[TheForge] Peter Schiffer obituary OT

[Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer]

Andrew Vida wrote:
> 
> Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer wrote:
>> It seems obvious that we are seeing, with globalization, is the 
>> worldwide leveling of wages.
> 
> 	Were we in an "honest" economy, this would be a likely truth.  But we 
> are not.  China artificially depresses its labor rates in order that the 
> world will beat a path to its door for manufacturing.  Try to form a 
> union there and see what happens to you.
There is an excess in the Chinese labor pool and under capitalist 
principles the pay is lousy.
Other countries like Thailand are undercutting them with no artificial 
depression of rates, they are just poorer.
> 
> 	What we are seeing is the destruction of the standard of living in the 
> "west" by dragging wages *down* there, rather than *up* in places like 
> China. 
Obviously there is some of both..But there are a whole lot more of 
them....individual wealth and opportunity have been much better for the 
chinese in the last few years than ever before...civil rights too...more 
improvement than any other major nation in the last 20 years
  This has some effects that range well beyond economics alone,
> the most notable to my eyes being the diminishing of political power in 
> the general population. 
wHICH POPULATION? sorry
  More to the point, this should not be happening
> because Chinese labor adds value to the market chain and that added 
> value should probably be enjoyed by everyone willing to put in their 
> work and abilities, but it isn't. 
Rural Chinese who come to the cities have been able to earn vastly more 
than they ever have before ( 'till the last several months anyway). The 
same is true in India, Thailand etc.
  The power and wealth that this
> represents is being taken by the lion's share into the hands of those 
> controlling the markets - the big players.
Hah! The evil greedy capitalists rear their heads once more!
   I cannot blame them for
> wanting this, but why should be put up with it when it is ruining our 
> ability to live comfortably?
Cause we can't compete very well at present. And everybody seems to love 
Kmart.
Wait..i'm arguing Andy's side again!
> 
> 	
>  > As labor, we are now in much more direct competition with workers in 
> poor countries.
> 
> 	That's the problem - we are really not.  Were this the case, Chinese 
> workers would not be averaging 66 cents per hour - literally slave 
> wages.  I'll bet that the median income is even lower; probably 
> significantly so. 
Yeah..especially if they stayed in rural areas.
  The USA and Europe are the prime consumers of Chinese
> products because the Chinese cannot afford to buy most of what they make 
> for the rest of the world. 
That is changing at astonishing speed.
  Proof of this lies in the fact that the
> booming China economy has come to a screeching slow-down right in step 
> with that of the USA.
Not as fast as our screeching halt by far. They are in better shape and, 
i point out, still loaning us money hand over fist!
   If China were a free market economy, wages would
> have come WAY up as wage competition for skilled labor kicked in.
They had risen significantly.
   It
> isn't happening - 
There's huge reserves of labor waiting in the rural areas. Thailand, 
india  and Indonesia are also bidding for those contracts
there is no free market there or anywhere else.
There are more free market influences in China now than any time in our 
lifetimes, by far.

