me for her contact info. 	
	
Duane W8DBF	
dfischer@usol.com  

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sat Feb  1 21:55:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Rick Gouge  VE7RiK)
Date: Sat Feb  1 21:55:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
References: <200302020241.h122fCW10653@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <009901c2ca66$1ea28ec0$b9acf4cc@w7u7f7>

Duane, Could i have that info please. I have some 10 inch speakers that need
the foam replace. Thankyou very much. Rick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 6:36 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers


>
>
> If you have some Electro-Voice, Kenwood or other speakers with foam
suspension,
> I have found a place here in Michigan that will fix them. The cost for a
twelve
> inch woofer is $50. The lady has fifteen years experience and her work is
> excellent.
>
> Many have been told by Electro-Voice, in particular, that foam suspension
> speakers were not repairable and to junk them. Hence, many nice systems
were
> destroyed, needlessly! The company just wanted you to buy a new pair.
>
> If you have some that need to have the foam replaced, or simply want
speakers
> rebuilt to their original factory condition, contact me for her contact
info.
>
> Duane W8DBF
> dfischer@usol.com
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Feb  2 00:47:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert Nickels)
Date: Sun Feb  2 00:47:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
References: <200302020241.h122fCW10653@hades.usol.com> <009901c2ca66$1ea28ec0$b9acf4cc@w7u7f7>
Message-ID: <005201c2ca7e$0ddbe4c0$fb396f0a@pavillion>

Hi Rick,

You can also do it yourself for a lot less money - typically $27 for a
pair - and avoid the hassle of shipping your speakers.  It's easy to do and
your speakers will sound like new again.  A couple of sources include:

http://www.speakerworks.net/kits.html
http://www.simplyspeakers.com/2doityourself.htm

Repair kits for over 1,000 speaker types are available - just search for
"foam surround replacement" on the web.  Good
luck,

73, Bob W9RAN


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Gouge VE7RiK" <ve7rik@midbc.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers


> Duane, Could i have that info please. I have some 10 inch speakers that
need
> the foam replace. Thankyou very much. Rick
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 6:36 PM
> Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
>
>
> >
> >
> > If you have some Electro-Voice, Kenwood or other speakers with foam
> suspension,
> > I have found a place here in Michigan that will fix them. The cost for a
> twelve
> > inch woofer is $50. The lady has fifteen years experience and her work
is
> > excellent.
> >
> > Many have been told by Electro-Voice, in particular, that foam
suspension
> > speakers were not repairable and to junk them. Hence, many nice systems
> were
> > destroyed, needlessly! The company just wanted you to buy a new pair.
> >
> > If you have some that need to have the foam replaced, or simply want
> speakers
> > rebuilt to their original factory condition, contact me for her contact
> info.
> >
> > Duane W8DBF
> > dfischer@usol.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **




From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Feb  2 00:58:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert  J.  McKee)
Date: Sun Feb  2 00:58:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
References: <200302020241.h122fCW10653@hades.usol.com> <009901c2ca66$1ea28ec0$b9acf4cc@w7u7f7> <005201c2ca7e$0ddbe4c0$fb396f0a@pavillion>
Message-ID: <037d01c2ca80$3da5dce0$cd2af7a5@b5z1q8>

Great info to know.  But does anyone know if someone
sells an elastomeric surround to replace the going-to-rot
again foam surrounds?
Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Nickels" <w9ran@ONERADIO.NET>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension
Speakers


> Hi Rick,
>
> You can also do it yourself for a lot less money - typically
$27 for a
> pair - and avoid the hassle of shipping your speakers.  It's
easy to do and
> your speakers will sound like new again.  A couple of
sources include:
>
> http://www.speakerworks.net/kits.html
> http://www.simplyspeakers.com/2doityourself.htm
>
> Repair kits for over 1,000 speaker types are available -
just search for
> "foam surround replacement" on the web.  Good
> luck,
>
> 73, Bob W9RAN
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick Gouge VE7RiK" <ve7rik@midbc.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension
Speakers
>
>
> > Duane, Could i have that info please. I have some 10 inch
speakers that
> need
> > the foam replace. Thankyou very much. Rick
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 6:36 PM
> > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension
Speakers
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > If you have some Electro-Voice, Kenwood or other
speakers with foam
> > suspension,
> > > I have found a place here in Michigan that will fix
them. The cost for a
> > twelve
> > > inch woofer is $50. The lady has fifteen years
experience and her work
> is
> > > excellent.
> > >
> > > Many have been told by Electro-Voice, in particular,
that foam
> suspension
> > > speakers were not repairable and to junk them. Hence,
many nice systems
> > were
> > > destroyed, needlessly! The company just wanted you to
buy a new pair.
> > >
> > > If you have some that need to have the foam replaced, or
simply want
> > speakers
> > > rebuilt to their original factory condition, contact me
for her contact
> > info.
> > >
> > > Duane W8DBF
> > > dfischer@usol.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Home:
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home:
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Feb  2 02:03:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Ed Tanton)
Date: Sun Feb  2 02:03:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
In-Reply-To: <037d01c2ca80$3da5dce0$cd2af7a5@b5z1q8>
References: <200302020241.h122fCW10653@hades.usol.com>
 <009901c2ca66$1ea28ec0$b9acf4cc@w7u7f7>
 <005201c2ca7e$0ddbe4c0$fb396f0a@pavillion>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030202015816.0347b7d8@pop.earthlink.net>

The foam surrounds are exactly what Bob is talking about. See my webpage 
pictures <http://www.n4xy.com/SPKR_Reconing.html> of the job I did on my 
AR-10s thanks to Simply Speakers' surrounds and glue.



73 Ed Tanton N4XY <n4xy@earthlink.net>

Ed Tanton N4XY
189 Pioneer Trail
Marietta, GA 30068-3466

website: http://www.n4xy.com

All emails <IN> & <OUT> checked by
Norton AntiVirus with AutoProtect

LM: ARRL QCWA AMSAT & INDEXA;
SEDXC NCDXA GACW QRP-ARCI
OK-QRP QRP-L #758 K2 (FT) #00057



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Feb  2 02:08:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Sun Feb  2 02:08:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
References: <200302020241.h122fCW10653@hades.usol.com> <009901c2ca66$1ea28ec0$b9acf4cc@w7u7f7> <005201c2ca7e$0ddbe4c0$fb396f0a@pavillion> <5.2.0.9.2.20030202015816.0347b7d8@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3E3CC3FE.3060006@csnsys.com>

I did one of my two 10 inch Advents. It is not a slamdunk to 
do and I made a real mess. I will do the other Advent 
someday. It works fine, but I got glue everywhere. The pair 
with instructions and glue and surrounds for two was $18.50. 
I have the two Quadraflexes to do and then I don't know what 
to do with them anyway...

WBob

Ed Tanton wrote:
> The foam surrounds are exactly what Bob is talking about. See my webpage 
> pictures <http://www.n4xy.com/SPKR_Reconing.html> of the job I did on my 
> AR-10s thanks to Simply Speakers' surrounds and glue.
> 
> 
> 
> 73 Ed Tanton N4XY <n4xy@earthlink.net>
> 
> Ed Tanton N4XY
> 189 Pioneer Trail
> Marietta, GA 30068-3466
> 
> website: http://www.n4xy.com
> 
> All emails <IN> & <OUT> checked by
> Norton AntiVirus with AutoProtect
> 
> LM: ARRL QCWA AMSAT & INDEXA;
> SEDXC NCDXA GACW QRP-ARCI
> OK-QRP QRP-L #758 K2 (FT) #00057
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Feb  2 03:02:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Rick Gouge  VE7RiK)
Date: Sun Feb  2 03:02:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
References: <200302020241.h122fCW10653@hades.usol.com> <009901c2ca66$1ea28ec0$b9acf4cc@w7u7f7> <005201c2ca7e$0ddbe4c0$fb396f0a@pavillion>
Message-ID: <00d701c2ca90$f73fcc50$b9acf4cc@w7u7f7>

Thank you very much Bob. that is what i need. Perfect. Rick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Nickels" <w9ran@ONERADIO.NET>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers


> Hi Rick,
>
> You can also do it yourself for a lot less money - typically $27 for a
> pair - and avoid the hassle of shipping your speakers.  It's easy to do
and
> your speakers will sound like new again.  A couple of sources include:
>
> http://www.speakerworks.net/kits.html
> http://www.simplyspeakers.com/2doityourself.htm
>
> Repair kits for over 1,000 speaker types are available - just search for
> "foam surround replacement" on the web.  Good
> luck,
>
> 73, Bob W9RAN
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick Gouge VE7RiK" <ve7rik@midbc.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
>
>
> > Duane, Could i have that info please. I have some 10 inch speakers that
> need
> > the foam replace. Thankyou very much. Rick
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 6:36 PM
> > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > If you have some Electro-Voice, Kenwood or other speakers with foam
> > suspension,
> > > I have found a place here in Michigan that will fix them. The cost for
a
> > twelve
> > > inch woofer is $50. The lady has fifteen years experience and her work
> is
> > > excellent.
> > >
> > > Many have been told by Electro-Voice, in particular, that foam
> suspension
> > > speakers were not repairable and to junk them. Hence, many nice
systems
> > were
> > > destroyed, needlessly! The company just wanted you to buy a new pair.
> > >
> > > If you have some that need to have the foam replaced, or simply want
> > speakers
> > > rebuilt to their original factory condition, contact me for her
contact
> > info.
> > >
> > > Duane W8DBF
> > > dfischer@usol.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Feb  2 09:24:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Sun Feb  2 09:24:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
Message-ID: <200302021420.h12EKcW12861@hades.usol.com>

What Judith Fulkerson does will likely outlive the owner of said speaker!	
	
DBF	


----------
From: Robert  J.  McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
Date: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:59 AM

Great info to know.  But does anyone know if someone
sells an elastomeric surround to replace the going-to-rot
again foam surrounds?
Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Nickels" <w9ran@ONERADIO.NET>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension
Speakers


> Hi Rick,
>
> You can also do it yourself for a lot less money - typically
$27 for a
> pair - and avoid the hassle of shipping your speakers.  It's
easy to do and
> your speakers will sound like new again.  A couple of
sources include:
>
> http://www.speakerworks.net/kits.html
> http://www.simplyspeakers.com/2doityourself.htm
>
> Repair kits for over 1,000 speaker types are available -
just search for
> "foam surround replacement" on the web.  Good
> luck,
>
> 73, Bob W9RAN
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick Gouge VE7RiK" <ve7rik@midbc.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension
Speakers
>
>
> > Duane, Could i have that info please. I have some 10 inch
speakers that
> need
> > the foam replace. Thankyou very much. Rick
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 6:36 PM
> > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension
Speakers
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > If you have some Electro-Voice, Kenwood or other
speakers with foam
> > suspension,
> > > I have found a place here in Michigan that will fix
them. The cost for a
> > twelve
> > > inch woofer is $50. The lady has fifteen years
experience and her work
> is
> > > excellent.
> > >
> > > Many have been told by Electro-Voice, in particular,
that foam
> suspension
> > > speakers were not repairable and to junk them. Hence,
many nice systems
> > were
> > > destroyed, needlessly! The company just wanted you to
buy a new pair.
> > >
> > > If you have some that need to have the foam replaced, or
simply want
> > speakers
> > > rebuilt to their original factory condition, contact me
for her contact
> > info.
> > >
> > > Duane W8DBF
> > > dfischer@usol.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Home:
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home:
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Feb  2 13:14:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Ed Tanton)
Date: Sun Feb  2 13:14:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
In-Reply-To: <3E3CC3FE.3060006@csnsys.com>
References: <200302020241.h122fCW10653@hades.usol.com>
 <009901c2ca66$1ea28ec0$b9acf4cc@w7u7f7>
 <005201c2ca7e$0ddbe4c0$fb396f0a@pavillion>
 <5.2.0.9.2.20030202015816.0347b7d8@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030202124802.03466538@pop.earthlink.net>

It IS a little tricky. The thing I realized by my second speaker was that 
you should not be sparing with the cement. I know that seems contradictory 
to what you just wrote, but it is true. Once you have cleaned up the 
remains of your surround thoroughly, lay out the surround WITHOUT GLUE and 
get confident that the surround is the right one, and pointed in the right 
direction. Which, by the way, is simply that direction (IN or OUT) it fits 
best without rubbing the frame.

Then and only then do you apply the glue. A bead size that is greater than 
1/8" but certainly less than 1/4" all around the inner edge-ONLY-is about 
right. Resist the desire to mess with the glue after it's down. It won't 
matter a bit, and you will indeed make a mess. look all around to see that 
the surround is centered, and that it won't rub against the frame-now wait 
5 or 10 minutes for the 1st ring of glue to set.

The important thing here is that you have a 100% seal-on BOTH the inner and 
outer edges. If air somehow leaks through, your resulting audio will 
suffer-probably seriously. Do the outer ring of glue... about the same 
sized bead. The contact cement used dries very rapidly-but not so fast that 
you cannot add some on that outer edge-if necessary-but use enough to start 
with, and avoid having to fool with it.

Wait half an hour for it to set up and check the cone travel causing the 
surround to rub against the frame. By then it's too late to help it, but as 
long as you have it apart, you can try again. That's another point: this 
isn't rocket science, and isn't set in stone. Granted, if you screwed up, 
it's a wasted $10-$15, but that's ALL it is. Your speaker isn't ruined, and 
I'm sure your next try will be better. I am not the handiest person in the 
world mechanically, and if I got it right the 1st time, so can you.

Again, see the photos on my webpage 
<http://www.n4xy.com/SPKR_Reconing.html>, or read the facts at 
<http://www.simplyspeakers.com> (or whoever else you have found selling 
surrounds. I was very pleased with these guys-prompt shipping, and not in 
to big a hurry to answer my questions.



73 Ed Tanton N4XY <n4xy@earthlink.net>

Ed Tanton N4XY
189 Pioneer Trail
Marietta, GA 30068-3466

website: http://www.n4xy.com

All emails <IN> & <OUT> checked by
Norton AntiVirus with AutoProtect

LM: ARRL QCWA AMSAT & INDEXA;
SEDXC NCDXA GACW QRP-ARCI
OK-QRP QRP-L #758 K2 (FT) #00057



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Feb  2 16:39:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Sun Feb  2 16:39:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
Message-ID: <200302022136.h12La1W06153@hades.usol.com>

Yo Ed, 	
	
If you have all of these nice vintage speakers down there, how come you are
holding out on me, heh? Maybe we need to trade something here - 	
	
Duane W8DBF	
	


----------
From: Ed Tanton <n4xy@earthlink.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
Date: Sunday, February 02, 2003 1:11 PM

It IS a little tricky. The thing I realized by my second speaker was that 
you should not be sparing with the cement. I know that seems contradictory 
to what you just wrote, but it is true. Once you have cleaned up the 
remains of your surround thoroughly, lay out the surround WITHOUT GLUE and 
get confident that the surround is the right one, and pointed in the right 
direction. Which, by the way, is simply that direction (IN or OUT) it fits 
best without rubbing the frame.

Then and only then do you apply the glue. A bead size that is greater than 
1/8" but certainly less than 1/4" all around the inner edge-ONLY-is about 
right. Resist the desire to mess with the glue after it's down. It won't 
matter a bit, and you will indeed make a mess. look all around to see that 
the surround is centered, and that it won't rub against the frame-now wait 
5 or 10 minutes for the 1st ring of glue to set.

The important thing here is that you have a 100% seal-on BOTH the inner and 
outer edges. If air somehow leaks through, your resulting audio will 
suffer-probably seriously. Do the outer ring of glue... about the same 
sized bead. The contact cement used dries very rapidly-but not so fast that 
you cannot add some on that outer edge-if necessary-but use enough to start 
with, and avoid having to fool with it.

Wait half an hour for it to set up and check the cone travel causing the 
surround to rub against the frame. By then it's too late to help it, but as 
long as you have it apart, you can try again. That's another point: this 
isn't rocket science, and isn't set in stone. Granted, if you screwed up, 
it's a wasted $10-$15, but that's ALL it is. Your speaker isn't ruined, and 
I'm sure your next try will be better. I am not the handiest person in the 
world mechanically, and if I got it right the 1st time, so can you.

Again, see the photos on my webpage 
<http://www.n4xy.com/SPKR_Reconing.html>, or read the facts at 
<http://www.simplyspeakers.com> (or whoever else you have found selling 
surrounds. I was very pleased with these guys-prompt shipping, and not in 
to big a hurry to answer my questions.



