[TheForge] tornadoes, flood, earthquakes Oh-No ( was Re: Is anyone on-line ? OT: )

[Bruce .]

Well, the thread is marked OT, so OT it is.

I won't rant.  I WILL point out that scientists are human too and have
opinions just like the rest of us.  The main difference is that their
opinions are generally based upon considered FACTS, not just what gets
broadcast by Fox News.

FACT:  Ozone (O3) is fairly stable in the upper atmosphere, unless
something (like freons) is there to "scavenge" it.  This means that
even if it is formed mostly in summer (and I haven't looked into that
assertion), it tends to remain all year.
FACT:  At it's maximum, the ozone hole extended at least to Rio De
Janiero, Brazil. That's hardly "just" the antarctic.
FACT:  Since the ban on freon-like gases, the ozone hole has decreased
substantially.

(BTW, "fact" means something that is true.  "True fact" is redundant,
and stupidly implies that there is another sort of "fact" than a true
one.)

Now a scientist knows the difference between correlation and causation
--- something Fox News does not -- but Occam's Razor says that the
simplest explanation is correct.

If we could just educate Americans as to what science is -- and that
it is NOT a religion with scientists as its priests -- the country
would be a great deal better off.  There should, indeed must, be
scientific controversy, but it should be argued out by those educated
to understand the facts involved -- not by anchors on the media.

If YOU want to participate in these arguments, get an education in the
relevant sciences, then read all you can about the subject -- NOT
limiting yourself to biased reports or ONLY those studies that support
your preconceived notions.  The conclusions of science are not
affected by the opinions of the man on the street.

Now a couple misconceptions:  CO2 DOES absorb greatly in the IR, but
it does not absorb uniformly across the IR.  It's not "black" in the
IR, but deeply "colored".  Hence, if you're using a device that uses a
different wavelength of IR than where CO2 absorbs, it's not going to
be affected by CO2.  Many people probably don't realize that MOST
gases absorb in the IR.  O2 absorbs so much that it has to be excluded
from IR spectrophotometers.  Water also must be excluded, but for
other reasons as that.  However, oxygen is essentially constant in the
atmosphere, and water is so highly variable (mostly not much there,
but there gangbusters when it is there) that it factors very little as
a "greenhouse gas".  By contrast, CO2 is a steadily rising fraction,
according to many studies.

I'm not sure why Frosty thinks freon bonds to carbon.  Halogens do,
but not freon.  OTOH, ozone is fairly reactive -- it is used to break
double bonds in carbon chains, and those bonds are fairly stable.  It
is no surprise that ozone would react with freon.

I don't like the term "global warming".  The correct term would be
"global heating".  There's a difference.  You can heat some things
without changing their temperature.  Ice is a good example.  You heat
it and heat it and it melts and melts, but its temperature doesn't
change above 32F.  When all the ice on the planet has melted, THEN
we'll get global warming.  Perish the thought.

Now, if you want to get on your high horse about Science as an
Institution -- better start bitching about scientific publications.
Look into the cost of subscribing to ONE scientific journal.  It will
be at LEAST $150 per year, and probably a LOT more than that.  The
content is available on-line, for the most part, but not to YOU!  From
a practical standpoint, the only ways you can access the scientific
literature is (1) to be bloody rich and to pay for access, (2) to get
access through a university (which gets special, lower rates), or (3)
to get access through a corporation -- that is bloody rich and pays
for access.  You and I effectively do NOT have access to the
scientific literature.  Oh, you can show up at Rutgers or another
state university and possibly use their collection, but don't expect
to check anything out or be able to view from home.  If there's a
conspiracy in Science (the institution), this is it.  The publishers
want to make their money and do it by controlling the information that
scientists PAID THEM to publish.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer
<artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
> Thanks for doing this thankless duty Dave!
> ( was that an oxymoron?)
> We'd run amuck without you.
>
> On Nov 15, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Dave Mudge wrote:
>
> I'm not angry, Just don't want any politics or religion
> on an ART / METAL / NORMAL B.S. e-mail list.
> Admittedly, Frosty's rant was a little off topic but he
> has been here a long time and has provided more
> good energy to the list than most.
> Besides that, opinions are like noses, everybody has one.
>
> your ever watchful list mom,
> dave m
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer
> <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>>
>> Oh Jerry;
>> Who is going to believe someone from Alaska
>> dismissing the concept of global warming?
>> Grin!!
>> That's all i dare say under the Listmom's glower.
>>
>>
> (SNIP!)
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-- 
Bruce
NJ