[TheForge] Scrolling Tongs from Tinsnips?

[jerry Frost]

I got you on the time issues, we just added a puppy to mine so I get to
watch her instead of spend more than maybe half an hour at a time doing what
I want to. 

The problem with retirement is it's 24/7, Friday doesn't mean anything and
there aren't any days off. 

Being a club board member is more a life curse than a good thing. Nobody
wants to be a board member, folks just want to go to meetings and such. I
got elected president of the Alaska club when I went to the bathroom during
the first meeting I attended and getting someone else to do the "job" is a
no go. Then again I refuse to do anything I don't absolutely have to, I even
make them badger me into calling meetings to order. However to maintain our
not for profit status there has to be an elected board so I'm in. Our
required board meetings tend to be conference calls and rare. 

You're too nice a guy to let them shove so many jobs on you. Want to be
president of the AAB too? ;)

I think you're misremembering making scrolling tongs from "tin snips" that's
a LOT of steel to move the hard way, upsetting blades back into tapered
round stock is a none starter in my book. Then what are you going to do with
the handles? GAK! IF someone ACTUALLY did it that (roll eyes) way it was a
desperation move or they just didn't know what they were doing. You see that
on the web all the time, people who's only expertise is a camera and
connection put up how to videos all the time. We spend more time trying to
undo the bad ideas they spread than telling people how to do things right. 

The most expedient modifications from an existing tool to tongs I know of is
from Hoof Nippers. If you want flat jaw tongs all you need do is a little
bending. To make twisting tongs it'd take a little forging but not a lot.
Seriously, just straighten the jaws, draw a round taper, reset the rivet and
align the bits. It' about as straight forward as it gets. Drawing round
tapers is a FIRST SESSION EXERCISE!

Hoof nippers are pretty common, farriers replace them when they get dull
like hoof files. They're light weight, medium high carbon steel I believe
probably low alloy steel or you wouldn't see so many forged into tongs. It's
still easier to forge scroll tongs from stock but modifying hoof nippers is
easy enough and it's good steel. Do NOT stick them in the slack tub/bucket
above red heat, they WILL become brittle, normalized is springy enough. If
you want to forge them from stock I like 5/8" round 4140, it's forgiving of
inexpert heat management, makes light weight springy tongs and works very
well normalized after forging. You don't run the risk of micro fractures you
do using coil spring for stock and don't need the skill sets necessary for
evaluating salvaged stock. Or luck if you don't have the skill sets.

You might look into side grip bits, you can use the length of the reins for
leverage instead of twisting them lengthways. Just bend both bits 90* to one
side in line with the reins of course. Does that make sense?

A web search for "Round Nose Pliers" will hit many pages of round nose and
jewelers pliers. Not that these are what you need but the bit shape is
correct and there are pictures out the gazoo. 

A pair of modified duck bill pliers I used many years ago had one bit ground
round and the other left flat, smoothed and narrowed. It worked nicely but I
learned to forge scrolls on the face and haven't used scrolling tongs in I
don't know how long. Other than to demo them. 

I'm a hobbiest with occasional (rare as possible) lapses into doing paying
projects. Been one for better than 50 years now and I'm far from a pro,
especially since the TBI. I may know the stuff but I'm no longer very good
at doing it.

There's nothing wrong with fabrication, I went to school to become a welder
and fabricator. There's a good reason pro wrought iron shops like Yellin's
have arc welders and fabrication floors. Who do you think invented steel
fabrication other than blacksmiths? "Traditional" blacksmiths today sit in
an air conditioned control room sipping a beverage as they watch computer
monitors. Faster, better, cheaper is the only true "tradition" of the
blacksmith. Picking a time period to limit your craft is a personal
philosophical decision. Your shop your rules. (that's a 3rd person reference
I'm not talking about you personally)

If a person wants to work without electricity, use hand tools and all
primitive methods it's a personal choice, just don't gripe to me about not
being able to compete with modern methods and equipment. Heck the power
hammer is ancient tech, been around since humans pumped water into their
fields and noticed it was easier than buckets so they tried making paper and
felting with water driven trips. Water powered grinding wheels are probably
as old as copper blades but that's pure especulation on my part, water
wheels are that old though.

I ain't going to fault you for fabricating UNLESS you misrepresent it as
wrought. THAT will catch a poo storm. ;) I like honest.

On the other hand if you chuck hoof nippers let alone TIN SNIPS? 08 up in
your lathe I'll make derisive jokes about you for years!

I just asked about your work stations out of curiosity. I seemed to recall
nesting anvil stands but I have dents in my head and remember things that
sometimes weren't. Nesting hoods are easy enough and I can see nesting anvil
stands though I MUCH prefer tripod steel anvil stands. They're more stable
and I made mine to slide over the anvil for transport to act as an easy tie
down. The rest of my kit goes in buckets. The gas forge final gas supply
lines are copper refrigerator tubing and need protection but the Buffalo pan
coal forge and blower fit where it's easy to load and unload. If I'm
transporting a gas forge station it'll all fit in the Dodge Journey, the
coal forge gets the pick up truck. 