73 Ed Tanton N4XY <n4xy@earthlink.net>

Ed Tanton N4XY
189 Pioneer Trail
Marietta, GA 30068-3466

website: http://www.n4xy.com

All emails <IN> & <OUT> checked by
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LM: ARRL QCWA AMSAT & INDEXA;
SEDXC NCDXA GACW QRP-ARCI
OK-QRP QRP-L #758 K2 (FT) #00057


_______________________________________________
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** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Feb  2 19:57:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Ed Tanton)
Date: Sun Feb  2 19:57:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
In-Reply-To: <200302022136.h12La1W06153@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030202193106.034808f0@pop.earthlink.net>

Hi Duane... I have only the 2 ARs (and 2 Polks I picked up cheap [abt $100 
or so as I recall-plus S/H] either new, or as-new, for the basement.) 
They'll have to pry my ARs from my cold dead hands!!!

I have a story about the ARs. They're 4 ohms. Way back in the early 
eighties, my wife got a bonus at her work, and my piece of it was a new 
HI-FI. All I knew for sure was that I loved my old AR-3s (Lord I wish I had 
kept 'em!) so I got ARs for this upgrade. Also, I had a Fisher 500-C that I 
sold with the AR-3s. Anyway, I got a Sony STRV-35 and the AR-10s. This 
totally with the 'approval' of the salesman at the Hi-Fi store ("Hi-Fi 
Buys" here in Marietta.)

Well... it didn't take more than a couple of months before it quit. Had 
been great 'til then. Turns out the STRV-35 is not designed for 4 ohms-much 
less the 70 watts it puts into that impedance. The dealer replaced the 
finals, so to speak, and it ran a couple of weeks. ASIDE: By then I knew 
how to "test" the unit: one of the Boston songs would get the unit hot 
enough to literally SMELL the hot metal!

Next time, they messed around, and finally passed it on to Sony to fix, 
taking maybe a month. Picked it up at Sony. Lasted a day or two... uh... 
under... uh... "now-routine-testing" now that I knew how. THIS time I took 
it back to the Sony Service Center myself, not the dealer. I went in, asked 
for the service manager, showed him the paperwork, fussed in a reasonable 
manner, explaining the lengthy problems. He offered to fix it free (or 
maybe just the labor) one more time, and swore it'd be OK.

Let me point out: honesty required that I DID tell him about the 4 ohm 
business, and he made a point of saying it was not designed for 4 ohm 
speakers. Three weeks later, I picked it up. Never broke again. Still have 
it, and it works great... to this day.

What did they do differently? Available at the same time were virtually 
(physically) identical STRV-50s and STRV-75s. My guess is that I now own 
what is effectively an STRV-75... e.g. the STRV-75 set of finals-and 
probably the drivers too.


73 Ed Tanton N4XY <n4xy@earthlink.net>

Ed Tanton N4XY
189 Pioneer Trail
Marietta, GA 30068-3466

website: http://www.n4xy.com

All emails <IN> & <OUT> checked by
Norton AntiVirus with AutoProtect

LM: ARRL QCWA AMSAT & INDEXA;
SEDXC NCDXA GACW QRP-ARCI
OK-QRP QRP-L #758 K2 (FT) #00057



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sun Feb  2 20:11:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Sun Feb  2 20:11:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
Message-ID: <200302030108.h1318MW20064@hades.usol.com>

Hi Ed, 	
	
Fascinating story, indeed. Sometimes it just takes the right person who knows
what he is doing to fix it. 	
	
Would you keep an eye open for some speakers for me? Frankly, I resent having to
ask sighted people all of the time to look for things I should be able to look
for myself. Simple things, like checking the local newspaper classified ads. I
can not do it and they do not want to be bothered, more than once. 	
	
Duane	


----------
From: Ed Tanton <n4xy@earthlink.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
Date: Sunday, February 02, 2003 7:54 PM

Hi Duane... I have only the 2 ARs (and 2 Polks I picked up cheap [abt $100 
or so as I recall-plus S/H] either new, or as-new, for the basement.) 
They'll have to pry my ARs from my cold dead hands!!!

I have a story about the ARs. They're 4 ohms. Way back in the early 
eighties, my wife got a bonus at her work, and my piece of it was a new 
HI-FI. All I knew for sure was that I loved my old AR-3s (Lord I wish I had 
kept 'em!) so I got ARs for this upgrade. Also, I had a Fisher 500-C that I 
sold with the AR-3s. Anyway, I got a Sony STRV-35 and the AR-10s. This 
totally with the 'approval' of the salesman at the Hi-Fi store ("Hi-Fi 
Buys" here in Marietta.)

Well... it didn't take more than a couple of months before it quit. Had 
been great 'til then. Turns out the STRV-35 is not designed for 4 ohms-much 
less the 70 watts it puts into that impedance. The dealer replaced the 
finals, so to speak, and it ran a couple of weeks. ASIDE: By then I knew 
how to "test" the unit: one of the Boston songs would get the unit hot 
enough to literally SMELL the hot metal!

Next time, they messed around, and finally passed it on to Sony to fix, 
taking maybe a month. Picked it up at Sony. Lasted a day or two... uh... 
under... uh... "now-routine-testing" now that I knew how. THIS time I took 
it back to the Sony Service Center myself, not the dealer. I went in, asked 
for the service manager, showed him the paperwork, fussed in a reasonable 
manner, explaining the lengthy problems. He offered to fix it free (or 
maybe just the labor) one more time, and swore it'd be OK.

Let me point out: honesty required that I DID tell him about the 4 ohm 
business, and he made a point of saying it was not designed for 4 ohm 
speakers. Three weeks later, I picked it up. Never broke again. Still have 
it, and it works great... to this day.

What did they do differently? Available at the same time were virtually 
(physically) identical STRV-50s and STRV-75s. My guess is that I now own 
what is effectively an STRV-75... e.g. the STRV-75 set of finals-and 
probably the drivers too.


73 Ed Tanton N4XY <n4xy@earthlink.net>

Ed Tanton N4XY
189 Pioneer Trail
Marietta, GA 30068-3466

website: http://www.n4xy.com

All emails <IN> & <OUT> checked by
Norton AntiVirus with AutoProtect

LM: ARRL QCWA AMSAT & INDEXA;
SEDXC NCDXA GACW QRP-ARCI
OK-QRP QRP-L #758 K2 (FT) #00057


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Feb  3 08:13:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Fred Olsen)
Date: Mon Feb  3 08:13:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
References: <200302020241.h122fCW10653@hades.usol.com> <009901c2ca66$1ea28ec0$b9acf4cc@w7u7f7> <005201c2ca7e$0ddbe4c0$fb396f0a@pavillion>
Message-ID: <3E3E6A43.3020001@execpc.com>

And there's these guys.
http://www.speakersupply.com/ (Layne Audio)

They seem to get some good mention here and there.  They have kits and 
do repairs.  I'm trying lately to get a friend here to repair the 
surrounds on the woofs in his AR-9's before the cones go.

Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Feb  3 10:07:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Feb  3 10:07:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
Message-ID: <200302031503.h13F3LW01573@hades.usol.com>

The question becomes, who can glue the speaker and not become its life long
partner! Wasn't it Elvis Presley's hit "Stuck On You"? (grin) 	


----------
From: Fred Olsen <fwolsen@execpc.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
Date: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:10 AM

And there's these guys.
http://www.speakersupply.com/ (Layne Audio)

They seem to get some good mention here and there.  They have kits and 
do repairs.  I'm trying lately to get a friend here to repair the 
surrounds on the woofs in his AR-9's before the cones go.

Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Feb  3 11:48:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Mon Feb  3 11:48:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
References: <200302031503.h13F3LW01573@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <3E3E9D67.7090504@csnsys.com>

I have found that the glue used for reconing is the 
stickiest stuff made. once it is somewhere it is there.

WBob

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> The question becomes, who can glue the speaker and not become its life long
> partner! Wasn't it Elvis Presley's hit "Stuck On You"? (grin) 	
> 
> 
> ----------
> From: Fred Olsen <fwolsen@execpc.com>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Repairing Foam Suspension Speakers
> Date: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:10 AM
> 
> And there's these guys.
> http://www.speakersupply.com/ (Layne Audio)
> 
> They seem to get some good mention here and there.  They have kits and 
> do repairs.  I'm trying lately to get a friend here to repair the 
> surrounds on the woofs in his AR-9's before the cones go.
> 
> Fred
> -----
> <><
> -----
> Outgoing checked by Norton AV
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> 
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb  4 17:51:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Feb  4 17:51:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <200302042248.h14MmBW30097@hades.usol.com>

	
While I am biding my time, and not patiently, searching for a pair of vintage
speakers to compliment my H. H. Scott LT-110 FM multiplex tuner and LK-72B
integrated stereo amplifier, I connected it up to a new pair of Paradigm Monitor
9 speakers. Wow! I could not believe the incredible fidelity and acoustic
dynamics that filled the room. 	
	
I was going to bi-wire the speakers to increase the highs, but this pure
Titanium dome tweeter does not need any help. The audio is crisp, crystal clear
and true.	
	
It crosses over at 2 Khz and 400 Hz and uses part of the eight inch mid range to
extend the bass response of the eight inch woofer. 	
	
It requires fifteen watts RMS to drive each speaker and the LK-72B delivers 36.
Nonetheless, I have the volume only one fourth open and the room is filled with
sound, plenty of sound. I have owned, and heard, other Paradigm speakers and
always considered them as  mid way between good and very good. However, the
Monitor 9 series is vastly superior to the 9S series of several years ago. These
are without any doubt the best I have heard by Paradigm.	
	
I compared the LK-72B with a Yamaha receiver that powers my surround sound
system. I tried the Paradigm Monitor 9 speakers on both amplifiers with the same
music. The H. Scott had a depth and warmth not present in the Yamaha. While the
Yamaha sounds very nice, the H. Scott from 1963 brings the music to life.
Difficult to explain, but it is easy to hear. 	
	
If you get a chance to hear the Paradigm Monitor 9 speakers, do so. they sell
for $850 a pair and weigh 53 pounds each. I was impressed, and that is saying
something! this old audio file is not easily impressed by anyone's anything
anymore. 	
	
The LK-72B rocks on - 	
	
Duane W8DBF	


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb  4 18:21:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Phil Lefever)
Date: Tue Feb  4 18:21:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
In-Reply-To: <200302042248.h14MmBW30097@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030204171141.02170830@pop.isd.net>

>While I am biding my time, and not patiently, searching for a pair of vintage
>speakers to compliment my H. H. Scott LT-110 FM multiplex tuner and LK-72B
>integrated stereo amplifier, I connected it up to a new pair of Paradigm 
>Monitor
>9 speakers. Wow! I could not believe the incredible fidelity and acoustic
>dynamics that filled the room.

Don't listen to them too long before getting the vintage speakers! You
won't what to listen to the older speakers after you have spent time
with modern high quality speakers like these ;)

I full well expect to be flamed for a comment like this on a vintage list
but the one component I dislike are old speakers. Quality modern designs
work very well and the aging components of older speakers aren't getting
any better with time. Of course this is _my opinion_ and others may differ!

>I was going to bi-wire the speakers to increase the highs, but this pure
>Titanium dome tweeter does not need any help. The audio is crisp, crystal 
>clear
>and true.

I'd love to hear a good explanation of the physics of how bi-wiring a
pair of speakers alters how the cables work. I full well understand
bi-amplification and I haven't owned a system for over 20 years that
hasn't been bi-amplified. My question is what does bi-wiring do that
is beneficial? It is much like what does a high buck set of speaker
wires do that is beneficial. If one didn't _know_ that a pair of speakers
was bi-wired could they tell? Hmmmm, Likely more flames I guess.

73 all

Phil



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lefever - Burnsville, MN
Amateur Radio Callsign - KB0NES EN34jt
C8-SP XT-10 C102 80WV
MNAA - Minnesota Amateur Astronomers


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb  4 18:43:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Feb  4 18:43:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <200302042340.h14NeNW01057@hades.usol.com>

Phil. 	
	
First, I have James B. Lansing Century L-100 from 1974 on my modern system, and
nothing modern can equal them. My cousin has the Bozak B310 Concert Grand from
1971 with modern Macintosh gear and they are unequaled in audio reproduction. I
have heard many modern speakers, such as the B&W 630, that I use as studio
monitors, and very very few can equal the sound of good quality older speakers
prior to 1980. 	
	
This particular pair of Paradigm is by far the best I have heard of their
products.	
	
The bi-wiring does make an audible difference on the high end. By running the
power from the amplifier in parallel to the top tweeter only and the bottom mid
range and woofer speakers, more power gets to the tweeter. There is a
discernable increase, be it modest, in the ability of the tweeter to perform
better. I have listened to several system wired both ways and I can tell the
difference. Now I am a serious listener Phil and I hear what many others gloss
over. While a seperate power amp would make more of a difference, bi-wiring can
make an improvement, given the right amplifier and room acoustics. 	
	
It is just the advantage of wiring in parallel, as opposed to in series.	
	
Duane W8DBF	


----------
From: Phil Lefever <plefever@isd.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Date: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:20 PM


>While I am biding my time, and not patiently, searching for a pair of vintage
>speakers to compliment my H. H. Scott LT-110 FM multiplex tuner and LK-72B
>integrated stereo amplifier, I connected it up to a new pair of Paradigm 
>Monitor
>9 speakers. Wow! I could not believe the incredible fidelity and acoustic
>dynamics that filled the room.

Don't listen to them too long before getting the vintage speakers! You
won't what to listen to the older speakers after you have spent time
with modern high quality speakers like these ;)

I full well expect to be flamed for a comment like this on a vintage list
but the one component I dislike are old speakers. Quality modern designs
work very well and the aging components of older speakers aren't getting
any better with time. Of course this is _my opinion_ and others may differ!

>I was going to bi-wire the speakers to increase the highs, but this pure
>Titanium dome tweeter does not need any help. The audio is crisp, crystal 
>clear
>and true.

I'd love to hear a good explanation of the physics of how bi-wiring a
pair of speakers alters how the cables work. I full well understand
bi-amplification and I haven't owned a system for over 20 years that
hasn't been bi-amplified. My question is what does bi-wiring do that
is beneficial? It is much like what does a high buck set of speaker
wires do that is beneficial. If one didn't _know_ that a pair of speakers
was bi-wired could they tell? Hmmmm, Likely more flames I guess.

73 all

Phil



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lefever - Burnsville, MN
Amateur Radio Callsign - KB0NES EN34jt
C8-SP XT-10 C102 80WV
MNAA - Minnesota Amateur Astronomers

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb  4 20:47:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Phil Lefever)
Date: Tue Feb  4 20:47:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
In-Reply-To: <200302042340.h14NeNW01057@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030204175017.0216cdc0@pop.isd.net>

>The bi-wiring does make an audible difference on the high end. By running the
>power from the amplifier in parallel to the top tweeter only and the 
>bottom mid
>range and woofer speakers, more power gets to the tweeter.

Color me skeptical I guess. Provided you are using reasonably low resistance
wires adding a set in parallel will make an EXTREMELY small difference in
power transfer, well below human audibility.

If we analyze the circuit assuming a speaker impedance of 6 ohms and a total
cable resistance of .4 ohms we would normally see a loss of only 6.25% at
the speaker. If we run another identical cable in parallel now the loss
drops to 3.2% an improvement of 3% or about .1db. While I will never tell
anyone they can't hear something, I seriously doubt that humans can detect
a small change like this statistically in a double blind test.

A change in power transfer is therefore a very unlikely player in any
advantage of bi-wiring. There could be a number of other possibilities
such as capacitance and inductance etc as an AC signal is much more complex
then simple DC. I still doubt these things as audio frequencies are very
low in the spectrum. I am still very open for more discussion on this
though!

>I have listened to several system wired both ways and I can tell the
>difference.

Did in any of these comparisons you ever not know the system was bi-wired?
Again not saying it makes no difference to you audibly but as humans we
often perceive a difference just because we are expecting one. Of course
even if it is a psychological difference it is still valid as the listening
experience is psychoacoustical and we can never separate our mind from the
mix. If waxing an amplifier makes it sound better buy a big can of wax and
enjoy your music! Even if the difference can't be measured it is still a valid
difference to the guy with the wax ;)

>Now I am a serious listener Phil and I hear what many others gloss
>over.

I consider myself to have excellent hearing as well. I play Cello and Guitar
and I can still hear the 15KHz flyback transformers in TVs. I laugh at people
that tell me I can hear something (how can they know they don't have my ears!).
My issue is my training in electronics and recording technology that tells me
differently. What we perceive can be altered easily.

