[TheForge] real tools cost real money (was Re: OT - Advise needed on mini machine tool)

[Andrew Vida]

terry l. ridder wrote:
> hello ries;
> 
> 
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009, ries wrote:
> 
>> Those things are neither fish nor fowl, and they cant swim OR fly.
>>
>> Real tools cost real money.
> 
> i am getting a hard lesson in this fact.
> there is no room for 'good enough' when your life depends on it. the
> oceans and great lakes are unforgiving. they just as soon kill you as
> to be extremely beautiful to look at and voyage on.

	Considering what you are going to be building for, I cannot imagine you 
would want anything less capable and repeatable than a Harding HLV.  You 
can get a used one in good shape for perhaps $10K.  If your ass depends 
on the quality of the parts you make, you'd better believe that it is 
money well spent.

	If you expect to make many identical parts ("many" can be very 
subjective, however, a cost analysis could help you define the term), a 
used CNC machining center in good condition may also be a worthwhile 
option.  Mori Seiki are generally considered as the cadillacs of the CNC 
world.  Hardinge CNC is actually probably a better machine, but it is 
ungodly expensive.  My friend Cornell had several Japanese machines - 
each around $250K (1997) - really good machines and they will last if 
well maintained.  The equivalent Hardinge was about $500K.  It held 
tighter tolerances (< 0.0001" v. ~0.0003), but the cost was just 
ridiculous - another machinist friend had one and the monthly nut was 
killing him.  Unless you absolutely must have one-tenth or better 
accuracy at all times, it just isn't cost effective.
> 
>> Precision in metalworking require mass, power, rigidity, and all cost
>> money.
>>
> 
> here again, i am receiving a rude awakening to the reality of machining
> and being a machinist.

	The Hardinge dovetail bedway is the most rigid of any machine, bar 
none.  You should be able to pick one up for perhaps $12K in very nice 
condition and with some tooling - and that is the other side of the 
story that few talk about.  Without tooling, your machine is worth 
NOTHING.  Tooling tends to get costly after a while.  You should attempt 
to buy a machine with as much tooling as you can get your hands on.  If 
it costs $3K or $5K more than another machine, it may be quite a deal 
regardless of your heartburn.  As to what tooling is necessary, that is 
hard to say without knowing exactly what it is you will be doing.  But 
you will want several means of work holding including face plates, 
universal and independent chucks (a 6 jaw Buck universal chuck, for 
example, is almost indispensable), collets, closers, bed turret for 
first and second operations - shoot, the list can go on - best to do a 
package deal because I promise you 2 things.  First, you will need 
tomorrow things you cannot begin to imagine needing today.  Second, if 
you buy piecemeal new, you will go foogin' broke.  I know this from 
first hand experience.  On this account alone a CNC machining center, 
well equipped with dead- and live-tooling may be your best bet.  CNC 
capabilities obviates the need for many specialized tools that a manual 
machine would require.  Consider turning a precise ball on the end of a 
bar - you will need a ball turning tool.  A good one is perhaps $700 - 
and what if you only need to do 1?  With CNC the machine can interpolate 
a precise sphere with standard tooling - no extra cost incurred.

	Something to think about.
> 
>> In New Jersey, I would think there are lots of used tools around- find
>> an old step pulley J head bridgeport, and a 12" to 14" Clausing, South
>> Bend, Leblonde or similar lathe.
>>
> 
> i am attempting to find some of the euro machine tools on the used
> market.