[TheForge] TheForge Digest, Vol 103, Issue 18
Ries Niemi
ries at riesniemi.com
Sun Aug 12 11:01:08 EDT 2012
YOWZAH! thats expensive.
I actually own a HEBO, but not that one- I have the universal base station, which is much more flexible than that one. And I paid around half that much for it, but it was over ten years ago. And I had to wire euros to Germany, and wait 3 months for them to build it and then send it by freighter to me.
I have a scroll head for mine, and find I use it almost never. I did do one big job with it, where we ran about 800 scrolls from 1/2" stainless round bar, but day to day, I use it much more for other functions- I cant see spending 21 grand just on scrolls unless you use 10,000 a year or so.
But it is pretty amazing to watch it scroll- and you can build your own scroll dies to do most any shape or size scroll with it.
ries
On Aug 11, 2012, at 7:00 PM, Jallcorn wrote:
> http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/3178347554.html
> hebo ornamental machine, $21k in dallas says its new
> just saw it tonite
> james
>
>
> Cindy or James
>
> On Aug 8, 2012, at 7:53 PM, theforge-request at mailman.qth.net wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: pot (Todd Rich)
>> 2. Re: mokume- gane (Craig Schaefer)
>> 3. Re: pot (Ries Niemi)
>> 4. Re: Light bulbs and shop power (Jerry Frost)
>> 5. Re: mokume- gane (Jerry Frost)
>> 6. Re: mokume- gane pt2 (Dan Scheid)
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Bruce . wrote:
>>
>>> I have enameled on copper. Steel requires more attention because it's
>>> more prone to oxidize, but the process is the same. It's a little
>>> like soldering or brazing -- get the metal clean, apply flux (NOT
>>> necessarily the flux you use for brazing), apply glass frit, heat to
>>> red.
>>>
>>> There are lots of books on "copper enameling" out there. Interested
>>> persons should read up on it.
>>>
>> I enamel on silver with mostly clear and opalescent enamels. Fun art. However my teacher got heavy metal poisoning working on a plique-a-jour piece using German high-fire (1500F) enamels. I use Japanese high-fire enamels, and get tested regularly. So far, no blips in my tests.
>>
>> Coloring agents can be cadmium, barium, lead, arsenic, and antimony.
>>
>> Todd
>>
>> At first I thought we were talking about the quality of my work (lamented steel).
>>
>> Sorry Dan, I know you meant laminated.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Scheid" <damales at pollybutte.net>
>> To: "'Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA'" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:40 PM
>> Subject: [TheForge] mokume- gane
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been welding lamented steel (Damascus ) for going on over 20 years.
>>> And I thought of doing Mokume gane. I read that you can use US quarters as
>>> your start press, heat, then weld but could not find anything about if it
>>> needs flux. Anyone got a link or a book on a simple start for mokume game?
>>> Thanks
>>> Dan Scheid
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2012, at 8:21 AM, Bruce . wrote:
>>
>>> 150 years ago there was -- Allaire's Howell Works (now Historic
>>> Allaire Village) did this sort of enameling (on cast iron) routinely.
>>>
>>> The thing is, enameling is melting glass onto metal. There are any
>>> number of tricks to it, and, like I said, it probably isn't worth
>>> worrying about, but it certainly is possible. IIRC, that blue with
>>> white specs was an artifact of the process, not the intention.
>>> Fortunately, it's quite good-looking, so was accepted by the
>>> customers. I have no idea what caused those white speckles. (I
>>> suspect fly-ash from the fire.)
>>>
>>> I have enameled on copper. Steel requires more attention because it's
>>> more prone to oxidize, but the process is the same. It's a little
>>> like soldering or brazing -- get the metal clean, apply flux (NOT
>>> necessarily the flux you use for brazing), apply glass frit, heat to
>>> red.
>>>
>>> There are lots of books on "copper enameling" out there. Interested
>>> persons should read up on it.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Enamel on steel is a bit different.