Good discussion in any case!

73 and enjoy the Scott/Paradigm combo bi-wired or not!

Phil


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lefever - Burnsville, MN
Amateur Radio Callsign - KB0NES EN34jt
C8-SP XT-10 C102 80WV
MNAA - Minnesota Amateur Astronomers


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb  4 21:09:02 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Feb  4 21:09:02 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <200302050206.h1526HW11263@hades.usol.com>

Phil, 	
	
1. I am totally blind. I know how to listen far better than a sighted person. I
hear what you ignore. Vision accounts for 92% of what sighted people learn and
sense. It overrides the input of the other senses. If you remove the visual
input, it is quite surprising what one suddenly becomes aware of. It was there
all along, but your dependence on vision caused it to be ignored, or filtered
out.	
	
Ever be in a room, knowing you were alone, and suddenly 'sense' the presence of
somebody watching you? You did not see them. You did not hear them. How did you
know?	
	
Really quite simple. The human ear can detect a very tiny change in air
pressure. With your vision disabled, in this case looking forward and the source
is behind you, the vision was not able to override the data from the ears being
fed to the brain. Thus your brain became aware of the tiny change in air
pressure the presence of another person caused. When you turned to look, sure
enough, somebody was standing there observing you.	
	
This works for detecting objects, when the area is quiet. Of course, the object
must be reasonable large so as to effect a change in air movement. 	
	
I have done audio recording for forty years. I have trained myself to listen.
While it is true people hear or see what they expect to hear or see, I use an
empirical approach to eliminate such psychological bias. 	
	
I fed the B&W 630 with 100 watts continuous RMS and used a DAT as the source. I
listened to a specific selection I was familiar with. Then I changed to bi-wired
and listened again. I did this several times to be sure of what I heard. I tried
it with different speakers, to see if there was a difference there also. There
was, but it did vary among manufacturers and models of the same manufacturer. 		
	
I will do some in depth research into what the thinking behind bi-wiring is and
report back to the list. It should prove to be interesting one way or the other.
	
	
Duane W8DBF	
 
	

 

----------
From: Phil Lefever <plefever@isd.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Date: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:32 PM


>The bi-wiring does make an audible difference on the high end. By running the
>power from the amplifier in parallel to the top tweeter only and the 
>bottom mid
>range and woofer speakers, more power gets to the tweeter.

Color me skeptical I guess. Provided you are using reasonably low resistance
wires adding a set in parallel will make an EXTREMELY small difference in
power transfer, well below human audibility.

If we analyze the circuit assuming a speaker impedance of 6 ohms and a total
cable resistance of .4 ohms we would normally see a loss of only 6.25% at
the speaker. If we run another identical cable in parallel now the loss
drops to 3.2% an improvement of 3% or about .1db. While I will never tell
anyone they can't hear something, I seriously doubt that humans can detect
a small change like this statistically in a double blind test.

A change in power transfer is therefore a very unlikely player in any
advantage of bi-wiring. There could be a number of other possibilities
such as capacitance and inductance etc as an AC signal is much more complex
then simple DC. I still doubt these things as audio frequencies are very
low in the spectrum. I am still very open for more discussion on this
though!

>I have listened to several system wired both ways and I can tell the
>difference.

Did in any of these comparisons you ever not know the system was bi-wired?
Again not saying it makes no difference to you audibly but as humans we
often perceive a difference just because we are expecting one. Of course
even if it is a psychological difference it is still valid as the listening
experience is psychoacoustical and we can never separate our mind from the
mix. If waxing an amplifier makes it sound better buy a big can of wax and
enjoy your music! Even if the difference can't be measured it is still a valid
difference to the guy with the wax ;)

>Now I am a serious listener Phil and I hear what many others gloss
>over.

I consider myself to have excellent hearing as well. I play Cello and Guitar
and I can still hear the 15KHz flyback transformers in TVs. I laugh at people
that tell me I can hear something (how can they know they don't have my ears!).
My issue is my training in electronics and recording technology that tells me
differently. What we perceive can be altered easily.

Good discussion in any case!

73 and enjoy the Scott/Paradigm combo bi-wired or not!

Phil


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lefever - Burnsville, MN
Amateur Radio Callsign - KB0NES EN34jt
C8-SP XT-10 C102 80WV
MNAA - Minnesota Amateur Astronomers

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb  4 22:52:04 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert  J.  McKee)
Date: Tue Feb  4 22:52:04 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
References: <200302050206.h1526HW11263@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <002001c2ccca$2059a080$9a1cf7a5@b5z1q8>

And Duane, back in my days of intense listening for
equipment and design evaluations I found that the
conclusion was not always correct until one could
repeat a comparison another day and reach the very
same conclusion.  We are talking very, very subtle
differences in performance with live unamplified
music as a standard of comparison.

When a person really learns how to listen it may
come as a shock that certain details were previously
ignored.  One questions onseself... how could I have
missed that before?

A day without music is.....  pretty empty.
Bob McKee


----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm
Monitor 9!


> Phil,
>
> 1. I am totally blind. I know how to listen far better than
a sighted person. I
> hear what you ignore. Vision accounts for 92% of what
sighted people learn and
> sense. It overrides the input of the other senses. If you
remove the visual
> input, it is quite surprising what one suddenly becomes
aware of. It was there
> all along, but your dependence on vision caused it to be
ignored, or filtered
> out.
>
> Ever be in a room, knowing you were alone, and suddenly
'sense' the presence of
> somebody watching you? You did not see them. You did not
hear them. How did you
> know?
>
> Really quite simple. The human ear can detect a very tiny
change in air
> pressure. With your vision disabled, in this case looking
forward and the source
> is behind you, the vision was not able to override the data
from the ears being
> fed to the brain. Thus your brain became aware of the tiny
change in air
> pressure the presence of another person caused. When you
turned to look, sure
> enough, somebody was standing there observing you.
>
> This works for detecting objects, when the area is quiet. Of
course, the object
> must be reasonable large so as to effect a change in air
movement.
>
> I have done audio recording for forty years. I have trained
myself to listen.
> While it is true people hear or see what they expect to hear
or see, I use an
> empirical approach to eliminate such psychological bias.
>
> I fed the B&W 630 with 100 watts continuous RMS and used a
DAT as the source. I
> listened to a specific selection I was familiar with. Then I
changed to bi-wired
> and listened again. I did this several times to be sure of
what I heard. I tried
> it with different speakers, to see if there was a difference
there also. There
> was, but it did vary among manufacturers and models of the
same manufacturer.
>
> I will do some in depth research into what the thinking
behind bi-wiring is and
> report back to the list. It should prove to be interesting
one way or the other.
>
>
> Duane W8DBF
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: Phil Lefever <plefever@isd.net>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm
Monitor 9!
> Date: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:32 PM
>
>
> >The bi-wiring does make an audible difference on the high
end. By running the
> >power from the amplifier in parallel to the top tweeter
only and the
> >bottom mid
> >range and woofer speakers, more power gets to the tweeter.
>
> Color me skeptical I guess. Provided you are using
reasonably low resistance
> wires adding a set in parallel will make an EXTREMELY small
difference in
> power transfer, well below human audibility.
>
> If we analyze the circuit assuming a speaker impedance of 6
ohms and a total
> cable resistance of .4 ohms we would normally see a loss of
only 6.25% at
> the speaker. If we run another identical cable in parallel
now the loss
> drops to 3.2% an improvement of 3% or about .1db. While I
will never tell
> anyone they can't hear something, I seriously doubt that
humans can detect
> a small change like this statistically in a double blind
test.
>
> A change in power transfer is therefore a very unlikely
player in any
> advantage of bi-wiring. There could be a number of other
possibilities
> such as capacitance and inductance etc as an AC signal is
much more complex
> then simple DC. I still doubt these things as audio
frequencies are very
> low in the spectrum. I am still very open for more
discussion on this
> though!
>
> >I have listened to several system wired both ways and I can
tell the
> >difference.
>
> Did in any of these comparisons you ever not know the system
was bi-wired?
> Again not saying it makes no difference to you audibly but
as humans we
> often perceive a difference just because we are expecting
one. Of course
> even if it is a psychological difference it is still valid
as the listening
> experience is psychoacoustical and we can never separate our
mind from the
> mix. If waxing an amplifier makes it sound better buy a big
can of wax and
> enjoy your music! Even if the difference can't be measured
it is still a valid
> difference to the guy with the wax ;)
>
> >Now I am a serious listener Phil and I hear what many
others gloss
> >over.
>
> I consider myself to have excellent hearing as well. I play
Cello and Guitar
> and I can still hear the 15KHz flyback transformers in TVs.
I laugh at people
> that tell me I can hear something (how can they know they
don't have my ears!).
> My issue is my training in electronics and recording
technology that tells me
> differently. What we perceive can be altered easily.
>
> Good discussion in any case!
>
> 73 and enjoy the Scott/Paradigm combo bi-wired or not!
>
> Phil
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> Phil Lefever - Burnsville, MN
> Amateur Radio Callsign - KB0NES EN34jt
> C8-SP XT-10 C102 80WV
> MNAA - Minnesota Amateur Astronomers
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb  4 23:25:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Feb  4 23:25:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <200302050422.h154MOW21011@hades.usol.com>

Bob, 	
	
How right you are. I have especially noticed this while 'watching' a movie with
sighted family or friends. It is incredible how much they do not hear. On the
other hand, I miss subtle details that are only visual and I can not anticipate
via the music or context of what is said. 	
	
For the record: I was sighted until the eve of my eighteenth birthday. I was
blinded by a stranger who shot me instead of a Pheasant. So all of my world is
visual, even though I was shot in October 1964. I still visualize all that my
other senses perceive.  	
	
I always test a premise more than once. Ones own level of alertness at a given
moment can make a considerable difference. 	
	
Duane W8DBF	


----------
From: Robert  J.  McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Date: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:53 PM

And Duane, back in my days of intense listening for
equipment and design evaluations I found that the
conclusion was not always correct until one could
repeat a comparison another day and reach the very
same conclusion.  We are talking very, very subtle
differences in performance with live unamplified
music as a standard of comparison.

When a person really learns how to listen it may
come as a shock that certain details were previously
ignored.  One questions onseself... how could I have
missed that before?

A day without music is.....  pretty empty.
Bob McKee


----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm
Monitor 9!


> Phil,
>
> 1. I am totally blind. I know how to listen far better than
a sighted person. I
> hear what you ignore. Vision accounts for 92% of what
sighted people learn and
> sense. It overrides the input of the other senses. If you
remove the visual
> input, it is quite surprising what one suddenly becomes
aware of. It was there
> all along, but your dependence on vision caused it to be
ignored, or filtered
> out.
>
> Ever be in a room, knowing you were alone, and suddenly
'sense' the presence of
> somebody watching you? You did not see them. You did not
hear them. How did you
> know?
>
> Really quite simple. The human ear can detect a very tiny
change in air
> pressure. With your vision disabled, in this case looking
forward and the source
> is behind you, the vision was not able to override the data
from the ears being
> fed to the brain. Thus your brain became aware of the tiny
change in air
> pressure the presence of another person caused. When you
turned to look, sure
> enough, somebody was standing there observing you.
>
> This works for detecting objects, when the area is quiet. Of
course, the object
> must be reasonable large so as to effect a change in air
movement.
>
> I have done audio recording for forty years. I have trained
myself to listen.
> While it is true people hear or see what they expect to hear
or see, I use an
> empirical approach to eliminate such psychological bias.
>
> I fed the B&W 630 with 100 watts continuous RMS and used a
DAT as the source. I
> listened to a specific selection I was familiar with. Then I
changed to bi-wired
> and listened again. I did this several times to be sure of
what I heard. I tried
> it with different speakers, to see if there was a difference
there also. There
> was, but it did vary among manufacturers and models of the
same manufacturer.
>
> I will do some in depth research into what the thinking
behind bi-wiring is and
> report back to the list. It should prove to be interesting
one way or the other.
>
>
> Duane W8DBF
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: Phil Lefever <plefever@isd.net>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm
Monitor 9!
> Date: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:32 PM
>
>
> >The bi-wiring does make an audible difference on the high
end. By running the
> >power from the amplifier in parallel to the top tweeter
only and the
> >bottom mid
> >range and woofer speakers, more power gets to the tweeter.
>
> Color me skeptical I guess. Provided you are using
reasonably low resistance
> wires adding a set in parallel will make an EXTREMELY small
difference in
> power transfer, well below human audibility.
>
> If we analyze the circuit assuming a speaker impedance of 6
ohms and a total
> cable resistance of .4 ohms we would normally see a loss of
only 6.25% at
> the speaker. If we run another identical cable in parallel
now the loss
> drops to 3.2% an improvement of 3% or about .1db. While I
will never tell
> anyone they can't hear something, I seriously doubt that
humans can detect
> a small change like this statistically in a double blind
test.
>
> A change in power transfer is therefore a very unlikely
player in any
> advantage of bi-wiring. There could be a number of other
possibilities
> such as capacitance and inductance etc as an AC signal is
much more complex
> then simple DC. I still doubt these things as audio
frequencies are very
> low in the spectrum. I am still very open for more
discussion on this
> though!
>
> >I have listened to several system wired both ways and I can
tell the
> >difference.
>
> Did in any of these comparisons you ever not know the system
was bi-wired?
> Again not saying it makes no difference to you audibly but
as humans we
> often perceive a difference just because we are expecting
one. Of course
> even if it is a psychological difference it is still valid
as the listening
> experience is psychoacoustical and we can never separate our
mind from the
> mix. If waxing an amplifier makes it sound better buy a big
can of wax and
> enjoy your music! Even if the difference can't be measured
it is still a valid
> difference to the guy with the wax ;)
>
> >Now I am a serious listener Phil and I hear what many
others gloss
> >over.
>
> I consider myself to have excellent hearing as well. I play
Cello and Guitar
> and I can still hear the 15KHz flyback transformers in TVs.
I laugh at people
> that tell me I can hear something (how can they know they
don't have my ears!).
> My issue is my training in electronics and recording
technology that tells me
> differently. What we perceive can be altered easily.
>
> Good discussion in any case!
>
> 73 and enjoy the Scott/Paradigm combo bi-wired or not!
>
> Phil
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> Phil Lefever - Burnsville, MN
> Amateur Radio Callsign - KB0NES EN34jt
> C8-SP XT-10 C102 80WV
> MNAA - Minnesota Amateur Astronomers
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Wed Feb  5 10:28:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Salmons, Michael)
Date: Wed Feb  5 10:28:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <6CA38FBFD10A5B48B1F26ADA36C841496F8172@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu>


-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Lefever [mailto:plefever@isd.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:21 PM
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!

Phil said:

Don't listen to them too long before getting the vintage speakers! You
won't what to listen to the older speakers after you have spent time
with modern high quality speakers like these ;)

I full well expect to be flamed for a comment like this on a vintage =
list
but the one component I dislike are old speakers. Quality modern designs
work very well and the aging components of older speakers aren't getting
any better with time. Of course this is _my opinion_ and others may =
differ!

Phil, Duane, et. al.:

My two cents worth on the subject of modern vs. vintage speakers... it's =
been a rare thing in my experience to find vintage bass comparable to =
today's speakers unless you move into some pretty large units, and even =
then it has to be a very special design (Klipsch Cornwalls, for =
instance, Or Altec Voice of the Theatres) to have the ability to control =
bass with authority rather than just blurt it out. Now, before you set =
me aflame, there are many very nice models I am leaving out. These are =
just a couple I've had the pleasure to audition myself.

However, i must observe the reverse as well: it is rare to find a modern =
speaker that does not deliver the very fine highs and midrange of many =
vintage speakers, at least to my ears, without spending a big, big wad =
of dough. The exceptions to that in my mind would be a few model of =
paradigms (I do not have your discriminating ears, Duane, but I have =
experienced some lovely midrange emanating from the lowly Paradigm =
Titans) and B&Ws like the DM-302. OK, The KEF Cresta 2 has pretty =
repectable midrange, too. But I have experienced the most ecstatic =
midrange by coupling small vintage speakers (my venerated KLH satellites =
with full-range drivers are my current favorite) with modern bi-ampable =
bass experts such as Paradigm. I simply amp the satellites and the bass =
of the paradigms and (the crossover points of the models I have are =
sympathetic enough) get very nice results. smooth, creamy, vibrant, =
alive.

Just another opinion! If I had a lot more money to spend on my hobby my =
results could be very different indeed.

