[TheForge] tornadoes, flood, earthquakes Oh-No ( was Re: Is anyone on-line ? OT: )

Thu Nov 15 18:54:40 EST 2012

Oh Jerry;
Who is going to believe someone from Alaska
dismissing the concept of global warming?  
 Grin!!
That's all i dare say under the Listmom's glower.

On Nov 15, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Jerry Frost wrote:

the whole "we're responsible" attitude is pretty egotistical don't you 
think? Have you looked at the raw data? Take the "hole in the ozone!!!" 
scare. When was it first observed? Say early early 20th cent. What is ozone? 
O3 is a photo chemical made by the interference of oxy to UV. So where does 
the hole happen and when? Above the arctic circle mid winter is where and 
when, at the point and time the atmosphere is receiving the least amount of 
UV.

CO2 a "green house gas? Ever do an experiment? I found my IR remote had much 
better range when shined through a piece of black ABS pipe that had been 
purged and filled with CO2. Yeah, there were clear plastic endes glued on. 
Darned remote would change chanels and more from the full length of my 55' 
mobile home's hall after bouncing off a piece of white paper to make the 
turn to the TV.

Elevated levels of CO2 in the atmosphere? What's elevated and where are they 
measuring it? The EPA and a couple environmental organizations installed 
sophisticated sensor sites in Anchorage to record the dangerously high 
levels of exhaust. They were installed at the lowest elevations, in little 
vallies, right next to the bussiest streets with the least wind movement 
possible in the city. Gee wonder why exhaust was elevated under those 
(contrived?) test conditions? When asked EPA said outright that if they set 
the instruments in other places they couldn't read the high levels folk just 
KNEW had to be there.

Oh yeah, Earth's atmosphere. The same dendrochronological studies reach back 
many millions of years, petrified wood is a terrific recording of tree rings 
some coal can be read but it's a lot harder than just slicing, polishing and 
taking a scale to the rings. Anyway, my point being what causes what? Some 
300,000,000 + years of recorded data shows a long lag time between CO2 rise 
and temperature rises but not the way that's being sold. Temp seems to raise 
before CO2 levels. In this day and age a researcher is NOT going to get 
funding saying THAT! Oh goodness NO, can't have that get around. Same story 
for methane. The stuff's a decomposition gas and formation accelerates with 
warmer weather, not the other way around.

Global warming going to do what? Destroy . . . Earth? Forests? Critters? . . 
. Make weather worse? Uh, Wasn't the carbonacious epoch the most productive 
period of plant growth? Weren't it's average temps sort of 7-10*f warmer? 
CO2 levels higher? I think the plants probably did okay and the critters 
tended to be giants and really REALLY plentiful. Can't have giant insects 
like dragon flies with 4-5' wingspans unless there's more oxy in the 
atmosphere, their lungs aren't very efficient so they need high test air. 
Seems one of the latest theories has some darned good arguments for the ages 
of dinosaurs having elevated levels of CO2 and O2 in the atmosphere. It's 
the best answer so far for how such large critters could survive. The jury's 
still out on the dinosaurs so I'm watching and waiting.

Making storms worse? That one I don't know I haven't seen enough raw data to 
form an opinion. There are good arguments for warmer weather being calmer on 
average though. Storms like any air movement is generated by temperature 
differences, has to be warm in one place and cool in another. So does it 
make any sense if the entire globe warms up storms would get stronger? Sure 
there is more energy but it tends to be more distributed, especially if the 
poles warm up. Less differential, less wind. I can't endorse either side so 
I'm watching.

Oh yeah, killing the forests is depleting the O2!!!! Uh, didn't take or 
remember some courses in Jr. highschool and highscool? Earth's atmosphere 
owes it's high (20% is really HIGH) oxy levels to plankton, not trees. I'm 
not saying kill trees at will (though I do have reason<grin>) I generally 
like trees and the air does smell  better in the forest, solong as you don't 
mind the smell of mold and rot.

So, what's the motive for some of these really dumb assertions? Well, it 
could be the power to get folk to do what you want, people can get into the 
habit and the next thing they know they're your "army.' Okay, maybe but I 
tend to think "follow the Money" is more likely, well more common say. 
Here's an example: Ozone depletion is caused by . . . GASP FREON!!!! Uh, 
okay but isn't freon a really complex, heavy and stable molecule? Does it 
bond with oxy? Not that my limited high school chemistry class memory 
serves. REacts and bonds with carbon like a hungry dog and hotdogs but not 
oxy. Same for teflon but more so, they coat pans and stuff with teflon 
because it DOESN'T stick to other stuff.

The money trail? Could there be some coincidence in the patent period 
running out on freon refrigerant and the sudden discovery of just how 
"dangerous" freon is to the Earth? Naw, that's just the cinical me talking 
the real coincidence is the company who HAD the patent on freon holds the 
patent on the only refrigerant that's "safe" to replace freon. What, both 
are actually freon, just different kinds? Naw, that couldn't be, nobody 
would believe that nonsense, they'd have to be blind.

I'm a "give me the raw data," kind of guy. I'll listen to opinions and give 
them due consideration but I want to see the raw info. There are a lot of 
people smarter than me and WAY more better educated but I'm not a dolt, even 
missing some brain tissue I can put facts together. Balance a budget and yes 
most of this rant is exactly that balancing a budget. Energy in and energy 
out and unlike many would have us believe you can NOT get energy out before 
it's put in. Period. Throughput goes ONE direction, in THEN out. 
Politicians, social reformers, save the "Whatevers" seem to argue "out then 
in" and are awfully reluctant to outright refusalists where raw data comes 
into it.

Okay, sorry for the rant I must be in a "mood."

Jer
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer" <artgawk at thegrid.net>
To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] tornadoes, flood,earthquakes Oh-No ( was Re: Is 
anyone on-line ? OT: )

> The evidence is that we are pushing things pretty hard and most probably 
> influencing the weather overall.
> That influence is overlaid over whatever weather we would otherwise see.
> We are gambling that there are damping feedback mechanisms that will save 
> our dainty asses, that no one's identified yet.
> The science is pretty clear that CO2 and other "greenhouse" gasses have 
> grown dramatically in our atmosphere and we are probably responsible. And 
> it's clear that those gasses trap heat  effectively. The ocean 
> acidification from CO2  is also a serious and growing concern,
> though the jellyfish are all for it.
> I wasn't saying global warning didn't matter...that influence is in 
> addition to the natural flux.
> I was saying not to jump to conclusions based only on the weather in a 
> small span of years.
> Recently read an estimate that the global warming effect roughly equaled 
> the climate zones moving poleward
> at a rate of 60' per day.  Pretty easy for birds and deer to move with, 
> but really tough on oak trees.
> 
> On Nov 11, 2012, at 7:53 AM, Andrew Vida wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/11/2012 12:44 AM, Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer wrote:
>> When one looks at the tree rings back through time, or lake and ocean 
>> sediment cores, or ice cores...
>> It's evident that we live in real quiet times as far as weather  goes.
> 
> But... but... global warming...
> 
> corporations...

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