> Therefore those ninnies who say Rand was wrong don't know what they are 
> talking about because it has never been properly tried in the 
> post/industrial era.
The bush admin was as close as i'd ever like to get.
> 
> 	Furthermore, if the Chinese government were anything better than 
> malevolent, they would be pushing for a significant rise in the 
> average/median income of its citizens.  It does precisely the opposite, 
> the effect being to concentrate power in their hands ever more definitely.
Not at all true...That's crass oversimplification , generalization and 
not supported by the facts.
The power that has been theirs all along is relaxing to an amazing 
degree and is significantly more benign than in even the recent past. 
They have come a very long way from Chairman Mao's day.
China has become astoundingly westernized considering.
> 
>  > That's good for them, but
>> we are used to being at the top of the heap and it's rough on us. 
> 
> 	It is good for government ministers and the very few who sit at the top 
> of the economic heap.  It is shit for the poor slob who works for 50 
> cents an hour and has little reason to expect his life to get much 
> better in the foreseeable future.
Individual income in China and India has improved very significantly. 
You aren't paying attention Andy.
> 
> 	If those in power here were really interested in our wellbeing, we 
> never would have gone to China in the first place.
Way too late..they did that a long time ago.
We thought we could exploit them on a huge scale and corrupt them with 
our clever yankee capitalism. It used to be the dream of conservative US 
businessmen.
Now they are trouncing us at our own game and loaning us the money to 
thoroughly fuck ourselves over...while they hold the string.
   Barring that, we
> should be reading the Chinese government the free market riot act.
We have been for quite a while and they've jumped through all sorts of 
hoops to play our international economic games. They have improved that 
aspect of their society more than any other major nation, by far!
And who are we to read anybody the riot act when we've fucked up so badly?
  Let
> up on your labor or we will go elsewhere and leave you in the dust to 
> rot.
We keep trying, meanwhile they out compete us in heavy industry, light 
manufacturing, education, research, finance, commoditys of all kinds and 
so on. They are now the #2 nation in patents issued and coming up fast 
in research papers published.
We, meanwhile, are going over to hi-def TV and diet snacks.
  But who in their right mind at the top of the US economic heap
> would want to do such a thing when the current situation so greatly 
> enriches and empowers them?  If I were a billionaire tycoon, I'd 
> probably not be seeing a whole lot of reason to empower the people here 
> when I can be one of the boys with a boot on the necks of the common man.
Whoah...you shifting position on me? Makes me dizzy...OK, dizzier.
Equal compensation for poultry comes next!...pf
> 
>   pf
>> A Vida wrote:
>>> Consumer at fault... to a degree, yes.  Artificial labor arbitrage due 
>>> to trading with non-free economies such as China are a far bigger 
>>> culprit.  Free market economies only work if in fact the markets are 
>>> free.  ALL free.  As far as I can tell, none are.  Not a one.  We're the 
>>> closest thing to it and we're not there by a fair shot.  Those who say 
>>> "see!  free market capitalism doesn't work!" are numbskulls who don't 
>>> know the first thing about the topic.
>>>
>>> The way of the world - humans.  Oh well.
>>>
>>> xlch58 at swbell.net wrote:
>>>> Andrew Vida wrote:
>>>>> PlumDon at aol.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>> Interesting  to note that he finally had to take a lot of his operation to 
>>>>>> China. Not because  of the economics but because he could not get the 
>>>>>> printmaking and formatting  quality he wanted here in the states.
>>>>>>     
>>>>> 	And people wonder why we're having economic problems.  Sheesh
>>>> It was definitely the economics.   He couldn't get the printmaking and 
>>>> formatting quality he wanted here in the states at the price he 
>>>> wanted.   I know a lot of printers and all of the higher end ones are 
>>>> struggling.  My wifes family has a very large operation and is known as 
>>>> one of the top quality printers around, doing a lot of work in the past 
>>>> with annual reports and prospectus' (two jobs that in the past, people 
>>>> wanted the very best).  Problem is that print is declining in general, 
>>>> and in economic situations like we have now, one of the first things 
>>>> companies cut is their print budget.   It's well known enough, that 
>>>> another printer friend looking for a loan was flat out told that 
>>>> printers are on a "do not lend list" right now.    The in-laws have been 
>>>> around for over a hundred years, so hopefully they will weather it.  
>>>> Quality printing takes well maintained equipment and skilled employees 
>>>> with an eye for detail.  Both cost here in the US, you don't get it by 
>>>> running a different set of illegals through your business every week.   
>>>> There is still a lot of art to it and every machine has its feel that 
>>>> the press operator learns.  The US definitely has the quality printers, 
>>>> just not cheap.   "could not get the quality they wanted here in the 
>>>> states" is true in a very few specialized areas, but usually they are 
>>>> not completing the idea, i.e. could not get the quality they wanted here 
>>>> in the states at a price that allowed them the profit they wanted"  Not 
>>>> to pick on Peter S, ultimately, it is often the consumer at fault.   The 
>>>> consumer won't pay more than $50 for a picture book, and to get a 
>>>> quality one done it is going to cost $51.  Negative margin.  If he is 
>>>> addicted to quality he has to choose between no product and one made in 
>>>> China. 
>>>>
>>>> Charles
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