Michael Salmons

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Wed Feb  5 11:06:06 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert  J.  McKee)
Date: Wed Feb  5 11:06:06 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
References: <6CA38FBFD10A5B48B1F26ADA36C841496F8172@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <00a101c2cd30$ad55c980$9a1cf7a5@b5z1q8>

Gotta get my two cents worth in re the area of speaker
systems.

There have been zillions of speaker systems made for
the high fidelity and stereo market since the fifties.  And
if EVERYONE were regularly exposed to live unamplified
music 99% of them would have died in dealer's showrooms.

Back in the forties when large console radios were sold it
was common to want a "rich" sound which meant lots of
bass and only enough highs to be able to understand
speech.  What we had, over time, was a slow evolution
in the mass market that was years behind the concert and
symphony attendees.

The list of speakers I cannot stand to be in the same
building with is huge... and some of those names are
those I hear respected here.  But it makes no matter,
what is important to the owner/listener is that the particular
combination of electronics and speaker systems provides
personal satisfaction... an enjoyment of whatever kind of
music that is enjoyed.

But make no mistake, new speaker systems have come
a long way in the past couple decades.  There are some
speaker system kits available from several sources that
breathe life into the better tapes and LP's.  And they do
it for less than $1K at the expense of the bottom octaves
so much a part of full symphony and organ music.

My personal experience with speaker systems is that
there is some undeniable "air" or "space" enhancement
when high frequency response goes well beyond 20 KHz
even though the human ear cannot hear that high.  Been
years since I was annoyed by the vertical flyback transformers
on television sets whining away at 15,750 Hz, but I still
require that HF extension for aural satisfaction.

Being partial to master analog reel-to-reel tape (made from
a matched pair of microphones in front of ?????) I found
that second-best was the 45 RPM stereo 12" record,
some of which were recorded direct to disc.  The frequency
range, dynamics and transients are all there to provide a
listening experience that is very convincing.

Bob McKee


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Wed Feb  5 14:07:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net)
Date: Wed Feb  5 14:07:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <1e4.133a3f4.2b72ba1a@aol.com>

Gee, Bob,

It's been a long time since I heard this kind of talk. 

Way back when STEREO was in its' infancy, I managed an audio room in 
Anchorage Alaska named EFFCO Electronics.

It was financed by a German Zillionaire who loved good electronically 
produced music. We had one of the first full fledged acoustically designed 
and built sound rooms in the country [if you can consider Alaska at that time 
(before statehood) as part of the country].

We used to import Bozak loudspeakers, in Bozak cabinets and out of them. We 
had an expert German cabinet maker build cabinets bigger and better than 
Bozak. I remember when I had a very large system designed for a custom 
Hammond organ. The Hammond is capable of extraordinary range, but you need 
the harmonic range. You really notice it when you try to record, or, playback 
recordings of the Hammond. Much different from the ordinary electronic organ.

I also worked with Doug Duke, the first jazzman to use a Hammond. He was 
white, but so good that Lionel Hampton featured him with his all black band. 
I built Duke a special modified Hammond, dubbed "The Coffin" by BS Pulley of 
"Guys and Dolls" (Broadway version). Then we had the "Duketron", a Hammond 
with an added piano keyboard and sound board. Wow, what he could do on that.

But I'm digressing from my original topic. I used to listen for 'presence' in 
a sound system. I would imagine that I was listening to a live performance 
with one, two, three, or, for scrims between me and the music. Extraordinary 
sound was NO scrims. Only one system ever came close. A Thorens turntable, 
fitted with a Grado arm and cartridge, feeding a McIntosh C-20 preamp into a 
McIntosh Mc-240 Amp, which delivered that wonderfully clean power to a pair 
of Black Altec Lansing 'Voice of the Theater' loudspeakers. I mention 
'BLACK', because if you bought the speakers finished and covered with grill 
cloth, you lost quite a bit of the presence.

I can't remember the name of them now, but we also had those big, six foot 
high speakers with the thirty (30) inch woofers in them. They could even come 
close. 

Today, everything is geared to the new 'you've gotta feel em' school. My 
first experience with them was in an RCA console with 75 watts of audio. They 
caused the floor to shake, but they were very definitely not "full range".

Well, my memory is dim to day, and so is my hearing, but you have brought 
back some very fond memories of pianos that sounded like pianos, guitars 
where you could hear the fingers sliding on the strings, drums that both 
rumbled with cymbals that tinkled and artists who knew ow to use the dynamics 
of sound. Boy, it was great!

As Bob Hope used to say, "Thanks for the memories"..................

73 de Ron K  --  W1ARS


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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Wed Feb  5 17:08:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Wed Feb  5 17:08:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <200302052204.h15M4pW22408@hades.usol.com>

Michael, 	
	
You are flame free - 	
	
Paradigm in my experience is a middle of the road speaker product. Good, but not
'real' good. More than adequate for the average listener. I am not the average
listener and make greater demands on the system.  Hence, I am also more
particular. 	
	
This particular pair of Paradigm speakers truly impressed me, and that says
something! I went to some high end audio shops and listened to speaker systems
ranging from $8,000 to $15,000 and was NOT impressed. I also listened to the
modern high priced tube amplifiers and was not impressed. The older high quality
integrated stereo amps with 25-50 watts continuous RMS feeding high efficiency
speakers did just as good, if not better. A friend who has the top of the line
modern gear, looked at me and said, "Duane. What you already have at home sounds
just as good as anything here. In fact, yours sounds better than most of it. Are
you going to buy any of this stuff?" I smiled and said, "Nope!" 	
	
There is a difference, Michael, between bass and what I call the 'room shake
effect'. The same as there is a difference between fidelity and noise. The bass
my James B. Lansing Century L-100 speakers using a 12 inch woofer with six pound
permanent magnet generate is clean, true and can rattle the china in the
neighbor's house. I have them mounted at ceiling level and shooting down to ear
level at the opposite end of the room for somebody sitting on the couch. The
room has a 60% Cork ceiling and carpeting. Many systems, and speakers, boost the
bass and what you hear is not really what was put into the recording. People
like to feel the room shake and rumble, so the manufacturers cater to that.
Accurate reporduction is not the issue, selling the product is. 	
	
While I do not argue that the technology has improved in both amplifiers and
speakers, on the whole, the tastes and demands of the consumers have also.
However, in the case of the consumer, I should say that their tastes on the
whole have changed, not necessarily improved. I can not in all honesty say that
a car that rolls by with bass shaking the vehicle and the same few musical
chords being repeated over and over is music or an improvement. In my opinion,
this is just noise. About as appealing to me as a Cow blowing a tuba!    	
	
Personal taste greatly determines what people buy, some of us have musical
appreciation and others of us do not. One size does not fit all here, for
certain. 	
	
DBF	


----------
From: Salmons, Michael <SalmonsM@missouri.edu>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Date: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:24 AM



-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Lefever [mailto:plefever@isd.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:21 PM
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!

Phil said:

Don't listen to them too long before getting the vintage speakers! You
won't what to listen to the older speakers after you have spent time
with modern high quality speakers like these ;)

I full well expect to be flamed for a comment like this on a vintage list
but the one component I dislike are old speakers. Quality modern designs
work very well and the aging components of older speakers aren't getting
any better with time. Of course this is _my opinion_ and others may differ!

Phil, Duane, et. al.:

My two cents worth on the subject of modern vs. vintage speakers... it's been a
rare thing in my experience to find vintage bass comparable to today's speakers
unless you move into some pretty large units, and even then it has to be a very
special design (Klipsch Cornwalls, for instance, Or Altec Voice of the Theatres)
to have the ability to control bass with authority rather than just blurt it
out. Now, before you set me aflame, there are many very nice models I am leaving
out. These are just a couple I've had the pleasure to audition myself.

However, i must observe the reverse as well: it is rare to find a modern speaker
that does not deliver the very fine highs and midrange of many vintage speakers,
at least to my ears, without spending a big, big wad of dough. The exceptions to
that in my mind would be a few model of paradigms (I do not have your
discriminating ears, Duane, but I have experienced some lovely midrange
emanating from the lowly Paradigm Titans) and B&Ws like the DM-302. OK, The KEF
Cresta 2 has pretty repectable midrange, too. But I have experienced the most
ecstatic midrange by coupling small vintage speakers (my venerated KLH
satellites with full-range drivers are my current favorite) with modern
bi-ampable bass experts such as Paradigm. I simply amp the satellites and the
bass of the paradigms and (the crossover points of the models I have are
sympathetic enough) get very nice results. smooth, creamy, vibrant, alive.

Just another opinion! If I had a lot more money to spend on my hobby my results
could be very different indeed.

Michael Salmons
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List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Wed Feb  5 17:25:02 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Wed Feb  5 17:25:02 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <200302052222.h15MMPW23808@hades.usol.com>

Bob, 	
	
Some interesting thoughts. Thanks! 	
	


----------
From: Robert  J.  McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Date: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:07 AM

Gotta get my two cents worth in re the area of speaker
systems.

There have been zillions of speaker systems made for
the high fidelity and stereo market since the fifties.  And
if EVERYONE were regularly exposed to live unamplified
music 99% of them would have died in dealer's showrooms.

Back in the forties when large console radios were sold it
was common to want a "rich" sound which meant lots of
bass and only enough highs to be able to understand
speech.  What we had, over time, was a slow evolution
in the mass market that was years behind the concert and
symphony attendees.

The list of speakers I cannot stand to be in the same
building with is huge... and some of those names are
those I hear respected here.  But it makes no matter,
what is important to the owner/listener is that the particular
combination of electronics and speaker systems provides
personal satisfaction... an enjoyment of whatever kind of
music that is enjoyed.

But make no mistake, new speaker systems have come
a long way in the past couple decades.  There are some
speaker system kits available from several sources that
breathe life into the better tapes and LP's.  And they do
it for less than $1K at the expense of the bottom octaves
so much a part of full symphony and organ music.

My personal experience with speaker systems is that
there is some undeniable "air" or "space" enhancement
when high frequency response goes well beyond 20 KHz
even though the human ear cannot hear that high.  Been
years since I was annoyed by the vertical flyback transformers
on television sets whining away at 15,750 Hz, but I still
require that HF extension for aural satisfaction.

Being partial to master analog reel-to-reel tape (made from
a matched pair of microphones in front of ?????) I found
that second-best was the 45 RPM stereo 12" record,
some of which were recorded direct to disc.  The frequency
range, dynamics and transients are all there to provide a
listening experience that is very convincing.

Bob McKee

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Wed Feb  5 17:25:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Wed Feb  5 17:25:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <200302052222.h15MMRW23814@hades.usol.com>

Ron, 	
	
I hear all of those things you so fondly refered to with the system I have right
here. However, I am using the vinyl recordings too! I just returned from my
cousin's home where we listened to some recordings made in 1908, 1927 and 1948.
The fidelity was incredible back in 1908, other than some noise from the media,
naturally. Much more quiet in 1927 and not much difference in 1948.  Great fun.
Then we played some RCA Nashville tracks with those incredible studio musicians
like Floyd Cramer, Boots Randolph, Chet Atkins, Charlie McCoy and the Anita Kerr
singers behind them. Wow!	
	
DBF	


----------
From: BrRonK777@aol.com
To: mckee137@mindspring.com; vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Date: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:03 PM

Gee, Bob,

It's been a long time since I heard this kind of talk. 

Way back when STEREO was in its' infancy, I managed an audio room in 
Anchorage Alaska named EFFCO Electronics.

It was financed by a German Zillionaire who loved good electronically 
produced music. We had one of the first full fledged acoustically designed 
and built sound rooms in the country [if you can consider Alaska at that time 
(before statehood) as part of the country].

We used to import Bozak loudspeakers, in Bozak cabinets and out of them. We 
had an expert German cabinet maker build cabinets bigger and better than 
Bozak. I remember when I had a very large system designed for a custom 
Hammond organ. The Hammond is capable of extraordinary range, but you need 
the harmonic range. You really notice it when you try to record, or, playback 
recordings of the Hammond. Much different from the ordinary electronic organ.

I also worked with Doug Duke, the first jazzman to use a Hammond. He was 
white, but so good that Lionel Hampton featured him with his all black band. 
I built Duke a special modified Hammond, dubbed "The Coffin" by BS Pulley of 
"Guys and Dolls" (Broadway version). Then we had the "Duketron", a Hammond 
with an added piano keyboard and sound board. Wow, what he could do on that.

But I'm digressing from my original topic. I used to listen for 'presence' in 
a sound system. I would imagine that I was listening to a live performance 
with one, two, three, or, for scrims between me and the music. Extraordinary 
sound was NO scrims. Only one system ever came close. A Thorens turntable, 
fitted with a Grado arm and cartridge, feeding a McIntosh C-20 preamp into a 
McIntosh Mc-240 Amp, which delivered that wonderfully clean power to a pair 
of Black Altec Lansing 'Voice of the Theater' loudspeakers. I mention 
'BLACK', because if you bought the speakers finished and covered with grill 
cloth, you lost quite a bit of the presence.

I can't remember the name of them now, but we also had those big, six foot 
high speakers with the thirty (30) inch woofers in them. They could even come 
close. 

Today, everything is geared to the new 'you've gotta feel em' school. My 
first experience with them was in an RCA console with 75 watts of audio. They 
caused the floor to shake, but they were very definitely not "full range".

Well, my memory is dim to day, and so is my hearing, but you have brought 
back some very fond memories of pianos that sounded like pianos, guitars 
where you could hear the fingers sliding on the strings, drums that both 
rumbled with cymbals that tinkled and artists who knew ow to use the dynamics 
of sound. Boy, it was great!

As Bob Hope used to say, "Thanks for the memories"..................

73 de Ron K  --  W1ARS


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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Fri Feb  7 11:05:59 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Salmons, Michael)
Date: Fri Feb  7 11:05:59 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] wanted: tuner
Message-ID: <6CA38FBFD10A5B48B1F26ADA36C841490268465E@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu>

Folks,

If someone has a Sony ST-80, 80f, 80w, or 88 (they are all am/fm tuners =
with the vertical form factor that sony briefly used in the early 70s), =
and they would sell it for a reasonable sum, please let me know. I have =
a small space left on my shelf that one of these would fit into nicely.

Thanks,

Michael Salmons

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Fri Feb  7 12:49:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net)
Date: Fri Feb  7 12:49:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <1d8.1ee5eb5.2b754aa2@aol.com>

And a DOUBLE WOW!

Hi Duane. Just wondering what you are using for speakers?
I need to replace some old Bozak book shelf speakers. 

Perhaps you can give me a couple of suggestions?


Many thanks es 73 de 
 
Ron K  --  W1ARS


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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Fri Feb  7 14:03:02 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Fri Feb  7 14:03:02 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Message-ID: <200302071859.h17Ix4W28852@hades.usol.com>

Hi Ron, 	
	
Primary system:	
	
James B. Lansing Century L-100 (1974) ceiling mounted and directed at the other
end of the room to hit about ear level when sitting on the eight foot couch with
built-in recliners.	
	
B&W model 630 flanking the six foot master console positioned between the James
B. Lansings up above. They are phased in with the JBL's or used as monitors when
I am doing recording work.  	
	
Paradigm 9s: my home brew surround sound system front speakers, although I use
them left and right to crossfire the room.		
	
Klipsch KB1: center channel for the surround sound system   
	
JBL: small 2-way on the floor five feet apart opposite the Pioneer 50 inch TV
for the surround system special effects. These are modern JBL, not the old
really good stuff!   	
	
Paradigm Monitor 9: used with the H.H. Scott LK-72b amplifier, LT-110 FM stereo
multiplex tuner, Dual 710 turntable, Revox B77 reel to reel deck with Teac
AN-180 outboard equalization/Dolby unit and modern Sony CD player and Denon 1500
CDRW deck.	
	
Still trying to find a pair of good vintage speakers to run with the H.H. Scott
system - 	
	
Duane W8DBF	


----------
From: BrRonK777@aol.com
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H.H. Scott Rocks With Paradigm Monitor 9!
Date: Friday, February 07, 2003 12:45 PM

And a DOUBLE WOW!

Hi Duane. Just wondering what you are using for speakers?
I need to replace some old Bozak book shelf speakers. 

Perhaps you can give me a couple of suggestions?


Many thanks es 73 de 
 
Ron K  --  W1ARS


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From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sat Feb  8 18:27:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Sat Feb  8 18:27:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
Message-ID: <200302082323.h18NNBW31671@hades.usol.com>

	
The H. Scott LK-72b integrated stereo amplifier has provisions for a center
channel output. Can someone please tell me about it? 	
	
I am presuming it is a mix of the left and right channels? 	
	
