[TheForge] Seeking How To info...

Mon Apr 27 11:21:42 EDT 2015

Bruce & Frosty
Thanks for the videos they were very informative. I have done the 'by hand'
method several times
and it works great on copper, like the guy in the video although it took
him about 6 minutes to make one straight line.
The other guy with the machine took 6 minutes to form a bead on a 8" piece
of 18 ga. steel.
So, 2 beads on an 18" stainless strip would take ? 30 minutes? Whatever.
And unfortunately I don't know anyone with a Pexto
or any other kind of roller. We are VERY rural. In the machine shop where I
work (worked,, laid off for the last 5 weeks after 10 years...)
Anyway we did more sheet metal work than machine (lathe & mill) work. I
still have access to the shop.
We have a 10' leaf brake, a 8' leaf brake, a 4' box & pan brake, a 6' box &
pan brake, a 10' shear, a 48" x 4" rolling machine and
a 48" x 3" rolling machine, a large capacity circle cutter, a 30 ton iron
worker, (punch), a 5' x 10' cnc plasma table,
2 big "Do-All" vertical band saws, 2 horizontal band saws, and a whole mess
of lathes & milling machines & radial arm drill presses
and regular drill presses and on and on, but no Pexto machine..... (whew)
The nearest sheet metal supplier is in New Orleans, (75 miles each way) and
they don't shear anything.
Frosty's description of making the things rapidly was inspiring but it
ain't gonna happen.
There is no machinery around here that I would have access to, that would
do that sort of work.
Then there is the client. I haven't met with him/her. This job was referred
to me by the machine shop because they have
no idea as to how to do it. I am sure that the client's idea is to re-sell
(retail) these.
That means $100 ea. That speaks for itself. For $100 the product would have
to look perfect as if it were made in a factory.
SS dog collars are not my forte' and they wouldn't be perfect given the
method that I could use to make them, if I had
the machinery, which I don't.  So, I am just gonna pass on this opportunity
even though I could use the work.
Another opportunity is just around the corner... (he says cheerfully)
thanks for the input.
dave m