>> First, you need to use an appropriate steel- regular A36 gives pretty bad results. The guys who actually do enamel on steel use AK (aluminum killed) low carbon allows, which, coincidentally, are the same alloys used for deep drawing, or, making pots from.
>> Second, its very difficult to enamel on a substrate of varying thicknesses- fabricated objects of different sizes of metal usually dont heat evenly, or cool evenly, so that is why you mostly see this finish on sheet metal signs, or sheet metal pots.
>>
>> I have never found a shop anywhere near me that does repairs to enamelled objects- generally, you have to completely remove the enamel and start over, and, since its glass, its tough and expensive to remove.
>>
>> I did know a guy who did signage and artwork enameling. He was pretty much alone in the field in my area 30 years ago, when I sold him a scroll saw, and I cant imagine there has been any explosion in the number of shops doing this now.
>> I think he may have gone out of business by now.
>> I know some artists who have done some porcelain enamel on steel artworks, and I think most of them are using one of only a few companies nationwide that do this, and, obviously, at quite high prices.
>> Here is one such company.
>> http://www.kvoindustries.com/Pages/projects.html
>>
>> I also know several people who have done artist residencies at Kohler, in Sheboygan Wisc, and they have enamelling facilities there for things up to the size of a bathtub. But its a huge industrial scaled operation, and would not be easy to replicate on a small scale.
>>
>> ries
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I don't have any cites but I do recall reading a lot of this in a book about Tesla's inventions more than the man himself. Now I think about it I may be recalling TV programs on PBS but I did read a number of things about him.
>>
>> Jer
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Childers" <ron at munlaw.net>
>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 2:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Light bulbs and shop power
>>
>>
>>> Is there a book that documents this? There were a number of business
>>> people who were ruthless- Carnegie, for example and there is a story
>>> about Ford's repair facility in Switzerland that repaired German tanks
>>> in WWII. Does anyone know any details on that?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry Frost
>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 3:28 PM
>>> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Light bulbs and shop power
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Vida" <osan at netlabs.net>
>>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 5:20 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Light bulbs and shop power
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/3/2012 7:37 PM, Jerry Frost wrote:
>>>>> Yeah, edison was an SOB but Tesla had less sense for business than a
>>>>> beaver
>>>>> has for saving trees,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Tesla was very naive. But he had Edison beaten hands down in the
>>>> smarts department.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No question, one of the smartest people ever, just crazy as a human can
>>> get.
>>> Good crazy though, he just needed a keeper.
>>>
>>>>> such without any help. Heck Tesla was an outright thief, he converted
>>>>> virtually all the profit he owed Westinghouse for AC generation and
>>>>> transmission to build the Wyrdcliff power transmission tower. I'll
>>>>> happily
>>>>> accept corrections on missed details, say Westinghouse NOT being the
>>>>> company
>>>>> that got snookered by backing Tesla.
>>>>
>>>> This I do not recall as ever having read, and to be honest I find it
>>>> less than credible. I may be wrong, but George Westinghouse even
>>>> screwed Tesla in the end under pressure from outside elements.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> I did some side looking seeing as I was darned interested in Tesla's
>>> power
>>> transmission theories. The Wyrdcliff power transmission tower was his
>>> biggest experiment and a success to an extent. The tower required more
>>> than
>>> a megawatt and lit a 30w bulb about 1/2 mile away. This isn't a very
>>> good
>>> way to transmit power, IMHO. He also posited zero point energy and more
>>> practical yet drawing on Earth's magnetic and electrical field currents
>>> for
>>> power, these experiments were more successful than Wyrdcliff but who can
>>>
>>> sell Earth power all there was was initial hardware sales for the
>>> recievers.
>>>
>>> What surprised me was how Tesla got it financed. He convinced his
>>> backers it
>>> would work and they could simply replace the other power companies. It
>>> was
>>> all very vague and he didn't say how much Wyrdcliff would cost, not even
>>> an
>>> estimate, not a close to realistic one anyway. As I recall he estimated
>>> a
>>> few tens of thousands that would come back almost immediately where the
>>> actual cost was a couple few million for such a limited success as to
>>> amount
>>> to a practical failure. After one experiment he just walked away and
>>> left
>>> his backers holding the bag.