I am also presuming that to utilize this center channel requires a power amp?	
	
What controls the center channel: the primary amplifier or the power amplifier? 

	
A rather innovative concept for 1963.  	
	
Thanks.  	
	
Duane Fischer, W8DBF	
dfischer@usol.com   	


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sat Feb  8 19:14:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert  J.  McKee)
Date: Sat Feb  8 19:14:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
References: <200302082323.h18NNBW31671@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c2cfd0$4af7dba0$721bf7a5@b5z1q8>

Provision for... or is there an RCA jack... or is there
a speaker terminal strip?  I think that would be a first
clue.  If an RCA jack it would seem to be probably
an A+B output.  If a speaker terminal strip it might be
similar to the Dynaco arrangement, the details of which
I do not recall for sure but I believe it connected a
center speaker from the 4 ohm tap of one channel
to the 4 ohm tap of the other resulting in A-B or L-R
signal.
That's going back a l o n g ways.
Bob


----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel


>
>
> The H. Scott LK-72b integrated stereo amplifier has
provisions for a center
> channel output. Can someone please tell me about it?
>
> I am presuming it is a mix of the left and right channels?
>
> I am also presuming that to utilize this center channel
requires a power amp?
>
> What controls the center channel: the primary amplifier or
the power amplifier?
>
>
> A rather innovative concept for 1963.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> dfischer@usol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sat Feb  8 19:38:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (JM/CO)
Date: Sat Feb  8 19:38:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
References: <200302082323.h18NNBW31671@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <008101c2cfd3$679ebaa0$485cd63f@net>

This was not an un-common feature on amps of this vintage. The output is
summed from both channels, and is at "speaker level". It is not generally
possible to do this trick with solid state, hence the disappearance of this
feature from the industry.
Just connect a suitable speaker, and enjoy. Three channel systems are great,
especially when using rather small speakers in a large room where they are
spread apart. The third speaker eliminates the "hole in the middle" effect
of such a rig. You may want to place an attenuater in line, in order to
compensate for the relative efficiency differences of the speakers. The best
set-up of this type was used by McIntosh and others who made separate pre
and power amps. The three channels came out of the preamp at line level, and
each could be run through an appropriate power amp to it's respective
speaker. This system enabled the independent setting of main and center
channel levels.
Chuck N1LNH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel


>
>
> The H. Scott LK-72b integrated stereo amplifier has provisions for a
center
> channel output. Can someone please tell me about it?
>
> I am presuming it is a mix of the left and right channels?
>
> I am also presuming that to utilize this center channel requires a power
amp?
>
> What controls the center channel: the primary amplifier or the power
amplifier?
>
>
> A rather innovative concept for 1963.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> dfischer@usol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sat Feb  8 19:56:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Sat Feb  8 19:56:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
Message-ID: <200302090052.h190qjW04550@hades.usol.com>

There is a single RCA jack.	


----------
From: Robert  J.  McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
Date: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:15 PM

Provision for... or is there an RCA jack... or is there
a speaker terminal strip?  I think that would be a first
clue.  If an RCA jack it would seem to be probably
an A+B output.  If a speaker terminal strip it might be
similar to the Dynaco arrangement, the details of which
I do not recall for sure but I believe it connected a
center speaker from the 4 ohm tap of one channel
to the 4 ohm tap of the other resulting in A-B or L-R
signal.
That's going back a l o n g ways.
Bob


----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel


>
>
> The H. Scott LK-72b integrated stereo amplifier has
provisions for a center
> channel output. Can someone please tell me about it?
>
> I am presuming it is a mix of the left and right channels?
>
> I am also presuming that to utilize this center channel
requires a power amp?
>
> What controls the center channel: the primary amplifier or
the power amplifier?
>
>
> A rather innovative concept for 1963.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> dfischer@usol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sat Feb  8 20:06:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Sat Feb  8 20:06:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
Message-ID: <200302090103.h19131W05265@hades.usol.com>

Chuck, 	
	
This uses a single RCA jack. Why does it not use a two screw terminal strip as
the speakers do? If it connects directly to a speaker, using a RCA jack seems
odd.  What was the rational behind it?  	
	
Thanks. 	
	
Duane W8DBF	
dfischer@usol.com  	
   

----------
From: JM/CO <jmerritt2@capecod.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
Date: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:37 PM

This was not an un-common feature on amps of this vintage. The output is
summed from both channels, and is at "speaker level". It is not generally
possible to do this trick with solid state, hence the disappearance of this
feature from the industry.
Just connect a suitable speaker, and enjoy. Three channel systems are great,
especially when using rather small speakers in a large room where they are
spread apart. The third speaker eliminates the "hole in the middle" effect
of such a rig. You may want to place an attenuater in line, in order to
compensate for the relative efficiency differences of the speakers. The best
set-up of this type was used by McIntosh and others who made separate pre
and power amps. The three channels came out of the preamp at line level, and
each could be run through an appropriate power amp to it's respective
speaker. This system enabled the independent setting of main and center
channel levels.
Chuck N1LNH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel


>
>
> The H. Scott LK-72b integrated stereo amplifier has provisions for a
center
> channel output. Can someone please tell me about it?
>
> I am presuming it is a mix of the left and right channels?
>
> I am also presuming that to utilize this center channel requires a power
amp?
>
> What controls the center channel: the primary amplifier or the power
amplifier?
>
>
> A rather innovative concept for 1963.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> dfischer@usol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sat Feb  8 20:11:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert  J.  McKee)
Date: Sat Feb  8 20:11:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
References: <200302090052.h190qjW04550@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <010501c2cfd8$4f3a46a0$721bf7a5@b5z1q8>

Looks like it requires another amp for the center speaker
system then.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel


> There is a single RCA jack.
>
>
> ----------
> From: Robert  J.  McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:15 PM
>
> Provision for... or is there an RCA jack... or is there
> a speaker terminal strip?  I think that would be a first
> clue.  If an RCA jack it would seem to be probably
> an A+B output.  If a speaker terminal strip it might be
> similar to the Dynaco arrangement, the details of which
> I do not recall for sure but I believe it connected a
> center speaker from the 4 ohm tap of one channel
> to the 4 ohm tap of the other resulting in A-B or L-R
> signal.
> That's going back a l o n g ways.
> Bob
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:18 PM
> Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
>
>
> >
> >
> > The H. Scott LK-72b integrated stereo amplifier has
> provisions for a center
> > channel output. Can someone please tell me about it?
> >
> > I am presuming it is a mix of the left and right channels?
> >
> > I am also presuming that to utilize this center channel
> requires a power amp?
> >
> > What controls the center channel: the primary amplifier or
> the power amplifier?
> >
> >
> > A rather innovative concept for 1963.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > dfischer@usol.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home:
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Sat Feb  8 20:21:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Sat Feb  8 20:21:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
Message-ID: <200302090118.h191I8W06143@hades.usol.com>

Given that, I deduce that the second amplifier is controlled independant of the
primary amp, including volume and tone settings. Interesting. Now all I need is
a second vintage amp! Any donors out there?	
	
Duane W8DBF	


----------
From: Robert  J.  McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
Date: Saturday, February 08, 2003 8:12 PM

Looks like it requires another amp for the center speaker
system then.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel


> There is a single RCA jack.
>
>
> ----------
> From: Robert  J.  McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:15 PM
>
> Provision for... or is there an RCA jack... or is there
> a speaker terminal strip?  I think that would be a first
> clue.  If an RCA jack it would seem to be probably
> an A+B output.  If a speaker terminal strip it might be
> similar to the Dynaco arrangement, the details of which
> I do not recall for sure but I believe it connected a
> center speaker from the 4 ohm tap of one channel
> to the 4 ohm tap of the other resulting in A-B or L-R
> signal.
> That's going back a l o n g ways.
> Bob
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:18 PM
> Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
>
>
> >
> >
> > The H. Scott LK-72b integrated stereo amplifier has
> provisions for a center
> > channel output. Can someone please tell me about it?
> >
> > I am presuming it is a mix of the left and right channels?
> >
> > I am also presuming that to utilize this center channel
> requires a power amp?
> >
> > What controls the center channel: the primary amplifier or
> the power amplifier?
> >
> >
> > A rather innovative concept for 1963.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > dfischer@usol.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home:
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Feb 10 17:04:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (JM/CO)
Date: Mon Feb 10 17:04:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
References: <200302082323.h18NNBW31671@hades.usol.com> <008101c2cfd3$679ebaa0$485cd63f@net>
Message-ID: <002f01c2d150$4b1bd7e0$3a6dd63f@net>

OK- Memory fails again.
I just took a look at some schematics for H. H. Scott amps of this vintage.
I don't have one for the LK-72-B, so I cannot give an exact reply here. I
have, however enough other schematics of similar vintage Scott units to
postulate a reasonable explanation.
Your set is the kit version of the 299-D, which uses 7591 finals. The 299-D
schematic clearly shows two screw terminals which are intended for direct
connection to a speaker. But---
You have stated that your rig has only an RCA jack. Obviously further
research required here.
The schematic for the LK-48 ( a kit version of the 222-B/C ) has no center
channel provision. Nothing to be learned here.
The schematic for the LK-48 / 200-B does have a center channel output, and
( guess what ? ) It's an RCA jack !!
A brief study of the schematic clearly shows that the signal available at
this jack is sampled from the secondary of the output transformers, but is
run through an attenuater / summing circuit which converts it to high
impedance / line level. It obvious that this is intended to be run through a
separate power amplifier.
One could run this through ANY power amp, but as the output present at this
jack is from the final end of the LK-72-B, it is subject to all actions of
all controls. I would think that the best solution here would be to run this
into a single channel power amp with ONLY an input level control.
An H.H. Scott 208 mono power amp would be a perfect match, as it uses
basically the same circuit as the 299-D / LK-72 . A 240 would be fine too,
but a bit of overkill with it's EL-34 finals. Even a smaller ( than 7591 )
amp would be fine, as the ctr. channel speaker is generally run at a lower
SPL than the main speakers.
Chuck N1LNH
----- Original Message -----
From: "JM/CO" <jmerritt2@capecod.net>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel


> This was not an un-common feature on amps of this vintage. The output is
> summed from both channels, and is at "speaker level". It is not generally
> possible to do this trick with solid state, hence the disappearance of
this
> feature from the industry.
> Just connect a suitable speaker, and enjoy. Three channel systems are
great,
> especially when using rather small speakers in a large room where they are
> spread apart. The third speaker eliminates the "hole in the middle" effect
> of such a rig. You may want to place an attenuater in line, in order to
> compensate for the relative efficiency differences of the speakers. The
best
> set-up of this type was used by McIntosh and others who made separate pre
> and power amps. The three channels came out of the preamp at line level,
and
> each could be run through an appropriate power amp to it's respective
> speaker. This system enabled the independent setting of main and center
> channel levels.
> Chuck N1LNH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:18 PM
> Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
>
>
> >
> >
> > The H. Scott LK-72b integrated stereo amplifier has provisions for a
> center
> > channel output. Can someone please tell me about it?
> >
> > I am presuming it is a mix of the left and right channels?
> >
> > I am also presuming that to utilize this center channel requires a power
> amp?
> >
> > What controls the center channel: the primary amplifier or the power
> amplifier?
> >
> >
> > A rather innovative concept for 1963.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > dfischer@usol.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Feb 10 23:24:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Feb 10 23:24:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
Message-ID: <200302110421.h1B4L8W26617@hades.usol.com>

Chuck, 	
	
Thank you for some excellent information. 	
	
I do have a mono tube amp on the top shelf. I have not used it in two years. I
think it is a home brew cross between a mono sound system and a PA system
design. It has a pair of 6V6 in push/pull, line inputs and mike inputs. I do not
recall if only the mike inputs have level controls or not. Gong to have to lift
it down and check her out tomorrow. 	
	
Seems like the output should be adequate to drive an 8 ohm two-way cabinet with
eight inch and Aluminum dome tweeter. Any thoughts?	
	
More after I climb up. lift it down and check it out.   	
	
Duane W8DBF	


----------
From: JM/CO <jmerritt2@capecod.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
Date: Monday, February 10, 2003 5:03 PM

OK- Memory fails again.
I just took a look at some schematics for H. H. Scott amps of this vintage.
I don't have one for the LK-72-B, so I cannot give an exact reply here. I
have, however enough other schematics of similar vintage Scott units to
postulate a reasonable explanation.
Your set is the kit version of the 299-D, which uses 7591 finals. The 299-D
schematic clearly shows two screw terminals which are intended for direct
connection to a speaker. But---
You have stated that your rig has only an RCA jack. Obviously further
research required here.
The schematic for the LK-48 ( a kit version of the 222-B/C ) has no center
channel provision. Nothing to be learned here.
The schematic for the LK-48 / 200-B does have a center channel output, and
( guess what ? ) It's an RCA jack !!
A brief study of the schematic clearly shows that the signal available at
this jack is sampled from the secondary of the output transformers, but is
run through an attenuater / summing circuit which converts it to high
impedance / line level. It obvious that this is intended to be run through a
separate power amplifier.
One could run this through ANY power amp, but as the output present at this
jack is from the final end of the LK-72-B, it is subject to all actions of
all controls. I would think that the best solution here would be to run this
into a single channel power amp with ONLY an input level control.
An H.H. Scott 208 mono power amp would be a perfect match, as it uses
basically the same circuit as the 299-D / LK-72 . A 240 would be fine too,
but a bit of overkill with it's EL-34 finals. Even a smaller ( than 7591 )
amp would be fine, as the ctr. channel speaker is generally run at a lower
SPL than the main speakers.
Chuck N1LNH
----- Original Message -----
From: "JM/CO" <jmerritt2@capecod.net>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel


> This was not an un-common feature on amps of this vintage. The output is
> summed from both channels, and is at "speaker level". It is not generally
> possible to do this trick with solid state, hence the disappearance of
this
> feature from the industry.
> Just connect a suitable speaker, and enjoy. Three channel systems are
great,
> especially when using rather small speakers in a large room where they are
> spread apart. The third speaker eliminates the "hole in the middle" effect
> of such a rig. You may want to place an attenuater in line, in order to
> compensate for the relative efficiency differences of the speakers. The
best
> set-up of this type was used by McIntosh and others who made separate pre
> and power amps. The three channels came out of the preamp at line level,
and
> each could be run through an appropriate power amp to it's respective
> speaker. This system enabled the independent setting of main and center
> channel levels.
> Chuck N1LNH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:18 PM
> Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
>
>
> >
> >
> > The H. Scott LK-72b integrated stereo amplifier has provisions for a
> center
> > channel output. Can someone please tell me about it?
> >
> > I am presuming it is a mix of the left and right channels?
> >
> > I am also presuming that to utilize this center channel requires a power
> amp?
> >
> > What controls the center channel: the primary amplifier or the power
> amplifier?
> >
> >
> > A rather innovative concept for 1963.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > dfischer@usol.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Mon Feb 10 23:54:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Mon Feb 10 23:54:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
Message-ID: <200302110451.h1B4pBW28441@hades.usol.com>

	
The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit. It has
always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit is
used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for them by
Bose. 	

	Right or wrong? 	
	
What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ and
without the EQ?	
	
Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how much? 	
	
Thanks. 		
	
Duane Fischer, W8DBF	
 

	 		
  

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 00:01:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Tue Feb 11 00:01:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
References: <200302110451.h1B4pBW28441@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <3E48838D.6020501@csnsys.com>

Bose not only don't sound good without the equalizer, they sound 
terrible. Even with the equalizer they are very poor compared to most 
anything else..even your JBL 100s.

WBob

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> 	
> The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit. It has
> always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit is
> used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
> intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for them by
> Bose. 	
> 
> 	Right or wrong? 	
> 	
> What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ and
> without the EQ?	
> 	
> Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how much? 	
> 	
> Thanks. 		
> 	
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF	
>  
> 
> 	 		
>   
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> 
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 01:48:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (shadow)
Date: Tue Feb 11 01:48:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
References: <200302110451.h1B4pBW28441@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <3E489BC4.4E3F5989@gilroy.com>

Duane....

I have sold a few 901 EQ on epay over the last few years...
They sold for
$ 90 - $ 100      Early model
$ 110 - $ 110     Late model

Gary

"Duane Fischer, W8DBF" wrote:

>
> The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit. It has
> always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit is
> used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
> intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for them by
> Bose.
>
>         Right or wrong?
>
> What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ and
> without the EQ?
>
> Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how much?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

--
A gun in the hand, is better then a cop on the phone.



