[TheForge] Criminal Background Check
Bob Willman
blcksmth at wcnet.org
Thu Jan 29 11:53:49 EST 2009
I believe that you did not interpret the 2nd amendment properly. It
is because the government is expected to maintain a well regulated militia
that is necessary for the security of a free state and that this militia is
armed and under control of the government - therefore - the only way for the
citizens to guarantee their continued freedom is for the people (individual
private citizens) to be also armed.
The word people is used in several amendments and refers to
individual citizens. You would have us believe that in the 2nd amendment
people has a different meaning. I don't think so!
Bob Willman
Bowling Green, Ohio
The Eagle's Anvil
WB8NQW
-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bruce Freeman
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:32 AM
To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Criminal Background Check
Grant,
While I applaud you for considering the unintended consequences of Peter's
notion, I disagree with some of your conclusions.
1st Amendment specifies "speech" and does not say how that speech is
conveyed. Is shouting "speech"? Is singing "speech"? Clearly yes.
It is a very short step to inclusion of telephone etc. And the govt.
has already curtailed radio and TV freedom of speech, so this merely
bolsters Peter's notion.
3rd Amendment clearly refers to "soldiers", without distinction. And even
so, it does allow for lodging soldiers in your home in times of war.
THERE's the rub! Are we at war or not, right now?
4th Amendment does NOT include vehicles of any sort. If you park a mobile
home and live there, it's your home. If you drive it on the road, the
police may search it, just like they can search your car. I don't think
they need even arrest you first, though I'm not certain of that. Likewise,
your motel room is not protected under the 4th amendment, except, perhaps,
in the rare instance that you use it as your permanent home.
5th Amendment: Your drug argument is specious. Alcohol has been know for
millennia, as have miscellaneous other psychologically active drugs.
However, it is the 4th amendment that applies here - "The right of the
people to be secure in their persons..."
So, let's look at the 2nd Amendment:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Clearly, this applies to a Militia, not to personal armament. The concept
is a town or county or state putting together a militia in which the people
keep their weapons. This does not include the concept of a personal
article. Also, what is a "weapon"? Is an atomic bomb a weapon? I don't
think so. So, where do we draw the line? Currently, individuals are not
supposed to own fully automatic weapons, though perhaps there are
exceptions. This is reasonable because a fully automatic weapon makes one
man the equivalent of a large number of persons not so armed.
In my opinion, there should be controls on hand guns (not that there aren't
already) because they are by their nature principally designed for use for
killing people in non-militia situations. Furthermore, I believe the
Federal government should be intimately involved in preventing interstate
commerce of firearms where the recipient state regulates them. NY City has
had to sue dealers in southern states (successfully, I might add) because
they were conspiring to move weapons to NY, against NY laws. This should
not have to be a civil action. These are criminal actions and should be
prosecuted under RICO.
I really have no problem with reasonable hunting weapons, not that I want
anyone pointing one at me.
I fully realize others will disagree with my opinions. I have entertained
different notions of what I might consider "good policy"
with respect to guns. If you haven't read Robert A. Heinlein's early novel,
"Beyond this Horizon," I suggest you do. As a novel, it's mediocre, but it
describes a society in which ordinary citizens usually carry guns, and duels
are not uncommon. It strongly advocates this policy. But it also shows the
consequences - "dueling" can be used to conceal murder. The faster draw
lives, the slower dies.
Limited insurrections can easily occur, claiming many innocent lives, though
the citizens themselves may very well put them down. It also suggests that
people would be more polite. A very interesting concept, but I expect the
death rate would be much higher than it is now.
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 1:56 AM, Grant Marcoux <gblacksmith at alamedanet.net>
wrote:
> Peter: An interesting idea that civil liberties are to be considered
> in the spirit or technology of the times, with the 2nd amendment
> applying only to muzzleloaders. Applying that logic, you could argue:
>
> That the First Amendment applies to free speech that is written or
> spoken, but not broadcast or stored on electronic media.
>
> That the 3rd amendment only applies to being forced to lodge troops in
> your home, US soldiers are another matter, since the US Army didn't exist
then.
>
> That the 4th Amendment applies to the privacy of ones home, but not
> your vehicle, travel trailer, RV, airplane or motel room, since those
> things were not invented yet.
>
> That the 5th Amendment states that you cannot be compelled to be a
> witness against yourself. Using your logic, modern drugs could be
> administered to secure your cooperation, as these substances did not
> exist in the Founders time.
>
> This could be a long list!
>
> Pete, your argument is a classic example of hyperbole....adroit, but
> misleading. We love you anyway
>
> "They say we should register guns because we register dogs....well,
> nobody's going to register MY dog and nobody's going to register my
> dog's GUNS either"
>
> Grant
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Peter Fels &
> Phoebe Palmer
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:02 PM
> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Criminal Background Check
>
>
> Obviously, the registration of firearms is in contradiction to the
> right to keep and bear arms against a possibly tyrannical govt, as per
> the constitutional intent.
> \As i've written before, this was in the context of the times.
> So, inarguably, a citizen has the right to carry a hand made, muzzle
> loading, black powder firearm anywhere, any time.
> That will make most folks more respectful and polite...police included.
>
> Andrew Vida wrote:
>>
>> Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>>> The nasty principle here isn't that someone's out to get you. It's
>>> that once data is collected, it will be used, saved forever and used
>>> in whatever manner looks good at the time, legal or illegal, ethical
>>> or not, private or public good, profit or not. There will always be
>>> a justification available along the same lines as the recently
>>> shitcanned DC cabal justifying torture because, well, you know, we
>>> really
>>> *really* needed to do it.
>>
>> This is called "leverage". Just look how it plays in politics.
>> Someone runs for office that doesn't meet muster for some interest.
>> The next thing you know, that joint they spent a night in jail for
>> back in
>> '73 makes headlines. Remember Gary Hart and "Monkey Business"? Of
>> course, in that case it was a good thing, but the principle is never
>> good, as far as I am concerned.
>>
>>> OTOH, I have to have a license with a photo (but no fingerprints) to
>>> own long guns. At least it was a physical photo, not an automated
>>> digital database photo. (Not that it makes a lot of difference in
>>> the long run.)
>>
>> But do you have to register your arms in the GWN?
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--
Bruce
NJ
The total lack of evidence is the surest sign that the conspiracy is
working.
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