>>>
>>>>> In short, Tesla had a better product on all counts, cheaper to
>>> produce,
>>>>> safer, more and efficiently easily moved over a distance and he STILL
>>>
>>>>> lost
>>>>> it. Nobody's fault but his own.
>>>>
>>>> Yes and no. I agree that he should have had better sense and not
>>>> trusted the likes of vermin such as Edison, but that does not justify
>>>> the outright theft that was perpetrated against him. We can assign
>>>> guilt to all sides on this one, methinks.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh yeah, there's plenty of blame to spread on all sides. Edison and
>>> Westinghouse had similar phylosiphies where profit should go; very
>>> victorian
>>> gentlemen both. I think theft is a matter of perspective seeing as Tesla
>>>
>>> made no effort to hold onto his interest in AC and the rest. He as much
>>> gave
>>> it all away as had it stolen. I see similar thinking in the final
>>> results as
>>> who paid for Wyrdcliff and some of his odder research, say the Tesla
>>> death
>>> ray. He spent several happy years trying to get that to work at someone
>>> elses expense.
>>>
>>> I have no way to even estimate who came out ahead outside of us, the
>>> ones
>>> who have electrified homes and shops. I feel good about the results
>>> myself.
>>>
>>> Jer
>>>
>>
>>
>> I've done quarter mokume for fun and class demos. Don't worry about copper in your forge, I haven't found any metal contaminants that prevent forge welding even though most of the old books warn about it. This process is properly called "difussion welding" just like forge welding. I won't get into what's going on with HOT electrons and valence shells but it's pretty cool.
>>
>> My method is simple, I made a 4 bolt clamp, two pieces of 1/4" strap stock with 1/4" holes in the corners with just enough clearance to lay quarters between the bolts. The next step isn't necessary but I give the quarters a good solid smack on the anvil to flatten the strikings "face and obverse features" to increase the initial contact area. Next I clamp a stack in the clamp good and solid, a bit shy of stripping the bolts is a tad much but if you can get away with it, tighter is better.
>>
>> Nest pop it in the forge and bring it to a sweatin heat, the sides of the stack will look just on the verge of liquidity though it's a way from liquidus. It'll be a little shimmery and look wet. You can take two courses at this point, you can pull it out and smack it, I use a small block on the anvil and a set hammer so I don't hit the bolts. The other course is to just let it sit and sweat. Something that does help but isn't necessary is a very light dusting of borax between the coins.
>>
>> Do keep a close eye on the stack when it starts getting close to sweating heat, sure it's below liquidus but not a lot, I know I have puddles of nickle/copper under the floor of my forge. Now, how you manipulate the billet to control the pattern is your turn to experiment and let us know how things work please. As a start, you can fold and refuse for a random pattern. You can grind or drill depressions and forge flat to gring out the lamina. One I like is rolling it "jelly roll" fashion and after fusing it into a solid billet flatten it on end, this can give you some really dool spiral patterns. You can invert the cut and drill method by forging the billet into depressions to raise a pattern and then grinding it flat.
>>
>> There are all komds of things you can do to mokume for effects. The most knowledgeable person I know personally is Jim Binnion and he can be contacted with a simple search online. http://mokume-gane.com Tell him I sent ya, not that it'll do you any good but it shouldn't hurt . . . too much. <grin> Deb and I wear wedding bands by Him, White gold, red gold, yellow gold and silver, in a twist pattern. He formed the billet, twisted it then sawed it in half so Deb and my ring are mirror patterns of the exact same pattern, like sawing a bord and flipping the halves.
>>
>> Range around his site and you'll see some truly amazing examples of mokume gane, one of my favorites is the pure iron and gold tea pot.