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 02:01:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (JM/CO)
Date: Tue Feb 11 02:01:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
References: <200302110451.h1B4pBW28441@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <005701c2d19b$2ef5ec40$557fd63f@net>

The Bose 901's were crap in their day, and have not improved with age! Power
hungry, and,  because of the extreme EQ required, heavy in harmonic and IM
distortion. It IS possible to use these with a generic EQ, but this would be
very tricky due to the problem of having to determine, and mimic, the
original EQ curves. Best relegated to firewood.
Chuck N1LNH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 11:46 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ


>
>
> The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit.
It has
> always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit
is
> used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
> intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for
them by
> Bose.
>
> Right or wrong?
>
> What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ
and
> without the EQ?
>
> Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how much?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 03:14:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Phil Lefever)
Date: Tue Feb 11 03:14:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
In-Reply-To: <200302110451.h1B4pBW28441@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030211015636.00b3e3a0@mail.cpinternet.com>

At 23:46 02/10/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>
>The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit.=
=20
>It has
>always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit=
 is
>used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
>intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for them=
 by
>Bose.
>
>         Right or wrong?

Only Dr Bose believes you can get full range sound from a 4" cone.....
In a vain attempt at this they must be EQ'ed to death trying to get
close to a flat spectral response. This places HUGE demands on the
amplifier at the extremes of the response range where it does the most
harm.

Add to it that these speakers are very room specific. They sound OK
is some rooms and like crap in others. For this reason I have never
really liked bipolar speakers...

>What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ=
 and
>without the EQ?

If you have the factory stands they would be good for holding potted
plants off the floor ;)

With the EQ (and a decent amp with LOTS of headroom) they may be nice
for a cool vintage sound if you and your room like them.

Personally I don't like anything I have ever heard from the company, but
we all know that tastes vary.

73

Phil

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lefever	KB=D8NES				Twin Cities Repeater Club
kb0nes@tcrc.org					Burnsville,MN


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 08:30:59 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Feb 11 08:30:59 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
Message-ID: <200302111327.h1BDRfW23089@hades.usol.com>

Chuck, 	
	
Yep, I drew the same conclusions over the years. Although I only heard one pair
and that was twenty years ago. Most I heard from had little good to say about
them. Certainly not up to the standards of the commercial line. I used the Bose
401 and 802 on stage and they were spectactular.	
	
DBF	


----------
From: JM/CO <jmerritt2@capecod.net>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 1:59 AM

The Bose 901's were crap in their day, and have not improved with age! Power
hungry, and,  because of the extreme EQ required, heavy in harmonic and IM
distortion. It IS possible to use these with a generic EQ, but this would be
very tricky due to the problem of having to determine, and mimic, the
original EQ curves. Best relegated to firewood.
Chuck N1LNH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 11:46 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ


>
>
> The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit.
It has
> always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit
is
> used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
> intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for
them by
> Bose.
>
> Right or wrong?
>
> What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ
and
> without the EQ?
>
> Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how much?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 08:31:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Feb 11 08:31:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
Message-ID: <200302111327.h1BDRdW23086@hades.usol.com>

Bob, 	

	You think my James B. Lansing Century L-100 sound poor? Hmm. Pray tell, what do
you think sounds good?	
	
You are the first, and only, person in twenty-nine years who said that about the
Century L-100's. Even allowing for a difference in personal taste, tone deafness
and lack of music taste, your statement seems rather harsh. (Not that you are
tone deaf or have no musical taste) 	
	
Duane W8DBF	
 

----------
From: WBob <wolfbob@csnsys.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:01 AM

Bose not only don't sound good without the equalizer, they sound 
terrible. Even with the equalizer they are very poor compared to most 
anything else..even your JBL 100s.

WBob

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> 	
> The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit. It
has
> always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit is
> used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
> intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for them by
> Bose. 	
> 
> 	Right or wrong? 	
> 	
> What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ and
> without the EQ?	
> 	
> Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how much? 	
> 	
> Thanks. 		
> 	
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF	
>  
> 
> 	 		
>   
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 09:37:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Salmons, Michael)
Date: Tue Feb 11 09:37:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
Message-ID: <6CA38FBFD10A5B48B1F26ADA36C841496F817A@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu>

Like any bad speaker, you may get something acceptible from the use of a =
parametric, not graphical, eq... I have found from my own experience =
that the negative effects of inferior enclosures with distracting =
resonant effects, for instance, can be modulated, but not eliminated, =
using very controlled equalization, something parametric eq can do but =
graphic eq simply cannot. But no amount of equalization can help a bad =
driver, which the 901 has several of.

Michael Salmons

-----Original Message-----
From: WBob [mailto:wolfbob@csnsys.com]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 11:01 PM
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ


Bose not only don't sound good without the equalizer, they sound=20
terrible. Even with the equalizer they are very poor compared to most=20
anything else..even your JBL 100s.

WBob

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> =09
> The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ =
unit. It has
> always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ =
unit is
> used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the =
proper
> intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for =
them by
> Bose. =09
>=20
> 	Right or wrong? =09
> =09
> What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper =
EQ and
> without the EQ?=09
> =09
> Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how =
much? =09
> =09
> Thanks. 	=09
> =09
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF=09
> =20
>=20
> 	 	=09
>  =20
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **=20
>=20
>=20


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **=20

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 12:19:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Tue Feb 11 12:19:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
References: <200302111327.h1BDRdW23086@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <3E492E5B.10103@csnsys.com>

Duane..don't get me wrong..they don't sound bad, just that they suffer 
from rather poor tweeters. The L-100 was a price point copy of the 
very good sounding 4340 (or some number close to that), which was/is a 
studio reference speaker of quite high merit. JBL improved on the 
L-100 with the L-200 and it sounds much better. I have a pair of 
L-177s which was an intermediate step (titanium dome tweeters) in the 
chain. The bass is astounding and the mids are vey clean in all the L 
series, it is the tweets that are different.

BTW, I recently got a realtime spectrum analyzer that has thousands of 
little dots that give the amplitude of the sound as a function of 
frequency. I find that the L-177s are set poorly (they have 
adjustments for mid and high) with about a 6 dB dip in the mids. Shows 
how bad my ears are, so don't believe anything I say.

WBob

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> Bob, 	
> 
> 	You think my James B. Lansing Century L-100 sound poor? Hmm. Pray tell, what do
> you think sounds good?	
> 	
> You are the first, and only, person in twenty-nine years who said that about the
> Century L-100's. Even allowing for a difference in personal taste, tone deafness
> and lack of music taste, your statement seems rather harsh. (Not that you are
> tone deaf or have no musical taste) 	
> 	
> Duane W8DBF	
>  
> 
> ----------
> From: WBob <wolfbob@csnsys.com>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
> Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:01 AM
> 
> Bose not only don't sound good without the equalizer, they sound 
> terrible. Even with the equalizer they are very poor compared to most 
> anything else..even your JBL 100s.
> 
> WBob
> 
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> 
>>	
>>The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit. It
> 
> has
> 
>>always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit is
>>used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
>>intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for them by
>>Bose. 	
>>
>>	Right or wrong? 	
>>	
>>What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ and
>>without the EQ?	
>>	
>>Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how much? 	
>>	
>>Thanks. 		
>>	
>>Duane Fischer, W8DBF	
>> 
>>
>>	 		
>>  
>>_______________________________________________
>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
>>List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>>** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> 
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 12:27:04 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Rick Gouge  VE7RiK)
Date: Tue Feb 11 12:27:04 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Wanted, Schematic For 77A revox
Message-ID: <001f01c2d1f2$54821fe0$a9acf4cc@w7u7f7>

Its there somebody out there willing to copy me a schematic for the 77A
revox reel to reel. If so please let me know and i will cover cost. I need
this for a fellow that is fixing this unit for me. The cap stand motor is
not working at all. Thankyou. Rick



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 12:49:02 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (R. B. Clark)
Date: Tue Feb 11 12:49:02 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
References: <200302110451.h1B4pBW28441@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c2d1f5$79fe5920$ae45a641@clark>

You are correct....also note that the EQ for series one and two is different
than series three forward and so on...in my opinion the series two Bose 901
's were and are superior to the later more efficient models, they however
require 80 watts rms are greater to perform  properly.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 11:46 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ


>
>
> The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit.
It has
> always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit
is
> used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
> intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for
them by
> Bose.
>
> Right or wrong?
>
> What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ
and
> without the EQ?
>
> Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how much?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 14:24:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Feb 11 14:24:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
Message-ID: <200302111921.h1BJLOW16282@hades.usol.com>

Hi Bob, 	
	
I guess the electronics just goes to show what is there and what we think we
hear. In my case, I have a serious loss in the 4 Khz range in the left ear due
to a Cobra cordless phone from 1981 ringing in my ear while I was using it. Not
supposed to happen. Talk about pain! I screamed and threw it on the ground. I
found out later that there was a class action lawsuit by 100 others who had
their hearing permanently damaged by these factory defective phones. Too bad I
missed joing that.	
	
Now I have a permanent ringing from nerve damage and up to a 30 db loss in the 4
Khz range +/-	
	
If you know where I can get the L-200 studio monitors (weren't they two-way?) or
the L-177, I would be very interested. I have had zero success in finding the
older JBL speakers.	
	
Duane W8DBF	
   

----------
From: WBob <wolfbob@csnsys.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:09 PM

Duane..don't get me wrong..they don't sound bad, just that they suffer 
from rather poor tweeters. The L-100 was a price point copy of the 
very good sounding 4340 (or some number close to that), which was/is a 
studio reference speaker of quite high merit. JBL improved on the 
L-100 with the L-200 and it sounds much better. I have a pair of 
L-177s which was an intermediate step (titanium dome tweeters) in the 
chain. The bass is astounding and the mids are vey clean in all the L 
series, it is the tweets that are different.

BTW, I recently got a realtime spectrum analyzer that has thousands of 
little dots that give the amplitude of the sound as a function of 
frequency. I find that the L-177s are set poorly (they have 
adjustments for mid and high) with about a 6 dB dip in the mids. Shows 
how bad my ears are, so don't believe anything I say.

WBob

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> Bob, 	
> 
> 	You think my James B. Lansing Century L-100 sound poor? Hmm. Pray tell, what
do
> you think sounds good?	
> 	
> You are the first, and only, person in twenty-nine years who said that about
the
> Century L-100's. Even allowing for a difference in personal taste, tone
deafness
> and lack of music taste, your statement seems rather harsh. (Not that you are
> tone deaf or have no musical taste) 	
> 	
> Duane W8DBF	
>  
> 
> ----------
> From: WBob <wolfbob@csnsys.com>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
> Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:01 AM
> 
> Bose not only don't sound good without the equalizer, they sound 
> terrible. Even with the equalizer they are very poor compared to most 
> anything else..even your JBL 100s.
> 
> WBob
> 
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> 
>>	
>>The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit. It
> 
> has
> 
>>always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit is
>>used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
>>intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for them by
>>Bose. 	
>>
>>	Right or wrong? 	
>>	
>>What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ and
>>without the EQ?	
>>	
>>Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how much? 	
>>	
>>Thanks. 		
>>	
>>Duane Fischer, W8DBF	
>> 
>>
>>	 		
>>  
>>_______________________________________________
>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
>>List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>>** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 14:44:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net)
Date: Tue Feb 11 14:44:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Wanted, Schematic For 77A revox
Message-ID: <127.221e4cad.2b7aabda@aol.com>

Hi Rick,

I have a manual for an A77 and a 77A. Neither one includes schematic. I guess 
they were only made available as part of a maintenance manual.

Try some repair shop. And let me know if you find one. I have four of these 
blooming things.

Tnx es 73 de Ron K  --  W1ARS

 FISTS #5768; S.O.W.P #5676-V; QCWA #29671; Top Band #1468


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
The reason this message is shown is because the post was in HTML
or had an attachment.  Attachments are not allowed.  To learn how
to post in Plain-Text go to: http://www.expita.com/nomime.html  ---

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 15:33:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Tue Feb 11 15:33:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
References: <200302111921.h1BJLOW16282@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <3E495E0C.5080808@csnsys.com>

Duane..
I have been looking for a pair of the 4340s or whatever the JBL studio 
monitors of great fame are numbered. I have 7 speakers now in the 
system (6.1). The two JBLs are LF and RF, A 10 inch ADVENT acoustic in 
the FC (this is a great speaker and I find them at swap meets all the 
time for $20/pr and they need surrounds replaced ($22.00kit)). The two 
side speakers are little 8 inch KLHs and the rear is a 10in Wharfdale. 
All but the JBLs are acoustic loaded. I really like the sound of the 
old acoustics. The subwoofer is a 12 in direct with 150watts. All this 
is in a 12x12x8 room full of books, ham and computer stuff.

WBob

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> Hi Bob, 	
> 	
> I guess the electronics just goes to show what is there and what we think we
> hear. In my case, I have a serious loss in the 4 Khz range in the left ear due
> to a Cobra cordless phone from 1981 ringing in my ear while I was using it. Not
> supposed to happen. Talk about pain! I screamed and threw it on the ground. I
> found out later that there was a class action lawsuit by 100 others who had
> their hearing permanently damaged by these factory defective phones. Too bad I
> missed joing that.	
> 	
> Now I have a permanent ringing from nerve damage and up to a 30 db loss in the 4
> Khz range +/-	
> 	
> If you know where I can get the L-200 studio monitors (weren't they two-way?) or
> the L-177, I would be very interested. I have had zero success in finding the
> older JBL speakers.	
> 	
> Duane W8DBF	
>    
> 
> ----------
> From: WBob <wolfbob@csnsys.com>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
> Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:09 PM
> 
> Duane..don't get me wrong..they don't sound bad, just that they suffer 
> from rather poor tweeters. The L-100 was a price point copy of the 
> very good sounding 4340 (or some number close to that), which was/is a 
> studio reference speaker of quite high merit. JBL improved on the 
> L-100 with the L-200 and it sounds much better. I have a pair of 
> L-177s which was an intermediate step (titanium dome tweeters) in the 
> chain. The bass is astounding and the mids are vey clean in all the L 
> series, it is the tweets that are different.
> 
> BTW, I recently got a realtime spectrum analyzer that has thousands of 
> little dots that give the amplitude of the sound as a function of 
> frequency. I find that the L-177s are set poorly (they have 
> adjustments for mid and high) with about a 6 dB dip in the mids. Shows 
> how bad my ears are, so don't believe anything I say.
> 
> WBob
> 
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> 
>>Bob, 	
>>
>>	You think my James B. Lansing Century L-100 sound poor? Hmm. Pray tell, what
> 
> do
> 
>>you think sounds good?	
>>	
>>You are the first, and only, person in twenty-nine years who said that about
> 
> the
> 
>>Century L-100's. Even allowing for a difference in personal taste, tone
> 
> deafness
> 
>>and lack of music taste, your statement seems rather harsh. (Not that you are
>>tone deaf or have no musical taste) 	
>>	
>>Duane W8DBF	
>> 
>>
>>----------
>>From: WBob <wolfbob@csnsys.com>
>>To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
>>Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
>>Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:01 AM
>>
>>Bose not only don't sound good without the equalizer, they sound 
>>terrible. Even with the equalizer they are very poor compared to most 
>>anything else..even your JBL 100s.
>>
>>WBob
>>
>>Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
>>
>>
>>>	
>>>The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a generic EQ unit. It
>>
>>has
>>
>>
>>>always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the Bose EQ unit is
>>>used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To get the proper
>>>intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ designed for them by
>>>Bose. 	
>>>
>>>	Right or wrong? 	
>>>	
>>>What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with the proper EQ and
>>>without the EQ?	
>>>	
>>>Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if so, how much? 	
>>>	
>>>Thanks. 		
>>>	
>>>Duane Fischer, W8DBF	
>>>
>>>
>>>	 		
>>> 
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
>>>List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>>>** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
>>List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>>** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
>>_______________________________________________
>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
>>List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>>** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> 
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 16:16:05 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (shadow)
Date: Tue Feb 11 16:16:05 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Wanted, Schematic For 77A revox
References: <127.221e4cad.2b7aabda@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3E496757.15602C2B@gilroy.com>

Hi Guys.....

This will help.....

http://borngraeber.hans.bei.t-online.de/Revox/a77_service.pdf

Yep.... I have three of them

S

A gun in the hand, is better then a cop on the phone.



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 17:02:12 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert  J.  McKee)
Date: Tue Feb 11 17:02:12 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ
References: <6CA38FBFD10A5B48B1F26ADA36C841496F817A@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <03c401c2d216$d0ba9f00$721bf7a5@b5z1q8>

There is a whale of a lot more to a good speaker (we
really mean good sound) than flat frequency response.
Use of ANY equalization just takes away from whatever
is good about a speaker system.

