[TheForge] Borax (Was: A36 vs 1018)

[Chuck Robinson]

Hey Bruce and Andy,
It's apparent to me that you folks are not knife smiths.
I routinely heat treat my knives in molten salt at around 1500 F.
I did, one time, submerge a cold blade in the molten salt.
If I hadn't been wearing protective gear the resulting explosion would have 
ruined my year.
It was a lesson I won't forget.

The Borax on the other hand is never put on the blade till it reaches red 
heat. That is when scaling becomes a problem. By then all the moisture and 
other volatiles are long gone.

When forging Damascus billets, it really helps to be born with 4 hands.

As you notch and fold the billet, wire brush the scale off the welding 
surfaces and try to place granular or powered borax in the folded surfaces 
it is a very time critical awkward procedure.
Sometimes not all the surface  to be welded, gets completely covered, and 
you end up with an internal void that has to be re- welded.

That is the reason behind my idea ,to simply dip the billet in the molten 
flux, and get instant full coverage.

I believe you would also use less borax that otherwise ends up as clinker.

I'm certainly not suggesting this as a general procedure for other smiths, 
and I said that in my initial email
Chuck

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Freeman" <freemab222 at gmail.com>
To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Borax (Was: A36 vs 1018)


> Not only could it be dangerous, as Andy says, it's totally
> unnecessary.  (Unlike molten metal + water explosions, a molten borax
> + water explosion MIGHT be less vociferous because the water may
> attach itself to the molten anhydrous borax without expanding to the
> gas phase.  I wouldn't bet my eyesight on it, though.  If any of you
> explosion lovers care to test this thesis, be my guest.)
>
> I've tried a few times to thwart this tendency folks have of "using a
> bigger hammer" when it comes to drying borax.
>
> It is not necessary to melt borax in order to dry it.  In fact,
> commercially it is often melted during drying, but that is because of
> the fluffing that occurs at lower temperatures, which may not be
> desirable in the commercial product.  Once melted, the product must be
> ground to pulverize it.
>
> Instead, just use temperatures below the melting point.  For full
> dehydration, a temperature of 300 C (~570 F) may be needed, but really
> we don't care about full dehydration.  Partial dehydration can be
> achieved at temperatures hardly over the boiling point of water,
> namely 125 C (257C).  This is the common practice for drying materials
> in a chemistry lab - use of temperatures hardly higher than the BP of
> water.  The higher the temperature, the faster drying may occur, but
> who's in a rush?
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Andrew Vida <osan at netlabs.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Chuck Robinson wrote:
>>> Mike,  I used to do the same thing and grind it up in a blender.
>>> I've also thought of welding a rectangular metal trough to the top of my
>>> horizontal gas forge and filling it with borax. The heat escaping from 
>>> the
>>> forge shell should keep it in a semi molten state, drive off all the 
>>> water
>>> of crystallization. and allow you to dip your billet into it for a thin
>>> coating.
>>> I'm not sure how safe this procedure would be.
>>
>>     Potentially VERY dangerous.  It is one thing to sprinkle borax on a
>> work piece, whether hot or cold - quite another to dip a cold piece into
>> molten material.  If there is any water on it, the resulting steam
>> explosion is nothing you will want to be within a mile of.  You may say
>> "I'll only put in hot iron".  Fine, if you never get tired or rushed or
>> just absent-mindedly dip a cold, moist piece of steel into the pot.  Do
>> as you feel best for you, but be very careful.  Even experienced smiths
>> make errors (remember Paw Paw and the zinc episode?).  I'm sure I speak
>> for everyone here when I say that nobody wants to read about how your
>> face winged away on the firey breath of the flux dragon.  OK?
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> TheForge mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Bruce
> NJ
>
> The total lack of evidence is the surest sign that the conspiracy is 
> working.
> ______________________________________________________________
> TheForge mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html