>>
>> Jer
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Scheid" <damales at pollybutte.net>
>> To: "'Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA'" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:40 PM
>> Subject: [TheForge] mokume- gane
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been welding lamented steel (Damascus ) for going on over 20 years.
>>> And I thought of doing Mokume gane. I read that you can use US quarters as
>>> your start press, heat, then weld but could not find anything about if it
>>> needs flux. Anyone got a link or a book on a simple start for mokume game?
>>> Thanks
>>> Dan Scheid
>>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks to the group for the great responses .I have a few more question .
>> using 10 bucks in quarters to get about 1 cubic inch of stock seem pricey to
>> start out. So my question is can you use shim stock? And if so what material
>> and gauge would you recommend? Would love 3 or more colors but learners
>> can't be choosers
>> Dan Scheid
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry Frost
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:43 PM
>> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] mokume- gane
>>
>> I've done quarter mokume for fun and class demos. Don't worry about copper
>> in your forge, I haven't found any metal contaminants that prevent forge
>> welding even though most of the old books warn about it. This process is
>> properly called "difussion welding" just like forge welding. I won't get
>> into what's going on with HOT electrons and valence shells but it's pretty
>> cool.
>>
>> My method is simple, I made a 4 bolt clamp, two pieces of 1/4" strap stock
>> with 1/4" holes in the corners with just enough clearance to lay quarters
>> between the bolts. The next step isn't necessary but I give the quarters a
>> good solid smack on the anvil to flatten the strikings "face and obverse
>> features" to increase the initial contact area. Next I clamp a stack in the
>> clamp good and solid, a bit shy of stripping the bolts is a tad much but if
>> you can get away with it, tighter is better.
>>
>> Nest pop it in the forge and bring it to a sweatin heat, the sides of the
>> stack will look just on the verge of liquidity though it's a way from
>> liquidus. It'll be a little shimmery and look wet. You can take two courses
>> at this point, you can pull it out and smack it, I use a small block on the
>> anvil and a set hammer so I don't hit the bolts. The other course is to just
>> let it sit and sweat. Something that does help but isn't necessary is a very
>> light dusting of borax between the coins.
>>
>> Do keep a close eye on the stack when it starts getting close to sweating
>> heat, sure it's below liquidus but not a lot, I know I have puddles of
>> nickle/copper under the floor of my forge. Now, how you manipulate the
>> billet to control the pattern is your turn to experiment and let us know how
>> things work please. As a start, you can fold and refuse for a random
>> pattern. You can grind or drill depressions and forge flat to gring out the
>> lamina. One I like is rolling it "jelly roll" fashion and after fusing it
>> into a solid billet flatten it on end, this can give you some really dool
>> spiral patterns. You can invert the cut and drill method by forging the
>> billet into depressions to raise a pattern and then grinding it flat.
>>
>> There are all komds of things you can do to mokume for effects. The most
>> knowledgeable person I know personally is Jim Binnion and he can be
>> contacted with a simple search online. http://mokume-gane.com Tell him I
>> sent ya, not that it'll do you any good but it shouldn't hurt . . . too
>> much. <grin> Deb and I wear wedding bands by Him, White gold, red gold,
>> yellow gold and silver, in a twist pattern. He formed the billet, twisted it
>> then sawed it in half so Deb and my ring are mirror patterns of the exact
>> same pattern, like sawing a bord and flipping the halves.
>>
>> Range around his site and you'll see some truly amazing examples of mokume
>> gane, one of my favorites is the pure iron and gold tea pot.
>>
>> Jer
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dan Scheid" <damales at pollybutte.net>
>> To: "'Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA'" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:40 PM
>> Subject: [TheForge] mokume- gane
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been welding lamented steel (Damascus ) for going on over 20
>>> years.
>>> And I thought of doing Mokume gane. I read that you can use US quarters as
>>> your start press, heat, then weld but could not find anything about if it
>>> needs flux. Anyone got a link or a book on a simple start for mokume
>>> game?
>>> Thanks
>>> Dan Scheid
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Password: anvil
>>
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