And it's a shame that 98% of the population has be be
taught how to use their ears to really listen.  They miss
the majority of what they hear in addition to being a
victim of Madison Avenue and merchandising efforts.

Live unamplified music is the best and if you are not
regularly exposed to it, well, you just need to listen to
what satisfies your hunger for vibrations in the air.

Bob McKee



----- Original Message -----
From: "Salmons, Michael" <SalmonsM@missouri.edu>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ


Like any bad speaker, you may get something acceptible from
the use of a parametric, not graphical, eq... I have found
from my own experience that the negative effects of inferior
enclosures with distracting resonant effects, for instance,
can be modulated, but not eliminated, using very controlled
equalization, something parametric eq can do but graphic eq
simply cannot. But no amount of equalization can help a bad
driver, which the 901 has several of.

Michael Salmons

-----Original Message-----
From: WBob [mailto:wolfbob@csnsys.com]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 11:01 PM
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Bose 901 And EQ


Bose not only don't sound good without the equalizer, they
sound
terrible. Even with the equalizer they are very poor compared
to most
anything else..even your JBL 100s.

WBob

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
>
> The Bose 901 in question are from 1971. They are using a
generic EQ unit. It has
> always been my understanding,and experience, that unless the
Bose EQ unit is
> used, the sound is only so so. Nothing special at all. To
get the proper
> intended audio response the Bose speakers must use the EQ
designed for them by
> Bose.
>
> Right or wrong?
>
> What is a pair of these ceiling mounted speakers worth with
the proper EQ and
> without the EQ?
>
> Is it still possible to purchase the correct EQ for them, if
so, how much?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
>


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 11 20:09:14 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Rick Gouge  VE7RiK)
Date: Tue Feb 11 20:09:14 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Wanted, Schematic For 77A revox
References: <127.221e4cad.2b7aabda@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c2d232$f725e9d0$85acf4cc@w7u7f7>

Will Do Ron. Thankyou very much for the info.  Rick
----- Original Message -----
From: <BrRonK777@aol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Wanted, Schematic For 77A revox


> Hi Rick,
>
> I have a manual for an A77 and a 77A. Neither one includes schematic. I
guess
> they were only made available as part of a maintenance manual.
>
> Try some repair shop. And let me know if you find one. I have four of
these
> blooming things.
>
> Tnx es 73 de Ron K  --  W1ARS
>
>  FISTS #5768; S.O.W.P #5676-V; QCWA #29671; Top Band #1468
>
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> The reason this message is shown is because the post was in HTML
> or had an attachment.  Attachments are not allowed.  To learn how
> to post in Plain-Text go to: http://www.expita.com/nomime.html  ---
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Fri Feb 14 15:02:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (JM/CO)
Date: Fri Feb 14 15:02:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
References: <200302110421.h1B4L8W26617@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <000701c2d45a$e4fe2040$fa56d63f@net>

Duane-
A pair of 6V6s in AB1 can produce 10 to 14 watts "depending". Should be
adequate, at least for evaluation purposes. If you like the results, you
might shift to a different amp.
Chuck N1LNH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel


> Chuck,
>
> Thank you for some excellent information.
>
> I do have a mono tube amp on the top shelf. I have not used it in two
years. I
> think it is a home brew cross between a mono sound system and a PA system
> design. It has a pair of 6V6 in push/pull, line inputs and mike inputs. I
do not
> recall if only the mike inputs have level controls or not. Gong to have to
lift
> it down and check her out tomorrow.
>
> Seems like the output should be adequate to drive an 8 ohm two-way cabinet
with
> eight inch and Aluminum dome tweeter. Any thoughts?
>
> More after I climb up. lift it down and check it out.
>
> Duane W8DBF
>
>
> ----------
> From: JM/CO <jmerritt2@capecod.net>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
> Date: Monday, February 10, 2003 5:03 PM
>
> OK- Memory fails again.
> I just took a look at some schematics for H. H. Scott amps of this
vintage.
> I don't have one for the LK-72-B, so I cannot give an exact reply here. I
> have, however enough other schematics of similar vintage Scott units to
> postulate a reasonable explanation.
> Your set is the kit version of the 299-D, which uses 7591 finals. The
299-D
> schematic clearly shows two screw terminals which are intended for direct
> connection to a speaker. But---
> You have stated that your rig has only an RCA jack. Obviously further
> research required here.
> The schematic for the LK-48 ( a kit version of the 222-B/C ) has no center
> channel provision. Nothing to be learned here.
> The schematic for the LK-48 / 200-B does have a center channel output, and
> ( guess what ? ) It's an RCA jack !!
> A brief study of the schematic clearly shows that the signal available at
> this jack is sampled from the secondary of the output transformers, but is
> run through an attenuater / summing circuit which converts it to high
> impedance / line level. It obvious that this is intended to be run through
a
> separate power amplifier.
> One could run this through ANY power amp, but as the output present at
this
> jack is from the final end of the LK-72-B, it is subject to all actions of
> all controls. I would think that the best solution here would be to run
this
> into a single channel power amp with ONLY an input level control.
> An H.H. Scott 208 mono power amp would be a perfect match, as it uses
> basically the same circuit as the 299-D / LK-72 . A 240 would be fine too,
> but a bit of overkill with it's EL-34 finals. Even a smaller ( than 7591 )
> amp would be fine, as the ctr. channel speaker is generally run at a lower
> SPL than the main speakers.
> Chuck N1LNH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JM/CO" <jmerritt2@capecod.net>
> To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
>
>
> > This was not an un-common feature on amps of this vintage. The output is
> > summed from both channels, and is at "speaker level". It is not
generally
> > possible to do this trick with solid state, hence the disappearance of
> this
> > feature from the industry.
> > Just connect a suitable speaker, and enjoy. Three channel systems are
> great,
> > especially when using rather small speakers in a large room where they
are
> > spread apart. The third speaker eliminates the "hole in the middle"
effect
> > of such a rig. You may want to place an attenuater in line, in order to
> > compensate for the relative efficiency differences of the speakers. The
> best
> > set-up of this type was used by McIntosh and others who made separate
pre
> > and power amps. The three channels came out of the preamp at line level,
> and
> > each could be run through an appropriate power amp to it's respective
> > speaker. This system enabled the independent setting of main and center
> > channel levels.
> > Chuck N1LNH
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
> > To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:18 PM
> > Subject: [Vintage-Audio] H. Scott Center Channel
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > The H. Scott LK-72b integrated stereo amplifier has provisions for a
> > center
> > > channel output. Can someone please tell me about it?
> > >
> > > I am presuming it is a mix of the left and right channels?
> > >
> > > I am also presuming that to utilize this center channel requires a
power
> > amp?
> > >
> > > What controls the center channel: the primary amplifier or the power
> > amplifier?
> > >
> > >
> > > A rather innovative concept for 1963.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > dfischer@usol.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Tue Feb 18 18:25:08 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Tue Feb 18 18:25:08 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re H. Scott LT-100
Message-ID: <200302182321.h1INLsW14555@hades.usol.com>

	
Can anyone tell me why no schematics appear to be available for the H. Scott
LT-100 FM tuner? It seems to have been replaced by the LT-110 in 1963 and looks
very much like it. The LT-100 was produced when? 1961-1962? Was it a short run
product or why is information so sparce on it? 	
	
thanks. 	
	
Duane W8DBF 	
  

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 00:05:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Thu Feb 27 00:05:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
Message-ID: <200302270501.h1R51AW14020@hades.usol.com>

	
Hi All, 	
	
The input select knob on the H. Scott LK-72b stereo amplifier has only three
choices; phono, tuner or extra (auxiliary). There is no position for tape.
However, the rear has both input and output jacks for a tape deck, so it does
support a tape loop. But how to select it? 	
	
There is a two position slide switch on the front of the amplifier marked: tape
monitor: tape or source. Is the 'tape' position used to play tapes through the
system and the 'source' position used for the inputs selected via the input
select knob? 	
	
There is also a second two position slide switch on the front marked:
Equilization. The choices are NAB tape/riaa or phono. Can somebody explain to me
the purpose of this switch and what it is supposed to do? 	
	
Thank you for the assistance. 	
	
Duane W8DBF	
    

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 01:27:14 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Fred Olsen)
Date: Thu Feb 27 01:27:14 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
References: <200302270501.h1R51AW14020@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <3E5DADA7.3020009@execpc.com>

Hi Duane,

I'll not copy this to the list for several reasons.  One, I don't have a 
Scott at hand.  Two, this is from memory of how things used to be, so 
some of it is conjecture.  Three, I ain't no expert.

The extra or auxiliary input is likely at line level with flat 
equalization.  This might work for tape playback if the output of the 
deck in question is equalized to flat.  It is more likely intended as a 
mixer input, or simply a spare, for whatever purpose.

The rear tape loop jacks are what was actually intended to be used, and 
this derives from "back then" when tape decks were not considered a 
primary input source.  Before prerecorded tapes were common it was 
assumed that the user would use tape for off-air recording.  I still 
have boxes of tapes of The Met peeling away someplace.

When playing a tape one sets the tape monitor switch to "tape", which I 
would expect to cut off other sources.  When recording, the "source" 
position is obvious and the "tape" position will provide a check of 
as-recorded if one is using a four-head deck.  That can be confirmed by 
switching between the two and noting the transit delay.  With less than 
four heads it simply follows the source.

The source equalizations of tape and disc were different.  The NAB 
(National Association of Broadcasters) position is intended for a tape 
source and the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) position 
is intended for disc.  (I say disc to distinguish between "rec-ord" and 
"ree-cord".)  Don't ask me to recite the specifics of either curve as it 
has been way too long.  When playing a disc, set the equalization to 
phono, and to tape for tape.  This function was integrated into the 
input source switching on virtually all later preamps, and is separate 
here because of the tape not being considered a primary source.

Further nuances would need to be determined from the operating 
instructions and/or the skiz.

Best regards,
Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 01:57:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Fred Olsen)
Date: Thu Feb 27 01:57:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
References: <200302270501.h1R51AW14020@hades.usol.com> <3E5DADA7.3020009@execpc.com>
Message-ID: <3E5DB610.4000708@execpc.com>

Fred Olsen wrote:

> I'll not copy this to the list ...

Well, it looks like I did anyway, because of the *&^%$#@! "Reply-To" 
function.  I INTENDED to send it only to Duane, so if my answer was full 
of canal water, tell him - but don't flame me.

reply-challenged Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 02:17:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Thu Feb 27 02:17:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
References: <200302270501.h1R51AW14020@hades.usol.com> <3E5DADA7.3020009@execpc.com>
Message-ID: <3E5DBB75.3020506@csnsys.com>

No..I think this is partially wrong...

In the old days tape transports and tape electronics were two 
different entities. It was possible to buy a tape deck that only had 
the transport and no electronics and to play a tape you needed to hook 
the play head to a properly equalized preamp. The tape preamp is very 
similar to a turntable preamp except the eq is completely opposite, 
going the other way in the gain vs frequency.

WBob

Fred Olsen wrote:
> Hi Duane,
> 
> I'll not copy this to the list for several reasons.  One, I don't have a 
> Scott at hand.  Two, this is from memory of how things used to be, so 
> some of it is conjecture.  Three, I ain't no expert.
> 
> The extra or auxiliary input is likely at line level with flat 
> equalization.  This might work for tape playback if the output of the 
> deck in question is equalized to flat.  It is more likely intended as a 
> mixer input, or simply a spare, for whatever purpose.
> 
> The rear tape loop jacks are what was actually intended to be used, and 
> this derives from "back then" when tape decks were not considered a 
> primary input source.  Before prerecorded tapes were common it was 
> assumed that the user would use tape for off-air recording.  I still 
> have boxes of tapes of The Met peeling away someplace.
> 
> When playing a tape one sets the tape monitor switch to "tape", which I 
> would expect to cut off other sources.  When recording, the "source" 
> position is obvious and the "tape" position will provide a check of 
> as-recorded if one is using a four-head deck.  That can be confirmed by 
> switching between the two and noting the transit delay.  With less than 
> four heads it simply follows the source.
> 
> The source equalizations of tape and disc were different.  The NAB 
> (National Association of Broadcasters) position is intended for a tape 
> source and the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) position 
> is intended for disc.  (I say disc to distinguish between "rec-ord" and 
> "ree-cord".)  Don't ask me to recite the specifics of either curve as it 
> has been way too long.  When playing a disc, set the equalization to 
> phono, and to tape for tape.  This function was integrated into the 
> input source switching on virtually all later preamps, and is separate 
> here because of the tape not being considered a primary source.
> 
> Further nuances would need to be determined from the operating 
> instructions and/or the skiz.
> 
> Best regards,
> Fred
> -----
> <><
> -----
> Outgoing checked by Norton AV
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 02:36:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Fred Olsen)
Date: Thu Feb 27 02:36:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
References: <200302270501.h1R51AW14020@hades.usol.com> <3E5DADA7.3020009@execpc.com> <3E5DBB75.3020506@csnsys.com>
Message-ID: <3E5DBF25.7010904@execpc.com>

WBob wrote:

> No..I think this is partially wrong...
> 
> In the old days tape transports and tape electronics were two different 
> entities. It was possible to buy a tape deck that only had the transport 
> and no electronics and to play a tape you needed to hook the play head 
> to a properly equalized preamp. ...


Sheesh!  Now this is why I hate getting bitten by the afore-cussed 
"Reply-To" function.  "No good deed goes unpunished."

First, what did I write that was wrong?  Maybe I'm sleepy but I can't 
find with what you're disagreeing.  I concur with what you've said about 
transports and preamps but it doesn't disagree with what I said.

Second; sorry, but no way does that Scott's tape loop input have enough 
gain to handle a raw head output.  It is intended for a tape line source.

Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 04:02:04 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Mike Clarson)
Date: Thu Feb 27 04:02:04 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
In-Reply-To: <3E5DBF25.7010904@execpc.com>
Message-ID: <000601c2de3f$49b50060$81010c0a@clarson>

Fred: I like seeing the response to the list -- to enlighten us all!

 Maybe the EQ switch was so the mag  phono input could be used for phono OR
tape heads? I always thought once one got to line level, EQ was done.

Tape playback using source/monitor switch makes sense.--Mike


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 09:33:59 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Thu Feb 27 09:33:59 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
Message-ID: <200302271430.h1REU5W12569@hades.usol.com>

Hello Fred, 	

	I think you are completely correct, based on what I already knew. I have worked
with these devices since 1965, but some manufacturers called the same function
by another name. I also have a habit of sometimes asking a loaded question, one
I already know the answer to. Normally I do this to flush out those who know
from those who are just making noise. However, that was not the case here. 	
	
I had already deduced the correct position of the equalization switch, but I was
not sure what 'NAB' and the other one stood for. I do not recall ever hearing
that second one before. Maybe did and just forgot about it as it served me no
purpose to remember. Normally I retain nearly everything, so when I exclude
something it is almost always by design. 	
	
I had also deduced the 'tape' and 'source' positions were as you had indicated. 

	
This was the first amplifier I had seen with the tape input select not included
with the primary choice of inputs one could select from. However, I just got a
Marantz integrated amp in an insurance settlement and it too has a separate
button for both tape and cdr/md operation. I do not like this amplifier.
Primarily because the input select knob has continuous rotation with every
thirty degrees being a new position. That is, twelve clicks equals 360 degrees
of rotation. However, there are only five inputs to be selected from, so the
same input is not always in the same physical position. There is simply no way
for me to know which input I have presently selected.    	
	
There are no markings on the knob. All selections are indicated by a very very
tiny little light above a label printed left to right across the face of the
amplifier. The unit must be powered on to see these.	

	Other than this one impossible for me to use feature, I like the amplifier
itself quite well. Unfortunately, because I like to do custom recording, as you
have now seen/heard, I must also be in full control of all functions at all
times. Not possible with the Marantz PMA-5000.  	
	
Thank you for the good information Fred. It is much appreciated. I will now
connect up the Revox B77 and Teac AN-180 Dolby/equalization unit. 	
	
Duane W8DBF	
 

----------
From: Fred Olsen <fwolsen@execpc.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
Date: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:18 AM

Hi Duane,

I'll not copy this to the list for several reasons.  One, I don't have a 
Scott at hand.  Two, this is from memory of how things used to be, so 
some of it is conjecture.  Three, I ain't no expert.

The extra or auxiliary input is likely at line level with flat 
equalization.  This might work for tape playback if the output of the 
deck in question is equalized to flat.  It is more likely intended as a 
mixer input, or simply a spare, for whatever purpose.

