[TheForge] Adventures in steel delivery.

Thu Mar 14 10:27:31 EDT 2013

You can't build any road just on top unless your already on a solid foundation.  So if you already don't have a base, your just wasting money.

Before the fancy fabrics, the process was still basically the same as what Frosty writes.  Excavate the top/sub soil to below frost and build your base then add your top layers.  

For a drive, if you have decent, draining sub soil, you might get away with less base depth but clay is not it.

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:11:08 -0500
>From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net (on behalf of Andrew Vida <osan at netlabs.net>)
>Subject: Re: [TheForge] Adventures in steel delivery.  
>To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>
>Can't do most of this Jerry - $$ is the issue.  The clay of the drive 
>gets very mushy when wet.  I will put down the typar and cinch the edges 
>into the clay, maybe using an old fashioned half-round sod cutter. I 
>already graded the drive into a trough about 4" deep.  I will fill as 
>you specify to get the most dense compaction possible and hope that will 
>do the do.  Grade to the road is very gentle - not more than 5 - 7* 
>except at the last 75 feet where it is a bit steeper.  It's the best I 
>can do at this point in history, unless I happen on to that large canvas 
>bag on the side of the roadway with oodles of cash or bullion in it.
>
>On 3/12/2013 5:30 PM, Jerry Frost wrote:
>> Glad nobody was hurt outside of the steel company's pocketbook. Think
>> they'll give you a discount on future orders? Think they're looking for
>> a couple new drivers?
>>
>> Ries has it about right but be aware the conditions at your location
>> will dictate specific soils stabilization requirements. Typar is one
>> brand name of geotextile like Ries describes and probably the most
>> popular in Alaska.
>>
>> What's the gradation of the pit run available? You'll need different
>> gradations depending on water table, FS soils depth and grade. If you
>> have non-FS (Frost Susceptible) soil you're lucky. FS soil holds water
>> so it expands and contracts when freezing/thawing. If it's sticky of
>> flowing mud it's FS. Excavate below ground water by a couple feet and
>> lay your Geotextile so it forms a trough and fill it to water table
>> (ground water table that is) with bone rock, no fines. (I'll define
>> fines shortly) This will form a zone where water can flow under and away
>> from your driveway. Cover the bone rock layer with geotextile and fill
>> in lifts less than 2' if you have a proper vibrating roller to compact
>> it. If you're using a plate compactor fill in 6" lifts and compact
>> thoroughly. (till compactor is bouncing) Do NOT use much water, the less
>> possible the better. Too much water and it'll start replacing gravel in
>> your lifts. A rule of thumb indicator of excess water is free water
>> under the compactor. If water splashes out from under the plate it's too
>> wet, if wet mud forms it's too wet. It should only be damp to be right.
>> However if it's dusty or fines, sand or gravel vibrates loose, moves or
>> just doesn't set up under the compactor add a LITTLE water.
>>
>> Okay, so much for compacting as a general rule. Good gravel is composed
>> of a gradation of sizes that fill the voids formed when particles lay
>> together and do so uniformly. For instance, 4ea. 3" stones laying hard
>> together have spaces everywhere BUT contact points. Fill these spaces
>> with the largest stones that require three pieces to fill the space and
>> repeat till the grain sizes pass a 200 screen, minus 200. -200 is on the
>> small end of fines. -20 is sand, 4 is pea gravel. Crushed -1" is D1.
>>
>> Okay, what a proper gradation does is fill virtually every void to yield
>> 100% compaction and it is as hard a non-consolidated (stone) formatin as
>> you're going to find. In practical terms 100% is a term used to define
>> fill that has been compacted to it's practical limit or good enough for
>> the structure it's going to support. Glacial till is about as close to
>> the theoretical 100% as you're going to find though humans try. For
>> instance most nuclear reactors sitting on uncnsolidated soils are on
>> "over compacted" material done by dropping a 10+ton wrecking ball from a
>> couple hundred feet repeatedly till it bounces on impact.
>>
>> So, lay your bone rock drain rock leaving several feet till your reach
>> OG (Original Grade) and fill in lifts till you reach to within about 6"
>> of finish grade and fill the last 6" with D1 and crown IIRC 1/2" to 10'
>> from the center of the road to the shoulder for drainage.
>>
>> And so ends Doc. Frosty's road building tutorial as recalled from his
>> dented haid.
>>
>> I'll see if I can borrow the ASHTO manuals or maybe check the library if
>> you have questions. There are field tests that will serve in place of
>> lab tests, so long as you aren't building a public road. There are also
>> ways to overdesign to make up for not doing proper testing.
>>
>> Jer
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Vida" <osan at netlabs.net>
>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2013 4:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Adventures in steel delivery.
>>
>>
>>> Our short driveway is asphalt. Adjuster came yesterday and said it
>>> will all be covered, so we're good there.
>>>
>>> The longer driveway is about 700 feet. I will put down typar (sp?) and
>>> do the gravel with fines exactly for the reasons you state. Have to
>>> regrade first. I'll get a bulldozer and fix it... shouldn't take very
>>> long. I used to grade my mile long driveway in about 5 hours.
>>>
>>> We just had the second very wet winter in a row and to be frank I am a
>>> little tired of slogging around in the red shale goo. I got so stuck
>>> in it the day before yesterday I almost had to leave the boots where
>>> they were. Luckily I am too stubborn. :)
>>>
>>> On 3/8/2013 1:16 PM, Ries Niemi wrote:
>>>> Out here, we live on an old river delta, where a big enough rock will
>>>> end up in china if you leave it where it is for a few years.
>>>> We use "road cloth", which is this ten or twelve foot wide black
>>>> porous fabric, it lets water through. You pre-grade your driveway,
>>>> then lay down the road cloth. Then, you dump something like 1 1/4"
>>>> with fines- gravel with the grit still mixed in. After a winter, and
>>>> a bit of driving on it, it hardens up into a pretty solid driveway.
>>>> Sometimes we use "pit run", too- its smaller gravel, with more fines-
>>>> it hardens up even better, but the smaller gravel is less resistant
>>>> to being spun out by car tires.
>>>> Its a LOT cheaper than paving. Still costs money, though- I probably
>>>> have 500 feet of it, with my various driveways- a fair amount of dump
>>>> trucks full.
>>>>
>>>> ries
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 8, 2013, at 9:59 AM, Andrew Vida wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All covered. Got us a rental car and adjusters should be out early
>>>>> next week. Other than repaving the entire driveway, I am not sure
>>>>> how they will repair the damage there.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/2013 12:00 PM, CGRAF wrote:
>>>>>> I am hoping that the house is OK. The dirt can always be pushed
>>>>>> back in
>>>>>> place.
>>>>>> Does the trucking company have insurance to cover any structural
>>>>>> damage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike Graf
>>
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