[TheForge] Forge welding

[Bruce Freeman]

As I said above, moderate heat will do this.  (With or without vacuum.)

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Ron Childers <ron at munlaw.net> wrote:
> Just wondering, would a vacuum remove the moisture from borax and leave it in powder form?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bruce Freeman
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:24 AM
> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Forge welding
>
> "James,
>
> I'm not sure about that.  I know that manufacturers do issue MSDS's
> that do  not contain complete lists of ingredients.  I don't know
> whether that's legal, but it is done.
>
> I found the following on the "FAQ" tab on the webpage,
> http://www.20muleteamlaundry.com/about
>
> "How much Borax is in 20 Mule Team?
> "20 Mule Team® Borax is comprised of 99.5% pure borax, a naturally
> occurring mineral composed of sodium, boron, oxygen, and water. (The
> scientific name for borax is sodium tetraborate decahydrate.) The
> remaining 0.5% is composed of trace minerals."
>
> Note that it doesn't say whether those trace minerals are naturally
> present or added by them.
>
> According to Wikipedia, Morton Salt was made free-flowing by an
> addition of a chemical.  "Originally, the company had added magnesium
> carbonate as an absorbing agent to ensure that its table salt poured
> freely; calcium silicate is now used instead for the same purpose."
> If one of those chemicals is used in borax, its effect would probably
> be nil.
>
> It is entirely possible that a higher-melting chemical is present in
> 20 Mule Team Borax.  And I certainly can't challenge experience.  I
> often note that long-time practitioners of an art (especially
> blacksmithing) often know a lot about the practical aspects of their
> art.  When they attempt to explain their observations from a
> theoretical perspective, they often spout nonsense.  But that does not
> in the least affect the truth of their practices.
>
> One more thing:  Chemists routinely dry chemicals at temperatures of
> about 110*C or so (about 230*F).  Usually this drives off all the
> water.  Bound water may be a different story, but that MSDS lists the
> melting point as 144*F (62*C), so I expect this will work for borax.
> (By contrast, the melting point of anhydrous borax is listed by
> Wikipedia as 743*C = 1370*F.)  In my experience, borax foams when
> applied to hot metal -- no doubt because it's driving off the water.
> Less than a red heat fails to melt the borax over the metal, probably
> partly due to the high melting point of the remaining anhydrous borax.
>  So, what I suggest is to dry your 20-Mule Team borax in an oven at
> maybe 230*F for an hour, then cool it in a closed container (like a
> cocoa tin) to keep water out.  This avoids the need to grind the
> glassy mess you get from melting it at high temperatures.  I have not
> tried this myself and am basing my recommendation on experience with
> many other chemicals.  (I am a chemist.)
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 1:47 AM, James Binnion <jbin at well.com> wrote:
>>
>> Chuck I don't doubt there is some discernible difference between high purity anhydrous sodium borate and laundry additive grade sodium borate decahydrate as a flux.  But my understanding is if they add an ingredient to a product it must be in the MSDS. Did they at one time add an anti caking additive,  possibly, but every MD SDS I have seen for it lists just sodium borate decahydrate
>>
>>
>> On Jul 26, 2011, at 8:54 PM, Chuck Robinson wrote:
>>
>>> Since the borax is not USP grade I doubt it is chemically pure but the
>>> impurities are also not listed in the MSDS sheet, as long as they are
>>> not dangerous, toxic or carcinogenic.
>>> I'm not an expert on the subject.
>>> Chuck
>>
>> James Binnion
>> jbin at well.com
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Bruce
> NJ
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-- 
Bruce
NJ