[TheForge] Historical Reenactors

Wed Sep 18 16:04:48 EDT 2013

I would agree with peter that there is a limited amount of kids, at any given time, who are naturally inclined towards this.
In the past, we may have seen more young people working with metal and machines, but for historical reasons-

One- cars used to break all the time. When I was a kid, and buying used 1950's and early 1960s cars, the damn things would go maybe ten thousand miles between breakdowns, if you were lucky. Out of necessity, I swapped clutches, redid brakes, did tune ups, and so on. New cars last 200k with virtually nothing beyond oil changes and the occasional new battery or tires, maybe some pads. So the majority of kids, who in the old days would HAVE to learn wrenching, dont, now.

Two-jobs- there used to be a LOT of metalworking jobs. some of those, we lost to plastics- a lot of parts that used to be machined are injection molded these days, even airplanes are made of plastic (well, carbon fiber, but you get the idea. some of the jobs, we lost to mexico, or china, or pakistan. we all know that story. and a lot of those jobs, we lost to computers. ever seen a kid in cargo shorts and 200 dollar sneakers run 3 Vertical Machining Centers, and make as many parts as 20 grizzled machinists cranking bridgeports can, in a day? I have.
if metalworking jobs paid a living wage, there would be kids lining up to learn machining and welding. Around here, though, mig welding jobs advertise at twelve bucks. no bennies. Dicks Drive-In, the favored purveyor of burgers and shakes in Seattle, starts at twelve bucks too- but they pay some medical, some 401 K, and pay for your community college classes. No big mystery which one kids choose. 

Three- computers are more fun. I know a lot of smart, motivated kids- I have two kids who recently left home, but they used to bring a lot of friends over- there are plenty of kids out there who are not dummies. But they study computers, and get paying jobs, doing things that appear to change the world. A classmate of my son just graduated in computer science from a good 4 year college- Amazon paid him a thirty grand signing bonus, and he makes NINETY THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR. He is 22. If you were him (very high SAT scores, great grades, motivated hard worker) would you have gotten a job sweeping a machine shop for minimum wage, and wait around for old guys to quit swearing at you after four or five years, or go with Amazon?

There are, still a group of kids, every year, who LOVE welding, who cant stay away from machines, and who are hungry to learn. They go on the big internet blacksmithing chat rooms, about once, and find a bunch of grumpy, know it all, homophobic, republican, racist, old white know it alls- and they dont go back.

I know kids who are 20, or 22- who vote republican, even- but they all smoke pot, they all have gay friends, mexican friends, they all listen to hip hop, have tattoos, are pierced, and, frankly, are turned off by the whole attitude of most blacksmith groups. Instead, they are making giant metal machines for Burning Man. 

Most kids today are just not socially conservative, even if they are fiscally conservative. And they look elsewhere for community, once they go on some of the chat rooms. Etsy is full of kids, stumbling around with metal. Burning Man has literally thousands of people who work all year long, learning welding, machining, and, yes, forging. The kids are out there. If we arent attracting them, its OUR fault.

ries

On Sep 18, 2013, at 12:47 PM, Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer wrote:

> OTOH:
> I think that those who remain in smithing and do original work, tend to be self-motivated and kinda stubborn...
> Those characteristics point to a  fairly small minority population for us to draw on. That's probably where we should focus.
> My education included almost no smithing examples or shop classes. When i decided to pursue iron, there was no internet, i was poor , asocial, and the local library was almost no help.
> I'm self taught and had i had internet access, it would have been wonderful and saved me many years of mistakes and blind fumbling.
> Computers are just another tool....Value neutral. What one does with it is up to the user.
> Neglecting to aggressively teach critical thinking, is where i see our school's greatest failure.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 18, 2013, at 10:51 AM, Vincent Nakovics wrote:
> 
> One of my last discussions in defense of teaching history and the importance of understanding the why and what of the establishment of the US took place about 10 years ago.  The eloquent response to my explaining the importance of history and what happened a little over 200 years ago was something like this. What I want Vince is for the school to teach them how to get a job and deal with @#$*&^8^ like you. With that she walked away and didn't speak to me in other than monosyllables unless absolutely necessary for about 2 years. The response was pretty amazing. 
> Her concern was about the new SOL requirements. She didn't have a clue on them nor what her son was really being taught or not taught in school. I don't have kids and had been pretty active in several states about the status of the education systems in those states for about 20 years prior to that. As a Navy Chief I encountered poorly educated young men all the time. 5 years after retiring at about 45 I decided that since I didn't have kids and parents were becoming more and more over reactive in their discussions I called it quits after a discussion with another parent who hit me with the infamous, not my child's teacher, but those other teachers are at fault line. I told him I will no longer be fighting this issue as I have no kids and since the parents only care that their child is pushed forward regardless of the education provided that I hope his children are among the few that actually obtain a decent education, but I don't have a stake in this anymore. He tried to engage me several times afterwards by soliciting my advice, but I no longer get that involved. 
> 
> So I have no idea where the next generation of innovators and engineers will come from. I like to remind people that the guy who developed the computer didn't have the computer. I am not a proponent of the computer as a requirement for basic education, especially in the younger years. It has been my experience, limited though it may be, that it stunts the ability to really use abstract thought processes in developing ideas. Okay I digress and didn't offer much hope for the future of reeanactors. 
> 
> I do know that one problem with reenacting is the intial cost of getting into the events. Unlike the cost of the RenFaires - historical reenacting costs a good amount which is another prohibitor for younger participants. I know some groups let you phase in and others do not. For us as blacksmiths the cost of clothes is minimal compared to many other characters. Our equipment can be elaborate or plain and we do have the ablilty to start small and grow with time, so for us that is a bonus many of the other roles do not. 
> 
> Perhaps, some of the groups could work with schools, HS and Colleges in order to get credit for topics covering the historic periods they are interested in. Just an idea. I am currently  not in a position to follow up on this in regards to a reeanactor group, but I will pass it along to asomeone I know who might have an idea or two on the subject.  
> 
> There's me 2 cents.
> 
> Thanks for having these discussions everyone!
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Vince Nakovics
> 
> Blacksmithing; “Making exquisitely simple items extraordinary and tremendously complex items understatedly simple”.
> 
> http://gjonmarkagjonifund.org
> www.happyhavenforge.wordpress.com
> www.discoveringalbania.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: theforge-request at mailman.qth.net
> Subject: TheForge Digest, Vol 116, Issue 24
> To: theforge at mailman.qth.net
> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:00:04 -0400
> 
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> --Forwarded Message Attachment--
> From: blcksmth at wcnet.org
> To: theforge at mailman.qth.net
> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 11:59:17 -0400
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] OT - dumb? idea -- historical reenactors' "catalog"
> 
> A similar discussion continues within many clubs and organizations 
> concerning the abundance of gray hair in many groups. Our Northwest Ohio 
> Blacksmiths group has more gray hair lately, the amateur radio 
> fraternity is aging, the American Legion has difficulty attracting new 
> members and the antique engine and tractor groups are in the same boat. 
> Attracting younger folks it seems is not easy. Many of us don't have the 
> latest smart phone and we don't know much about video games or texting. 
> Historical things in general do not seem to interest the young folks. I 
> don't think they get much real history in school anymore. I hope someone 
> finds a way to reverse this trend before we lose our hobby completely.
> 
> To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil
> freedom, and political and social happiness, which mankind now
> enjoys…Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown,
> our present republican forms of government – and all blessings
> which flow from them – must fall with them.
> 
> Jedediah Morse
> 
> On 9/18/2013 7:51 AM, Bruce . wrote:
>> I recently stopped by a Revolutionary War encampment at one of Washington's
>> many HQ's in NJ, and what was obvious was how few were the reenactors and
>> how old they were (like, older than me, mostly!).  This is disappointing
>> because it is obvious to me how important such reenactment can be.  The
>> "few" I can't criticize, because I no longer do any sort of such reenacting
>> myself, so can't point fingers.  The "old" can only be addressed by getting
>> younger folk involved.  But how?
>> 
>> (Digression -- I suspect many of the folks who might otherwise embrace
>> reenacting have been seduced -- perhaps literally -- into the SCA scene.
>> Dressing up and playing faux-medieval roles is fun for some, but I have
>> enough problems maintaining ONE persona, much less two or three.  Which, by
>> the way, is one reason I prefer "ghost interpretation" to "first-person
>> interpretation."  I suspect that with some encouragement, even die-hard
>> SCA-ites might embrace historical reenactment.)
>> 
>> It has since dawned on me that younger people may simply need to be
>> encouraged.  It can be difficult to get it all together to do reenacting.
>> You can't exactly waltz into Target and buy the clothing and gear.  And
>> many, if not all, these reenacting groups are REAL fussy about historical
>> accuracy.  That's part of what's so important -- "Washington's troops"
>> won't be seen marching around in jeans and T-shirts, but in historically
>> accurate accoutrements, often even rejecting cotton clothing in favor of
>> linen!
>> 
>> So here's my thought (unresearched to see whether it's been thought of
>> already):  Maybe a catalog could be assembled (think "Whole Earth Catalog"
>> for those of you old enough to know what I'm talking about) that would
>> provide information where to get the clothing and equipment needed for
>> different era reenactment -- and maybe even listing what is needed in
>> clothing and gear for various roles.  I realize that no single list would
>> suffice for every reenactor in every era (Rendezvous, Revolutionary War,
>> Civil War), but a shirt is a shirt and probably didn't change all that much
>> across that time period.
>> 
>> Some of the clothing can be purchased (I understand) from Amish suppliers.
>> Like I said -- I haven't researched this idea, so maybe there exist
>> multiple sources already which could simply be assembled into a master
>> list.  I don't propose printing this "catalog" of course, but simply
>> creating a website.  Maybe it could be set up as a Wiki, so additional
>> contributions could be made at any time.  (Of course, significant numbers
>> of hand-forged items, knives, etc., would be needed, giving an opportunity
>> for some blacksmiths and knifemakers to show their wares.)
>> 
>> Thoughts?  Comments? Volunteers?
>> 
> 
> 
> 
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