[TheForge] A36 vs 1018

Wed Feb 11 19:54:02 EST 2009

I know there are a few smiths that weld A36 consistently, but their
skill level in general is so far above mine that they are just a spec
up in the sky to us common mortals.  Around here I only know of three
smiths that almost always get good welds on A36.  I have asked two of
three what the "secret" is and they claimed that they did not know.  I
doubt that I will ever be that good.

David Childress
Rocky Forge Blacksmith Guild

On 2/11/09, Paul N <crosspein at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Thanks for the voice of experience. I guess when I see a spec like the
> ones I cited and expect the "typical" values to be, well, typical.
>
> I suppose I could spring for the $32 and order the ASTM  A36 spec, but
> I'm not sure that will really tell me anything. Maybe I'll have to swing
> by the library and see if I can find it there.
>
> I've been stubbornly trying to find a way to reliably weld the A36,
> maybe that's a bad choice. I figure I've "enough" success with it to
> make me think this can be done, and perhaps I was determined that I can
> find a way around my failures. But with little more than empirical
> experience, I'm probably setting myself up for a lot of frustration.
>
> As you noted, the cost of 1018 has me hoping that I could make A36 work.
> Since I'm not in production, my time at this isn't all that valuable (in
> terms of $$) but it may be time to give up on A36, and stop wasting time
> on it.
>
> **pn
>
> David Childress wrote:
> > In our group there is much debate about A-36.  I know from job
> > experience ( engineer in a tool & die shop) something about a36.  The
> > fact is that A36 is made from scrap and is junk.  Most of the specs
> > are max without min. or min. without max. and there are many metals
> > that are not mentioned  at all that may or may not be present.  Our
> > forgemaster really dislikes A36, but when a found a a distributor that
> > was willing to sell 1018 to us at his cost the cost still freaked most
> > of us out ( about 185% of A36 cost).
> >
> > I have been told that the lead and copper in A36 is what makes it hard
> > to forgeweld.  These are allowed for ease of machining, but due to the
> > processing of A36 they are not necessarily evenly distributed.  So
> > some places will forge weld and maybe 6" down the bar it will not weld
> > at all.
> >
> > I had a diemaker  tell me that once they got a piece of A36 that he
> > could not drill a hole thru.  some other Die maker cut the peice up
> > and found a piece of coil spring that had never melted at the end of
> > the attempted hole.  As another example my daughter made her first
> > knife ( letter opener) out of A36.  Being impatent as she always is (
> > 13 yrs old)  when she got it shaped she threw it in the quench tank.
> > We could not sharpen it (Hrc 68).
> > A36 is just like that.  It is good enough for most structural uses,
> > but you can never tell what it will be like.
> >
> > David Childress
> > Rocky Forge Blacksmith Guild
> >
> > On 2/11/09, Paul N <crosspein at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> OK, I've been reading that PDF that Frosty posted a couple weeks ago,
> >> and I'm about halfway through my first pass at it. (It will likely
> >> require more than 1 to understand it)
> >>  (It was this one: http://www.feine-klingen.de/PDFs/verhoeven.pdf)  And
> >> many thanks for posting that. It's just the kind of description I had
> >> been looking for.
> >>
> >> We should probably start "Frosty's Book Club" discussions, as I'm sure
> >> that there are things I think I understand, but that I've
> >> mis-interpreted. But that's a different story.
> >>
> >> I'm finding the "book" very enlightening, and not horribly difficult to
> >> read. (Although anything even approaching an hour at a time seems to
> >> stimulate the auto-nap response) I had taken a metallurgy class in
> >> college over 30 years ago, but studying to pass a class is totally
> >> different from studying to LEARN. So while I've been exposed to this
> >> stuff before, this time is different and enlightening.
> >>
> >> OK, now for my real question:
> >>
> >> I've occasionally been stymied while trying to forge weld with hot
> >> rolled A-36 steel, and since it occurred last night while I was
> >> demonstrating how to make a basket handle (using 6 pcs of 1/4" round
> >> A36) I thought maybe it's time to ask. I've made dozens of these, so
> >> it's not exactly a new process for me.
> >>
> >> My problem last night was that the person that asked for the demo had a
> >> pretty hollow (coal) fire, but I thought that I'm finally getting pretty
> >> good at this, so why not go ahead with it as is. The first weld, with
> >> all the pieces kind of loose, went off without a hitch. Welded nicely on
> >> the step of the anvil. But when I went to the other side, which I've
> >> always found easier as it's more stable, it didn't take. That's not
> >> really a problem in itself. I've been here plenty of times.
> >>
> >> What became an issue is, now even after correcting the fire, I can't get
> >> it to weld. After about 4 attempts, the ends are now hopelessly
> >> distorted and difficult to repair and I abandoned my demo in
> >> frustration. BTW, I was using straight 20-mule team borax as a flux.
> >>
> >> So, what happens to the metal? Does it pick up contaminants? Did it
> >> de-carburize (there was a little sparking, but not what I'd consider
> >> significant, and even if it did, wouldn't the lower carbon level make it
> >> easier to weld? )
> >>
> >> In the past, when I've had a failure like this with A-36, Usually end up
> >> cutting back the ends to get a successful weld, so I'm expecting that
> >> there has been some metallurgical transformation here. So I'm wondering
> >> if anyone knows what that change might be.
> >>
> >> Since I'm feeling a little more knowledgeable now, I've looked at  the
> >> chemical compositions of 1018 and A-36, and aside from the slightly
> >> higher carbon content of A-36 (about 0.25% C vs 0.18% C) there isn't all
> >> that much difference, chemically. Perhaps it's the inherent grain size,
> >> and with a little annealing the A-36 would behave better?
> >>
> >> (Using references from:
> >> http://www.benjaminsteel.com/Technical%20Data/A-36-properties.htm and
> >> http://www.geocities.com/haimanaua/htdocs/steels/1018.html )
> >>
> >> So, can anyone explain the differences in behavior in A-36 and 1018 when
> >> it comes to forge welding?
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >> **pn
> >>
> >>
> >>
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