The rear tape loop jacks are what was actually intended to be used, and 
this derives from "back then" when tape decks were not considered a 
primary input source.  Before prerecorded tapes were common it was 
assumed that the user would use tape for off-air recording.  I still 
have boxes of tapes of The Met peeling away someplace.

When playing a tape one sets the tape monitor switch to "tape", which I 
would expect to cut off other sources.  When recording, the "source" 
position is obvious and the "tape" position will provide a check of 
as-recorded if one is using a four-head deck.  That can be confirmed by 
switching between the two and noting the transit delay.  With less than 
four heads it simply follows the source.

The source equalizations of tape and disc were different.  The NAB 
(National Association of Broadcasters) position is intended for a tape 
source and the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) position 
is intended for disc.  (I say disc to distinguish between "rec-ord" and 
"ree-cord".)  Don't ask me to recite the specifics of either curve as it 
has been way too long.  When playing a disc, set the equalization to 
phono, and to tape for tape.  This function was integrated into the 
input source switching on virtually all later preamps, and is separate 
here because of the tape not being considered a primary source.

Further nuances would need to be determined from the operating 
instructions and/or the skiz.

Best regards,
Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 10:18:03 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Salmons, Michael)
Date: Thu Feb 27 10:18:03 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
Message-ID: <6CA38FBFD10A5B48B1F26ADA36C84149026846BE@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu>


Fred, I, too, am glad you replied to the list- it's making for some =
lively conversation! I am inclined to agree with both Fred AND Bob.

On most amps (see below for clarification), I find the source/tape =
function works exactly as Fred described *if* using a three-head  deck =
with its own source/tape switch, and the switch is in the "tape" =
position. of course, with such a provision, one could simply switch to =
monitor the tape on the amp and switch back and forth between source and =
tape to your heart's content on the deck, which is what i usually do.

However... I have observed the tape input on various vintage amps to =
behave differently. Both source and tape seem pretty much to be =
line-level on some, and others do appear to have a very low-level =
(sometimes, but not always, called "tape head") input designed for the =
separate units described by Bob. My Eico integrated is like that, as is =
my Dynaco preamp.

Michael Salmons

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Olsen [mailto:fwolsen@execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:33 AM
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp


WBob wrote:

> No..I think this is partially wrong...
>=20
> In the old days tape transports and tape electronics were two =
different=20
> entities. It was possible to buy a tape deck that only had the =
transport=20
> and no electronics and to play a tape you needed to hook the play head =

> to a properly equalized preamp. ...


Sheesh!  Now this is why I hate getting bitten by the afore-cussed=20
"Reply-To" function.  "No good deed goes unpunished."

First, what did I write that was wrong?  Maybe I'm sleepy but I can't=20
find with what you're disagreeing.  I concur with what you've said about =

transports and preamps but it doesn't disagree with what I said.

Second; sorry, but no way does that Scott's tape loop input have enough=20
gain to handle a raw head output.  It is intended for a tape line =
source.

Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **=20

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 12:25:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Thu Feb 27 12:25:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
References: <200302270501.h1R51AW14020@hades.usol.com> <3E5DADA7.3020009@execpc.com> <3E5DBB75.3020506@csnsys.com> <3E5DBF25.7010904@execpc.com>
Message-ID: <3E5E49E9.5050002@csnsys.com>

Wanna Bet??

WB

Fred Olsen wrote:
>
> 
> Second; sorry, but no way does that Scott's tape loop input have enough 
> gain to handle a raw head output.  It is intended for a tape line source.
> 
> Fred
>


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 13:09:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Fred Olsen)
Date: Thu Feb 27 13:09:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
References: <200302270501.h1R51AW14020@hades.usol.com> <3E5DADA7.3020009@execpc.com> <3E5DBB75.3020506@csnsys.com> <3E5DBF25.7010904@execpc.com> <3E5E49E9.5050002@csnsys.com>
Message-ID: <3E5E5368.90502@execpc.com>

>> Fred Olsen wrote:
>> Second; sorry, but no way does that Scott's tape loop input have 
>> enough gain to handle a raw head output.  It is intended for a tape 
>> line source.


 > WBob wrote:
 > Wanna Bet??
 >
 > WB

Great, please do correct what I wrote.  Not wanting to offend the 
sensibilities of those far more expert than I was why I wanted to reply 
only to Duane, but got snagged by the 'reply-to' (THANKS, Duane!). 
That's also why I made it clear that some of what I wrote was conjecture 
due to lack of specifications and limits of memory.

So please do share a better explanation of the subject, and be sure to 
include the specs for the tape loop input on Duane's H.H. Scott LK-72B.

Thanks,
Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 13:49:04 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Thu Feb 27 13:49:04 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
References: <200302270501.h1R51AW14020@hades.usol.com> <3E5DADA7.3020009@execpc.com> <3E5DBB75.3020506@csnsys.com> <3E5DBF25.7010904@execpc.com> <3E5E49E9.5050002@csnsys.com> <3E5E5368.90502@execpc.com>
Message-ID: <3E5E5D08.9050107@csnsys.com>

I do not have the specs or schematics on Duane's receiver. But the eq 
for tape heads and phono pickups is always done in the preamp. The 
mention of NAB, which is the tape EQ curve (RIAA is the Phono) and a 
switch that selects between the two quite different eq curves is a 
clear and undisputable indication that the preamp in Duane's receiver 
was intended to be used directly with tape heads and this was commonly 
done in the 60-70s. The line level tape loop input/output is flat and 
free from any eq. We are both right, in your saying the tape loop is 
flat and my saying that the phono input has switchable eq so it can be 
used for either tape heads or phono pickups. No flame intended, just 
an attempt to correct what I interpreted you to say in your original 
response...

Plus these thing should be discussed on the open mail as many folk are 
out there learning. They need and enjoy technical discussions.

WBob

Fred Olsen wrote:
>>> Fred Olsen wrote:
>>> Second; sorry, but no way does that Scott's tape loop input have 
>>> enough gain to handle a raw head output.  It is intended for a tape 
>>> line source.
>>
> 
> 
>  > WBob wrote:
>  > Wanna Bet??
>  >
>  > WB
> 
> Great, please do correct what I wrote.  Not wanting to offend the 
> sensibilities of those far more expert than I was why I wanted to reply 
> only to Duane, but got snagged by the 'reply-to' (THANKS, Duane!). 
> That's also why I made it clear that some of what I wrote was conjecture 
> due to lack of specifications and limits of memory.
> 
> So please do share a better explanation of the subject, and be sure to 
> include the specs for the tape loop input on Duane's H.H. Scott LK-72B.
> 
> Thanks,
> Fred
> -----
> <><
> -----
> Outgoing checked by Norton AV
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 16:14:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Thu Feb 27 16:14:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
Message-ID: <200302272110.h1RLAUW08780@hades.usol.com>

Bob, Fred and Mother Goose -  	
	
I like the 'reply to list' feature because it wakes a sleeping list right up.
Those opinions (never let facts cloud an issue) start flying around like pillows
at a teenage overnight sleep in! 	
	
Sometimes the term used means one thing to person A and another to person B.
Just a difference in perception. 	
	
I have been known to intentionally write something incorrect just to get a list
breathing again! 	
	
Whatever you guys decide, I got this puppy working either way.	
	
Duane W8DBF	
 

----------
From: Fred Olsen <fwolsen@execpc.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
Date: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:32 AM

WBob wrote:

> No..I think this is partially wrong...
> 
> In the old days tape transports and tape electronics were two different 
> entities. It was possible to buy a tape deck that only had the transport 
> and no electronics and to play a tape you needed to hook the play head 
> to a properly equalized preamp. ...


Sheesh!  Now this is why I hate getting bitten by the afore-cussed 
"Reply-To" function.  "No good deed goes unpunished."

First, what did I write that was wrong?  Maybe I'm sleepy but I can't 
find with what you're disagreeing.  I concur with what you've said about 
transports and preamps but it doesn't disagree with what I said.

Second; sorry, but no way does that Scott's tape loop input have enough 
gain to handle a raw head output.  It is intended for a tape line source.

Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 16:59:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Fred Olsen)
Date: Thu Feb 27 16:59:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
References: <200302272110.h1RLAUW08780@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <3E5E895A.20707@execpc.com>

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:

> I like the 'reply to list' feature because it wakes a sleeping list right up.

Hey Bob!  It's Duane's fault - let's blame HIM!

Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 18:02:06 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Thu Feb 27 18:02:06 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
Message-ID: <200302272259.h1RMx5W16956@hades.usol.com>

I liked it much better touring on stage and getting fan mail, as opposed to
running a complaint center!

----------
From: Fred Olsen <fwolsen@execpc.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
Date: Thursday, February 27, 2003 4:55 PM

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:

> I like the 'reply to list' feature because it wakes a sleeping list right up.

Hey Bob!  It's Duane's fault - let's blame HIM!

Fred
-----
<><
-----
Outgoing checked by Norton AV


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 20:23:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Thu Feb 27 20:23:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
References: <200302272110.h1RLAUW08780@hades.usol.com> <3E5E895A.20707@execpc.com>
Message-ID: <3E5EBA1B.5060300@csnsys.com>

Trouble with this list is everyone on here is overage...I keep dozing 
off...

WB

Fred Olsen wrote:
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> 
>> I like the 'reply to list' feature because it wakes a sleeping list 
>> right up.
> 
> 
> Hey Bob!  It's Duane's fault - let's blame HIM!
> 
> Fred
> -----
> <><
> -----
> Outgoing checked by Norton AV
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 20:47:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Thu Feb 27 20:47:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
Message-ID: <200302280143.h1S1h3W28239@hades.usol.com>

Bob, 	
	
After reading your description to me in an earlier post about all the awesome
audio gear you have somehow crammed into that one room, all you have to do is
flip a switch Bob and it will certainly wake you right up OM! As the Coasters
sang: "Wake me, shake me, don't let me sleep too late!" 	
	
You will know you are truly old, when you get excited about being able to turn
something on, even if it is just a light switch! 	
	
Duane is now returning to enjoying vintage stereo which was playing a series of
instrumental oldies he recorded from the original 45's. Tell them how good they
are Fred, after all, you are the 'only' one I shared my work with on this list. 

	
Duane W8DBF/W9WZE	


----------
From: WBob <wolfbob@csnsys.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
Date: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:23 PM

Trouble with this list is everyone on here is overage...I keep dozing 
off...

WB

Fred Olsen wrote:
> Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> 
>> I like the 'reply to list' feature because it wakes a sleeping list 
>> right up.
> 
> 
> Hey Bob!  It's Duane's fault - let's blame HIM!
> 
> Fred
> -----
> <><
> -----
> Outgoing checked by Norton AV
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
> 


_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Thu Feb 27 22:20:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (WBob)
Date: Thu Feb 27 22:20:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
References: <200302280143.h1S1h3W28239@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <3E5ED367.6020003@csnsys.com>

I buy and sell a lot of decks in the high end consumer market. Often, 
when a person sells his personal deck he will also include the tapes 
he made in the 60-80s. These home recorded tapes are works of love and 
often are worth more than the deck. I am listening to a pair of reels 
(6+ hrs each) of CW music from the 80s. Fantastic quality with dbx I, 
good tape and great turntable and a lot of work. Most enjoyable sound 
even at 3 3/4 ips. The Teac X-1000R came with 12 of these tapes...a 
real benefit to this biz..

WBob

Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
> Bob, 	
> 	
> After reading your description to me in an earlier post about all the awesome
> audio gear you have somehow crammed into that one room, all you have to do is
> flip a switch Bob and it will certainly wake you right up OM! As the Coasters
> sang: "Wake me, shake me, don't let me sleep too late!" 	
> 	
> You will know you are truly old, when you get excited about being able to turn
> something on, even if it is just a light switch! 	
> 	
> Duane is now returning to enjoying vintage stereo which was playing a series of
> instrumental oldies he recorded from the original 45's. Tell them how good they
> are Fred, after all, you are the 'only' one I shared my work with on this list. 
> 
> 	
> Duane W8DBF/W9WZE	
> 
> 
> ----------
> From: WBob <wolfbob@csnsys.com>
> To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Selecting Tape On H. Scott Amp
> Date: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:23 PM
> 
> Trouble with this list is everyone on here is overage...I keep dozing 
> off...
> 
> WB
> 
> Fred Olsen wrote:
> 
>>Duane Fischer, W8DBF wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I like the 'reply to list' feature because it wakes a sleeping list 
>>>right up.
>>
>>
>>Hey Bob!  It's Duane's fault - let's blame HIM!
>>
>>Fred
>>-----
>><><
>>-----
>>Outgoing checked by Norton AV
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
>>List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>>** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 
> 
> 



From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Fri Feb 28 17:20:00 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Fri Feb 28 17:20:00 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Teac AN-180
Message-ID: <200302282216.h1SMGMW03588@hades.usol.com>

	
Hi All, 	

	I have before me a Teac AN-180 Doby and equilization unit. It looks quite
complex with all sorts of interesting functions. This one is in excellent
condition and I have requested a copy of the owners manual from Teac.  	
	
I understand that it is used with a tape deck that did not have Dolby and will
allow both recording and playback with Dolby. However, it also appears to have
some FM functions and all sorts of other stuff. Do any of you have any
experience with, or operational knowledge of, this unit?	
	
When it was being sold in the seventies the price tag was $350. quite a price
tag for then.	
	
Thanks. 	
	
Duane W8DBF	


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Fri Feb 28 17:30:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Robert  J.  McKee)
Date: Fri Feb 28 17:30:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Teac AN-180
References: <200302282216.h1SMGMW03588@hades.usol.com>
Message-ID: <03d401c2df79$3400cde0$b01cf7a5@b5z1q8>

Duane, there was some limited Dolby FM Stereo
broadcasting to reduce noise in that medium.
Been a long time ago and I never did hear
any of it decoded.  Some FM/Cassette car
receivers had a feature to allow Dolby decoding
of FM broadcasts.

Bob McKee


----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 5:11 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Teac AN-180


>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have before me a Teac AN-180 Doby and equilization unit.
It looks quite
> complex with all sorts of interesting functions. This one is
in excellent
> condition and I have requested a copy of the owners manual
from Teac.
>
> I understand that it is used with a tape deck that did not
have Dolby and will
> allow both recording and playback with Dolby. However, it
also appears to have
> some FM functions and all sorts of other stuff. Do any of
you have any
> experience with, or operational knowledge of, this unit?
>
> When it was being sold in the seventies the price tag was
$350. quite a price
> tag for then.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane W8DBF
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **


From vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net  Fri Feb 28 20:29:01 2003
From: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net (Duane Fischer, W8DBF)
Date: Fri Feb 28 20:29:01 2003
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Teac AN-180
Message-ID: <200303010125.h211PHW15635@hades.usol.com>

Thanks for reminding me of that Bob. I do remember it, now that you have jogged
my neurons. Well, I guess I won't be needing that feature on the Teac AN-180,
heh?	
	
Gee, with all of these meters, buttons, switches, knobs and various adjustments
I must be able to do something impressive. If nothing else, it looks impressive
just sitting there lit up.	
	
So what is Bob W. going to offer me in trade for the refurbished Revox B77 with
the already electrically checked out Teac AN-180?	
	
Duane W8DBF 	


----------
From: Robert  J.  McKee <mckee137@mindspring.com>
To: vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Vintage-Audio] Re Teac AN-180
Date: Friday, February 28, 2003 5:31 PM

Duane, there was some limited Dolby FM Stereo
broadcasting to reduce noise in that medium.
Been a long time ago and I never did hear
any of it decoded.  Some FM/Cassette car
receivers had a feature to allow Dolby decoding
of FM broadcasts.

Bob McKee


----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Fischer, W8DBF" <dfischer@usol.com>
To: <vintage-audio@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 5:11 PM
Subject: [Vintage-Audio] Re Teac AN-180


>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have before me a Teac AN-180 Doby and equilization unit.
It looks quite
> complex with all sorts of interesting functions. This one is
in excellent
> condition and I have requested a copy of the owners manual
from Teac.
>
> I understand that it is used with a tape deck that did not
have Dolby and will
> allow both recording and playback with Dolby. However, it
also appears to have
> some FM functions and all sorts of other stuff. Do any of
you have any
> experience with, or operational knowledge of, this unit?
>
> When it was being sold in the seventies the price tag was
$350. quite a price
> tag for then.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Duane W8DBF
>
> _______________________________________________
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com **

_______________________________________________
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-audio
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: dfischer@usol.com ** 