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Bruce . <freemab222 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dave,
>
> Good bid, but you need to alter the marketing strategy to make  a $50 "dog"
> collar attractive to the clientele:
>
>
> http://diamondcelebrities.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/dog-man.jpg?w=588&h=455
>
> Also, you probably KNOW folks who have the Pexto machines collecting dust.
> I have three of them myself, though probably not exactly what you'd need.
> Borrow these from a buddy and your investment goes down, though you might
> have to add a case of beer for your buddy in the bid price.  You still
> might have to machine dies, but on a lathe that might not be so bad.
>
> Meanwhile, for those interested, here's a video I found useful when I was
> trying this technique for a project.  This approach worked well for me:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv_ZpDDKkPw
> I also watched something like this one:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuILLaFSLNI
>
>
>
> Bruce
> NJ
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:
>
> > Thank everyone for your input and suggestions. Below is my reply to the
> > shop that asked me to bid on this job.
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > First, one needs a used Pexto machine (bead roller) ($200 - $300?)
> > I found some on e-bay.
> > *http://tinyurl.com/l73249w <http://tinyurl.com/l73249w>*
> >
> > *http://tinyurl.com/pd2sxgq <http://tinyurl.com/pd2sxgq>*
> >
> > They have a bunch more but this is just to give you the idea.
> >
> > Then one needs the proper dies for the machine. I suppose that we
> > could turn our own dies once we figure out the profiles. It's going to
> > take one set of dies to form the bead then another set to close the bead.
> > Time on the lathe, 8 hours?
> >
> > Then you have to learn how to use the machine to produce the product that
> > you want. Scrap blanks and practice time.
> >
> > Then you need to buy a sheet of 22 ga. stainless ($300. range?)
> > Then you need to lay out and shear up the 22 ga.? stainless. (shear, not
> > plasma)
> > If all of that works, then you need to punch the slots for the buckle
> (like
> > a belt)
> > That means buying the correct punch for the iron worker ($50.?)
> > More labor time, layout, shear, punch, dress edges. 4 - 8 hours.
> >
> > Now you have a blank, you will want to form the bead on each side of the
> > blank.
> > If it all went perfectly you would still need to run each blank through
> the
> > machine 4 times x 50 pieces... (time?)
> > Then polish the whole thing. (time?) Then roll into shape of a dog collar
> > without squishing the beads. (time?)
> > And we haven't even done the hook / lock / attachment / whatever to keep
> > the thing closed. (time?)
> >
> > Finally, how much can you get for a stainless steel dog collar?
> > Just pulling a number out of the air, let's say $50. each x 50 pieces =
> > $2500*. *
> > I don't think that anyone would pay $50 wholesale for one of these.
> >
> > In my opinion, even if everything went together smoothly, one couldn't
> make
> > a profit making 50 pieces for $2500.00,,
> > even if you could get the client to pay $50 each.
> >
> > Thanks for the opportunity to bid, but I think that I have to pass on
> this
> > job.
> >
> > dave
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Jerry & Bruce,
> > > I have done the hammer the edge around a wire thing on several copper
> > > fountain bowls
> > > and some small 'art' pieces.
> > > It's more work than I would want to do for 50 pieces of stainless,
> albeit
> > > thin.
> > > The Pexto machine sounds like the way to go. Too bad that I don't have
> > one.
> > > I do however have a lathe and access to 7 more. I could make the
> rollers
> > > but
> > > I would have to make a machine to hold them. That might be fun. It
> would
> > > have to be hand crank.
> > > I saw some illustrations of progressive dies on the internet but they
> > were
> > > for a press
> > > rather than a roller. In this application I think that a roller is the
> > > only way to go.
> > > I don't have any idea about unit price because I don't have the tooling
> > > readily available.
> > > The flash in the far back reaches of my cluttered mind flashed on $20 -
> > > $50 each but
> > > that sounds ridiculous. Yes, I know that you can never base a price on
> > > what "you" think
> > > sounds too high or too low. It was just a flash.
> > > Bruce, I will try to find those books. If I considered making the dies,
> > > what would the profile look like?
> > > You could e-mail a drawing to me dave at magichammer.net  because the
> robot
> > > won't
> > > let us post pictures on TheForge, although we could post it here,
> > > http://www.shutterfly.com/
> > > I am embarrassed to say that I have never used the shutterfly
> site......
> > >
> > > dave m
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:54 AM, jerry Frost <akfrosty at mtaonline.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> In dad's shop we called it "rolling a bead." Pexto makes a set of dies
> > for
> > >> their rolls. They're similar to the fluting dies but are more complex
> > and
> > >> or
> > >> two pass per bead to close it. If you have access to a lathe you could
> > >> make
> > >> a set to roll both edges at the same time making guiding the strip
> much
> > >> easier and cuts the steps in half. Unless I already had a bead roller
> > set
> > >> up
> > >> I wouldn't bid on 50, too small a run to break even let alone turn a
> > >> profit.
> > >>
> > >> Looking back on Dad's bidding process I'd guess the break even for a
> two
> > >> pass per side process like that at around 1,000 units IF you pay
> > yourself
> > >> minimum wage. Do you have power rolls, something you could just feed
> > >> blanks?
> > >> If you could roll them fast enough you might not take too bad a
> beating
> > on
> > >> making the tooling, provided you have your own lathe.
> > >>
> > >> Heck, if you have a lathe sell them the tooling, you'd make a buck.
> > >>
> > >> How much are you thinking to bid per unit Dave?
> > >>
> > >> Jer
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: TheForge [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
> > >> Dave
> > >> Mudge
> > >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 9:46 PM
> > >> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> > >> Subject: [TheForge] Seeking How To info...
> > >>
> > >> looking for "How To" information. specifically, how to roll the bead
> on
> > >> the
> > >> edges of this dog collar. I have a chance to bid on making 50 of these
> > of
> > >> stainless steel. 2" wide x 18" circumference. any information at all
> > will
> > >> be
> > >> greatly appreciated...
> > >> click here for picture of dog collar http://tinyurl.com/mmpa3sw
> > >>
> > >> dave m
> > >> listmom for TheForge
> > >>
> > >>
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NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency
may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do
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