[TheForge] Is anyone on-line ? OT:

Thu Nov 8 12:39:44 EST 2012

I have been reading and biting my tongue.

Yep,  The Jersey Shore could be returned to its Pristine nature,  but then
how far in-land  do we make our Government go, making new laws to regulate
the buildings.

But stop for a second... looking South where Hurricains hit more frequently -

Almost yearly,  somewhere along the expansive Gulf Coast...
Hurricaines destroy large segements of homes and businesses  somewhere
between the SE of Texas.. across to Lousiana, Missippi, Alabama  ...
Nearly the entire State of Florida sits  so close to sea level that a
major storm hardly slows down as it transverses the State.

Then there is California with it's high risk building issues.  When I went
to Montana last June for a funeral,  large wildfires had been burning for
weeks.

Alaska has its issues too, so that only leaves the midwestern States like 
Iowa, as the only safe State to build your blacksmith shop.

Dann

> You're missing my point.  If we redefine by law that it is illegal to
> construct ANYTHING on beachfront land where the previous construction
> was washed away by a storm, then the value of that land will NOT be
> high.  OTOH, if someone with money to waste wants to buy the (former)
> building lot and NOT build on it, more power to him.  Maybe he'll go
> there and set up a tent for a summer vacation.  I would have no
> problem with that.  It's permanent construction that's the problem.
>
> The real issue is that the shoreline currently is a constant drain on
> the taxpayers.  When politicians finally get that through their thick
> skulls, things might begin to change.
>
> Nearly 30 years ago, I attended a presentation by hydrological
> engineers, well attended by the public, including politicians.  The
> presentation clearly showed that hard barriers like sea walls were
> counterproductive because they act like a node on a vibrating string,
> and therefore must BE a node (immovable) lest they be destroyed by
> wave action.  (This is only wave action, mind you -- never mind storm
> surge.)  They were specifically addressing the sea wall in the Sea
> Bright and Monmouth Beach, pointing out that it was an exercise in
> futility.  (Not everybody knows that that sea wall was constructed by
> and for the RR that used to run along there.  The RR dumped thousands
> of tons of rock to protect the tracks.  Protecting the houses was
> irrelevant to them.  Blocks of houses had already washed away!)
>
> After the scientists and engineers spoke, the politicians had their
> say.  To a man, they proclaimed that NJ would never abandon the
> residents on the shore, and would REBUILD the sea wall (that had just
> been explained to be ineffective).
>
> I was one of the first speakers after the politicians.  I immediately
> reiterated what the engineers had said, and, speaking as a taxpayer,
> told the politicians where they could shove their sea wall.  I was a
> little politer than that, but not much.  I got a round of applause
> from the people in the audience.
>
> The taxpayers understand the issue.  It's our "leaders" who don't.
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Andrew Vida <osan at netlabs.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 11/6/2012 1:29 PM, Bruce . wrote:
>>> Not BAIL out, BUY out.
>>
>> That IS a bail out.  By definition.  The land will almost always be
>> worth more than anyone could justify giving in taxpayer funds.  People
>> have short memories and, I am sorry to say, often dumber than posts.
>> They insist on living in such places, which is OK by me, but when Mom
>> comes and bites them I see no cause for raping the taxpayers to bail
>> them out.  They knew the risks, or should have, went ahead and got
>> hammered.  Too bad.
>>
>>> Pay them what the LAND is worth.
>>
>> Uh huh, and who assesses value?  The only just arbiter is the market.
>> There will always be someone who will buy such land at a price I
>> probably would not.  That high bidder, therefore, should be able to
>> acquire the land over someone such as myself.
>>
>> Another problem I see is the state forcing sale, which violates the
>> principles of private property.  Bad juju.  Very bad.
>>
>>
>>> What's strip
>>> of sand worth if you can't build on it (part of the deal)?
>>
>> The state has no moral authority to prevent someone from building on
>> privately owned land.  Such a ban distorts the market and cannot be
>> justified on any valid moral basis.
>>
>>
>>> Yes, it
>>> will cost money, but it will save money
>>
>> Save money?  Whose money, precisely?
>>
>>  > and lives
>>
>> Not the state's business.  If people want to live in dangerous places,
>> it is their right to do so.  By your implied reasoning, the state may
>> ban bungee jumping, skiing, hang gliding, ice-hockey, and so on down the
>> entire list of potentially dangerous activities.  It is not the state's
>> role to save lives under circumstances of voluntary action of this sort.
>>   People pays their money and takes their chance.
>>
>>> -- some of those
>>> lives being the first responders who won't have to go in there to save
>>> the damn fools who try to ride out the storms.
>>
>> Nobody is twisting their arms to do those jobs. You reasoning fails most
>> catastrophically.
>>
>>
>>>  If they ever empty the
>>> barrier islands of buildings, they can let nature take its course.
>>
>> Bull.  Because when the barriers are washed away in the normal course of
>> time, then the shoreline becomes threatened again and then what?  Buy
>> out THOSE properties?  Uh huh... and so on into the mists of infinity.
>> Want to live by the sea?  Assume the risks.  Don't like the risks, buy
>> insurance.  Don't want to buy insurance, live with the risks or move.
>> The choices are pretty simple and to ask others to pay for the failed
>> choices of others is immoral.
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>
>
> --
> Bruce
> NJ
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