We're holding a club single burner brick pile forge build clinic in a month
or so. Recently K-26 insulating thermal tiles (light fire brick) have become
available in Anchorage and not only do they have a working max temp of 2,600
f. they withstand the fast thermal cycling of a hobby forge without
crumbling like common light fire brick. Better, old type light brick cost in
the range of $11. each and K-26 "bricks" run to $6.00 each. They still
require a kiln wash to stand up to welding fluxes but that's no big deal,
Metrikote of Plistex are currently popular effective products and Wayne Coe
sells small quantities for reasonable on his website. 

We find ourselves as a club in a similar position. IF I'm reading you
correctly. We're gaining members rapidly, experienced smiths are in the
minority any time we get together. Forged in Fire is generating enormous
interest in the craft and not only in bladesmithing though every boy wants
to forge swords like every girl wants a horse. NO surprises there. ;) 

Every meeting we have a majority of attendees who have never hit hot steel
so I find myself showing guys how to forge a taper so they can leave with a:
S, drive or coat hook after their first time at the anvil. These guys have
zip for equipment and any kind of blacksmithing tool is hard to come by and
expensive in Alaska. Once we get them a propane forge they can afford and
works we get to hold a field expedient anvil work shop.

Just getting these guys geared up enough to start making basic tools is an
effort. I'm NOT going to do things the HARD way to satisfy somebody's IDEA
of how it should be done. Blacksmiths have NEVER worked that way or we'd
still be using stone knives and pointy sticks.

I just looked and there are a number of Youtube videos regarding converting
hoof nippers into tongs, some long winded some pretty amateurish but they'll
give you the idea. Just make the bits fit what you need, scrolling tongs in
this case. I'm not a fan of trying to learn from Youtube videos but there
are some good ones out there and sometimes all a person needs is an idea or
two.

Sorry about all the side tracks and how long winded I get. Later Bruce.

Frosty

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bruce .
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2018 4:42 AM
To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Scrolling Tongs from Tinsnips?

Frosty,

The big deal is *time*.  It took me *one day* at flea markets (where I was
going anyway) to buy several pair of tinsnips.  I don't know where the rumor
came from that once one retires one has time -- *it doesn't seem to
be true for me!**   It would probably take *me* many hours across several
days to forge six pair of scrolling tongs from bar stock.

(Yes, Dan Tull, if I *were *a blacksmith I probably *could *forge such tongs
fairly quickly.  I'm *not *a blacksmith.  I'd *starve *if I were a
blacksmith.  I'm an *amateur* blacksmith, committed to demonstrating the
basics to the public and to helping others learn the art -- which I can do
because I have a broad *understanding  *of blacksmithing, even though I lack
the skill to forge everything I might like to forge.  As I've told Peter
Ross and others, I don't expect *ever* to reach anything approaching his
skill level.  I could *improve  *with more practice, but my forte is in
design -- brain to paper.  My great weakness is hand-to-eye coordination.
I'd rather concentrate on what I do well than to work to improve my forging
skills from "mediocre" to "just okay". )

I, too, make a point to teach scrolling with hammer and anvil.  I find too
many folks seem to think they must scroll over a mandrel -- or the horn.
Even when taught good technique, the beginner often doesn't do a neat job
scrolling, and a pair of scrolling tongs can take a poorly executed scroll
and turn it into something of beauty.  But our toolboxes lack these tongs,
hence the need.

Already, I've come up with a means of *fabricating *tongs *(I'll pause here
a moment while you guys finish gasping in horror and can take a breath or
two)* -- so as to be able to produce six sets of three different types for
these toolboxes.  (The fabricated tongs work well, BTW.)  *And I haven't
even finished all of those -- which I started about six months ago.  *

Unfortunately, the twisting strength required of scrolling tongs, combined
with the desired delicacy of the jaws so they will enter spaces needing
tweaking, probably precludes the use of mild steel for their construction
(i.e., by fabrication), hence the interest in forging them from preexisting
tools.

(It doesn't help me that scrolling tongs could be forged from lineman's
pliers or other tools.  I don't doubt that, but the problem remains the
same:  *How do you do it?*  *What does the resulting scrolling tongs look
like?*)

ANYWAY, What I'm getting from all these responses is that *nobody else*
remembers or can locate for me a description of how to forge scrolling tongs
from tinsnips.  That's too bad because my memory keeps telling me I saw an
article *somewhere (*within the past 22 years)*.*  And I'd like to see it
again if it exists.

At least two of you have suggested grinding the jaws to shape, rather than
forging them.  I may give that a go.  I'm even considering normalizing the
jaws and fixing the half-snips to my 4-jaw chuck or to a face plate,
somehow, and turning the jaws to shape in the lathe.  (*...ducks under desk
to ward off the thrown rocks...*)

Bruce
NJ